WCC general secretery blasts megachurches

[Catholic29]

Church chief blasts megachurches

By Porto Alegre, Brazil
February 22, 2006 - 3:49PM

The head of the World Council of Churches has expressed concern about the spread of megachurches around the world, such as Hillsong in Sydney, saying they could lead to a Christianity that is “two miles long and one inch deep.”

WCC General Secretary Samuel Kobia said megachurches - huge Protestant churches with charismatic pastors, lively music and other services - mostly ran on a business model to make worshipers feel good and were shallow in their theology.

Megachurches, which pack in thousands for rousing Sunday worship services, are popular in suburbs in the United States. Most are evangelical or Pentecostal, with few or no ties to mainline churches such as the Lutherans or Episcopalians.

More: theage.com.au/articles/2006/02/22/1140563843279.html

 

[Marquette]

I think many would defend themselves by saying they have “cell groups”–small groups that meet for Bible study and prayer etc.

There could, of course, be “regular-sized” churches that are only 40 feet long but 2 inches deep.

2 Timothy 4:3 “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires.”

 

[shawnbm]

"The head of the World Council of Churches has expressed concern about the spread of megachurches around the world, such as Hillsong in Sydney, saying they could lead to a Christianity that is “two miles long and one inch deep.”

WCC General Secretary Samuel Kobia said megachurches - huge Protestant churches with charismatic pastors, lively music and other services - mostly ran on a business model to make worshipers feel good and were shallow in their theology.

Megachurches, which pack in thousands for rousing Sunday worship services, are popular in suburbs in the United States. Most are evangelical or Pentecostal, with few or no ties to mainline churches such as the Lutherans or Episcopalians."

In response:

I have relatives who attend an evangelical Protestant "mega-church " in Atlanta and I have attended services there on perhaps three occasions. You are correct about the organizational aspect of these churches, but make no mistake there are theologically sophisticated members of these churches who study the Protestant Bible very seriously. They are largely not just anti-Roman/Papist, but look suspiciously at the entirety of “Catholic Christianity” with its sacraments, episcopal hierarchy and liturgical manner of worship. Of course, they have their own “liturgy” and the emphasis is on singing with power! They sing A LOT, and always use state of the art technology. Their focus is often on young high school and college kids who like to entertained during a service about God. They view other churches as “boring”, so I think these churches, at least in North America, will continue to grow in our consumer-driven, entertainment-obsessed society. The Catholic and mainline Protestant churches are losing out and it greatly concerns me.

 

[Mike_D30]

All you have to do is read Joel Osteens book “Your Best Life Now”. And you will know that the criticism is right on. The book is essentially a feel good book. It has little to no Christian content. It basically says if you want to be rich and want a big house keep asking God and he’ll give it you. Everything was about material wealth, and being happy all the time. In my opinion is very dangerous, becasue one can’t base their faith in God on being rich or happy. Terrible things happen to good Godly people. and NO ONE IS HAPPY ALL THE TIME. In fact most people have at least equal parts misery and equal parts joy in this world if you ask me. And a whole lot more have much more misery than joy.

I think this is where a lot of these Mega Churches try to reach their flock. Make them feel good for an hour and hope it lasts until next Sunday. A motivational speaker could probably have the same affect on people.

I have nothing personal against Joel Osteen, he seems like a nice guy. But hearing him interview on Larry King Live, he couldn’t even get himself to admit that Christ died for the sins of mankind. It’s a country club church, and unfortunate he leads into 30,000 people a week into further spiritual bankruptcy.

 

[shawnbm]

Mike_D30:

All you have to do is read Joel Osteens book “Your Best Life Now”. And you will know that the criticism is right on. The book is essentially a feel good book. It has little to no Christian content. It basically says if you want to be rich and want a big house keep asking God and he’ll give it you. Everything was about material wealth, and being happy all the time. In my opinion is very dangerous, becasue one can’t base their faith in God on being rich or happy. Terrible things happen to good Godly people. and NO ONE IS HAPPY ALL THE TIME. In fact most people have at least equal parts misery and equal parts joy in this world if you ask me. And a whole lot more have much more misery than joy.

I think this is where a lot of these Mega Churches try to reach their flock. Make them feel good for an hour and hope it lasts until next Sunday. A motivational speaker could probably have the same affect on people.

