Ways to dialogue with people obsessed with church scandals

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victrolatim

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First and foremost I do not condone any type of inappropriate conduct on the part of clergy and all of these recent stories coming to light make me extremely angry. I pray every day in reparation for clerical misconduct and for healing for those who were abused.

My diocese has been hit hard with the abuse scandal and the media has become very hyped and anti Catholic and sensationalized any story regarding the church. I have basically stopped reading the local news sites and any comments on diocesan stories on social media sites.

Regardless of this, I still have family and friends who know I am a devout catholic and bring up the subject when I am in conversation with them, wanting to know what I think or why I am still Catholic (the misdeeds of some of our shepherds do not invalidate the truth of the faith). Of course there are the bad jokes about priests and a few people who are obsessed with everything the bishop does. These are the types that demand the bishop’s resignation or walk around saying “He’s not my bishop”. In my gut i want to say “Yes, he IS your bishop, you don’t have to like him or agree with everything he does, but the church is not a democracy”. I could go on but I’m sure it’s nothing new. Just wondering the best way to dialogue with these folks or just bite my tongue and pray for everyone. It gets really annoying after a while.
 
victrolatim said:
Just wondering the best way to dialogue with these folks or just bite my tongue and pray for everyone. It gets really annoying after a while.
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I like your idea about just biting your tongue and praying for them. You probably already have a good idea about who in your life you can calmly discuss this with, and who has already made up their mind about the subject, and with whom no amount of rationality will sway their opinion one iota.

Good luck and God bless.
 
victrolatim said:
Regardless of this, I still have family and friends who know I am a devout catholic and bring up the subject when I am in conversation with them, wanting to know what I think or why I am still Catholic (the misdeeds of some of our shepherds do not invalidate the truth of the faith).
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To some people, it is simply incomprehensible that someone could remain a member of any church where corruption, especially this type of corruption (victimization of children and the many, many cover-ups), has been discovered. Others simply do not like the Church and use this as an opportunity to drag it down. And still others use this as an excuse for not accepting the Church’s teachings.
 
My husband would simply respond to questions he didn’t feel like discussing by saying, “So how about them (insert name of local sports team currently playing a season)?”
 
We are all accountable to God. Those who have done the unspeakable will suffer the consequences. While we are in this world, it is wheat and tares.
 
I like the sound of your husband 🙂 I hope he is with my mother - two Christian folk who did the best they could
 
I don’t dialogue with them anymore. I find it pointless for the most part. Instead I pray for them and the Church.
 
Remind them that;
a) The bible is quite clear on the topic of sexual immorality (sin)
b) Some/many unbelievers masquerade as clergy. (Not real priests)
c) A huge percentage of the unsubstantiated, unfalsifiable, hearsay accusations have never been tested in a court of law - why? Lack of evidence. Accused priest has died. Accuser eventually recanted.
d) The anti-Church zeitgeist hysteria directed by the sensationalist (atheistic) mainstream media at today’s Church leaders relates to events 20, 30, 40, 50 years old - alleged events over which today’s church leaders had no control whatsoever. In other words, innocent scapegoats. Moreover, for at least the last 10 years, the Church leadership bears no resemblance to the ‘bogeyman’ hierarchy depicted by its enemies. Transparency and meticulous scrutiny are now systemically embedded in every aspect of child protection in the daily Church life.
e) Lay parishioners are NOT accomplices and bear no guilt - no matter what disgraceful coverup action may have taken place. We owe no one an apology for the actions of other people.
f) The attacks on priests and slandering the many because of the deeds (done in darkness) by the few, must be seen they the lens of spiritual warfare. This is an attack by satan who knows that in order to scatter the flock you first attack the shepherd.
 
Lion_IRC said:
b) Some/many unbelievers masquerade as clergy. (Not real priests)
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Are you saying that many of the priests who have been charged with these crimes are not actually priests?

I’m sure it does happen in isolated instances, but the institutional Church is not set up so that an impostor could go to a diocese and be appointed to any kind of ministry (parish, campus, hospital, etc.). Any fake “priest” who would go and set up shop in a strange city would soon be found out — people would complain. And parishes and dioceses often go to great lengths to state that independent chapels (traditionalist Latin Mass chapels, liberal ad hoc “parishes” that derive their orders from Old Catholic bishops, etc.) in their midst are not affiliated with the local church.
 
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Lion_IRC said:
No. I’m talking about atheists who openly admit that they were masquerading as clergy.
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An ordained priest who has lost his faith is still an ordained priest. He may be “masquerading” as a believer, but he’s not masquerading as a priest.
 