I have nothing personal against Joel Osteen, he seems like a nice guy. But hearing him interview on Larry King Live, he couldn’t even get himself to admit that Christ died for the sins of mankind. It’s a country club church, and unfortunate he leads into 30,000 people a week into further spiritual bankruptcy.

You bring up a good point about the feel good aspect of some of these churches and the fact that having “hard” questions asked of the congregation (other than the standard one about obtaining salvation if you give yourself to Christ right here and now) is not something they like to do. That is left to the small group, Bible study and the folks that attend that are more serious about their faith anyway. Furthermore, none of these churches seem to ever cite any other portion of the NT other than the Gospels and the Pauline letters! I can’t recall ever seeing a televagelist or mega-church preacher give a sermon on any of the Petrine letters, James, Jude, any of the Johannine letters (with the notable exception of Saint John’s Revelation, of course). They are awfully big on the “Rapture” and “End Times” prophesy, which eventually leads to an attack on Catholic Christianity almost every time. I often sit there and ask myself; do the majority of people believe that true Christianity has only been around for the last five hundred years?

 

[Mike_D30]

shawnbm:

They are awfully big on the “Rapture” and “End Times” prophesy, which eventually leads to an attack on Catholic Christianity almost every time. I often sit there and ask myself; do the majority of people believe that true Christianity has only been around for the last five hundred years?

Not even 500 years, most think real Christianity started in 19th Century America. That’s where the idea of pre-tribulation rapture and the dispensationalists became really popular (I think it may have started in Britain though), and the idea that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon and the Pope the anti-Christ.

Martin Luther most certainly believed in the Real Presence of Christ during the Holy Eucharist. Now Protestants call Catholics a cult for believing simply what Jesus clearly stated in John Chapter 6 (READ John Chapter 6 and tell me Christ was not being literal, he shocks tha apostles and loses a ton of his disciples after instructing them the y will be required to eat his flesh which is real food to gain eternal life). Most American mega-Church movements practice a form of Christianity that’s been around for about as long as Mormonism.

I will never understand how they throw away 1000’s of years of martyrs, Saints, and Sacred Tradition to just make stuff up like the pre-trib rapture. The Bible is pretty clear that Jesus is just coming back one more time. Not two more times as it would be required for a pre-tribulation rapture.

But I’ll get off my rant to keep this topic on track.

 

[shawnbm]

Mike_D30:

Not even 500 years, most think real Christianity started in 19th Century America. That’s where the idea of pre-tribulation rapture and the dispensationalists became really popular (I think it may have started in Britain though), and the idea that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon and the Pope the anti-Christ.

Most American mega-Church movements practice a form of Christianity that’s been around for about as long as Mormonism.

I will never understand how they throw away 1000’s of years of martyrs, Saints, and Sacred Tradition to just make stuff up like the pre-trib rapture. The Bible is pretty clear that Jesus is just coming back one more time. Not two more times as it would be required for a pre-tribulation rapture.

But I’ll get off my rant to keep this topic on track.

I agree 1000% with you on what I have left in quotes from your post. I am not a Catholic like many here are (I am Episcopalian and, to my way of thinking, a part of the Catholic Church) but our church is like a cousin of the 24 Catholic Churches in that the focus should be on the theology, practice and beliefs of the early, undivided Christian Church, which continues to this day, albeit not in as loud a voice as these mega-churches and AMERICAN evangelical Protestantism. In fact, I personally belileve this branch of Christian belief reeks of the ugliest parts of American culture–emphasis on the individual and her beliefs over corporate worship and emphasis, consumerism, aggressive tactics with in-your-face bravado and a “manifest destiny” zeal bathed in self-righteousness. I know I am generalizing a bit here, but don’t most of the 22,000 plus Protestant denominations in all of Christendom have their genesis in North America?

 

[Jeanette_L]

shawnbm:

You bring up a good point about the feel good aspect of some of these churches and the fact that having “hard” questions asked of the congregation (other than the standard one about obtaining salvation if you give yourself to Christ right here and now) is not something they like to do. That is left to the small group, Bible study and the folks that attend that are more serious about their faith anyway. Furthermore, none of these churches seem to ever cite any other portion of the NT other than the Gospels and the Pauline letters! I can’t recall ever seeing a televagelist or mega-church preacher give a sermon on any of the Petrine letters, James, Jude, any of the Johannine letters (with the notable exception of Saint John’s Revelation, of course). They are awfully big on the “Rapture” and “End Times” prophesy, which eventually leads to an attack on Catholic Christianity almost every time. I often sit there and ask myself; do the majority of people believe that true Christianity has only been around for the last five hundred years?