I disagree.
Is a bank robber disguised as a nun a scandal for the Church?
 
  1. It appears that they are practicing their observational and critical commentary skills more than their faith.
  2. They are looking right and left, seeing only sinners - but that is what the person next to them sees!
  3. They are not removing the log from their own eyes.
  4. They are not looking up - to the perfection of God and the imperfection of His Church.
  5. Am guessing here, but they probably talk much and pray little.
Although they may not be at risk, that is the perfect plan for those losing their faith or leaving the faith.
 
I may be able to help. I would not say that I am ‘obsessed’ with Church scandals but I have been following them closely for many years. I am not a believer. I don’t usually raise the issue when talking to Catholics but I’m always happy to discuss it when it does arise.

The first element that interests people is that the Church (its members and representatives) is seen by many as itself being obsessed with sexuality. This impression is strongly reinforced by the repeated discussions on CAF about who can put what where and when. So when high representatives of an organisation that promotes celibacy and chastity are shown to a) have been doing the opposite and b) covering up for others, it raises questions about the genuineness of the beliefs promoted by these people. People think, ‘the tree is known by its fruits’.

Then there is the plain difficulties the Church has in distinguishing between consensual sex and non-consensual sex. This manifests itself in the efforts to present child abuse of post-pubescent children is somehow not child abuse. Even the most recent and welcome statement from the Vatican talked about ‘sins against the sixth commandment’ with children. Umm, no, it is not adultery. It is violence against children. The spectacle of Church leaders trying to explain these obfuscations heightens the difficulty people have in accepting the good intentions of the vast majority of Church leaders who are trying to eliminate these practices.

Then there is the issue of homosexuality. To many of us, there is no problem with homosexual ‘behaviour’ as the Church calls it. When Church leaders from the conservative end of things commit calumny against homosexuals by associating them with child abuse (cf Church Militant and the bishops it supports) people who do not share the Church’s view of homosexual behaviour, and even some who do, react with anger. They friends and family are being insulted and oppressed.

And finally there is the less-than-inspirational experience of constant shock and disappointment as detail after detail emerges of cover-ups and harmful actions that have led to more abuse. The Church is not the only organisation the did this. But it is certainly as bad as the worst of the others. This, and believing itself to be the mystical body of the second person of the Trinity naturally increases the intensity of the response.

So here’s my advice to the OP: in discussion with people like me don’t minimise it. Don’t excuse it. Condemn it. Don’t blame others, like homosexuals. And confine your triumphalism (gates of hell etc.) to private meditation. Just say it is a big problem and that everyone involved needs to tell the truth, accept the truth and do everything possible to stop such things even if it means changing ancient traditions of the Church.
 
I’ve noticed that talking with people face-to-face can end up being very positive, even if the person in question has a negative impression of the Church due to scandals (sexual or otherwise).

My main advice is avoid Facebook comments and the like. There is little common sense to be found. Most people who post comments don’t want a productive conversation, they just want to express their anger and hatred, even if it is not always rational or supported by the facts. There’s really no use trying to talk to these kinds of people; they just won’t listen.
 
That’s a really good point you bring up about social media comments and other unproductive discussions.

Whether I bother to discuss it at all, and if so, how, varies depending on who is the other party in the discussion.
If it’s somebody who just wants to go on an angry vent, or be a troll, I will usually ignore them.
Likewise for non-believers who are just looking for casual discussions or viewing the whole thing as some experiment in a Petri dish rather than something emotionally important to me.
It’s not worth spending time with these people.

If it’s a family member or fellow Catholic who is genuinely concerned, or even a non-Catholic or non-believer who has genuine respect for my faith, I will try to discuss with them. If they become disrespectful I will tell them that they need to show more respect or I will end the discussion.
 
I tell people that the sex abuse scandals show us that rank or priesthood does not automatically mean holiness. Holiness happens only when we are personally committed to Christ, and that is open to everyone equally. Second, there have always been and always will be scandals, but that does not discourage me from doing what I can to imitate Christ. Ultimately, each person is accountable to God.
 
HomeschoolDad said:
What “ancient traditions” do you have in mind for potential change?
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Lifelong celibacy. Fixation on ‘natural law’ as if it were God-given. Clericalism. Obsessive avoidance of scandal. Thinking of the sin of abusing children as being sexual rather than violent. Thinking of children after puberty as somehow being adults.
 
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