This is a subject very close to me right now as I am in RCIA coming from Evangelicalism, and I am the only one in my entire family, going back many, many generations, to go Roman Catholic. It is a great embarrassment to them. And when I engage any family members in this type of conversation, especially about the entire history of Christianity not bearing witness to the current form we see today, and ask specifically if they believe that no one was practicing true Christianity before Luther and Calvin came along, the common response is that there have always been true believers through the ages, that God always called “out” those whose hearts belonged to Him, in spite of most “Christianity” being apostate. God knows who truly belongs to him in any age.

Of course, when you try to introduce them to some of the most beautiful spiritual writings of the saints through those very ages who supposedly came from this “apostate” Christianity, or the wonderful, beautiful, wisdom filled Catechism of the Catholic Church, the likes of which cannot be found anywhere else in the Christian world, they won’t polute themselves by even looking at them. The fact that the Holy Spirit has been active and guiding this Church throughout all history, this is something that they would never allow themselves to even possibly concede, it would destroy their whole system of belief.

I feel such immense pity, for all of them, because they are blind. They cannot allow themselves to imagine that all that they have been taught by God fearing preachers and have themselves believed their entire lives, and the beliefs of all their ancestors, could have been only a sliver of the whole truth. It is a crisis of faith they think they cannot bear. So they won’t. They will cling to any argument they can find to shore up their system, no matter how weak they ultimately are. My heart breaks for them. And it breaks for all these people running around from one church to another, the bigger the better, looking for that form of Christianity that has to be out there, the one that will finally make sense and not leave you feeling that something VERY important is missing from your Christianity. It had been the story of my life up to this point, and it is very sad.

But I am very, very grateful that the Lord has for some reason been merciful to me and rescued me from all of that. I don’t know what I could possibly have done to deserve this grace.

 

[Mike_D30]

Jeanette L:

And it breaks for all these people running around from one church to another, the bigger the better, looking for that form of Christianity that has to be out there, the one that will finally make sense and not leave you feeling that something VERY important is missing from your Christianity. It had been the story of my life up to this point, and it is very sad.

But I am very, very grateful that the Lord has for some reason been merciful to me and rescued me from all of that. I don’t know what I could possibly have done to deserve this grace.

I did the Church shuffle for a few years before coming back to the Catholic Church. It is depressing, I would get so excited at a new Chruch and soon become disenfranchised with the atmosphere, and later the teachings. It’s funny I can feel Gods presence in the Mass, especially when I was recieving the Holy Eucharist (I currently can’t recieve it until I get my marriage convalidated), whether there is ten of us at morning daily Mass, or thousands at an Easter Mass. Your connection to Christ in the Catholic Mass, is deeply personal, and doesn’t require laser light shows, and a fully electric rock band to feel his presence and the power of the Holy Spirit.

A lot of worshipping God requires you to humble yourself, admit you are a sinner, confess, repent, and attone for your sins. Stay loyal to God when things are going horrible. A lot of these Churches have lost site of that. How does one remain true to their faith when they lose thier job and thier home gets reposessed? When all they’ve heard is how God is supposed to take care them and grant them wonderful possessions, and they are supposed to be happy all the time? (which is impossbile, and chances are the parishoner thinks he’s doing something wrong, because he isn’t on cloud nine all the time, lifes hard, God said it would be, but it’s also filled with joy) That person would feel like God completely abandoned them, and would probably end up abandoning God. It’s a dangerous form of evangelizing IMO.

 

[Jeanette_L]

Mike_D30:

I did the Church shuffle for a few years before coming back to the Catholic Church. It is depressing, I would get so excited at a new Chruch and soon become disenfranchised with the atmosphere, and later the teachings. It’s funny I can feel Gods presence in the Mass, especially when I was recieving the Holy Eucharist (I currently can’t recieve it until I get my marriage convalidated), whether there is ten of us at morning daily Mass, or thousands at an Easter Mass. Your connection to Christ in the Catholic Mass, is deeply personal, and doesn’t require laser light shows, and a fully electric rock band to feel his presence and the power of the Holy Spirit.

I was just watching a program last night, David Jeremiah’s Church, which is Baptist, and although I do respect Pastor Jeremiah, and I do not question his heart or committment to Christ whatsoever, I realized for the first time, that Christ is NOT the center of the worship service in Evangelicalism, the MESSAGE and the MESSAGE PREACHER is. And the Catholic Mass is the only place I have ever worshipped where CHRIST was absolutely the center of worship, no if’s and’s or but’s about it. I could never go back to the Evangelical world for that reason alone, and I’m sure once I am able to receive communion, that will seal the deal that much more.

After watching that program, I was left feeling very short-changed and knew that no one there understood what they were missing in not focusing exclusively on Christ and what He was doing on their behalf. They’ve never participated in True worship as it was meant.

 

[Marquette]

Jeanette L:

I was just watching a program last night, David Jeremiah’s Church, which is Baptist, and although I do respect Pastor Jeremiah, and I do not question his heart or committment to Christ whatsoever, I realized for the first time, that Christ is NOT the center of the worship service in Evangelicalism, the MESSAGE and the MESSAGE PREACHER is. And the Catholic Mass is the only place I have ever worshipped where CHRIST was absolutely the center of worship, no if’s and’s or but’s about it. I could never go back to the Evangelical world for that reason alone, and I’m sure once I am able to receive communion, that will seal the deal that much more.
QUOTE]

Hi Jeanette -

Here I am agreeing with you AGAIN on another thread! We must be on the same wavelength. I was raised Baptist and became a Covenenter in my late 30s until now–get confirmed Holy Saturday. My husband recently returned to the Catholic church after 45 years. He used to go with me to the protestant church and kept saying it was just “entertainment” and I would get mad at him. Then as the years went by, I came to agree. Yes, the bluegrass group was really very professional, but it was all about THEM. Yes, the skit was really good, but it was all about the ACTORS. Yes, the pastor gave a good sermon, but the usual definition of ‘good sermon’ was in the presentation more than the message. Then a funny thing happened, even before I had decided to become Catholic, I was at the church on a Tuesday for Bible study and walked past a garbage can and in it was the remains of the bread used at the Sunday communion. It struck me then how miniscule the meaning of the bread is in the protestant communion compared to the Catholic church Eucharist where Jesus IS the bread. It was one of the turning points for me. And I kept reading John 6 and you know, I don’t believe John 6 is EVER read in the protestant church. They read the other gospels for communion. I wondered what would happen if I jumped up and said, “No, let’s read from John 6 this time.” Well I knew the answer. I’d have been tossed out on my ear!!! :bigyikes:

 

[Jeanette_L]

Hi Jeanette -

Here I am agreeing with you AGAIN on another thread! We must be on the same wavelength. I was raised Baptist and became a Covenenter in my late 30s until now–get confirmed Holy Saturday. My husband recently returned to the Catholic church after 45 years. He used to go with me to the protestant church and kept saying it was just “entertainment” and I would get mad at him. Then as the years went by, I came to agree. Yes, the bluegrass group was really very professional, but it was all about THEM. Yes, the skit was really good, but it was all about the ACTORS. Yes, the pastor gave a good sermon, but the usual definition of ‘good sermon’ was in the presentation more than the message. Then a funny thing happened, even before I had decided to become Catholic, I was at the church on a Tuesday for Bible study and walked past a garbage can and in it was the remains of the bread used at the Sunday communion. It struck me then how miniscule the meaning of the bread is in the protestant communion compared to the Catholic church Eucharist where Jesus IS the bread. It was one of the turning points for me. And I kept reading John 6 and you know, I don’t believe John 6 is EVER read in the protestant church. They read the other gospels for communion. I wondered what would happen if I jumped up and said, “No, let’s read from John 6 this time.” Well I knew the answer. I’d have been tossed out on my ear!!! :bigyikes:

Hi Marquette!

I agree, we’re definitely going in the same direction today (and at Easter! ). And like yourself, the Eucharist was such a HUGE reason for my conversion. If we Evangelicals could get it SOOOO wrong when it came to communion, then everything else had to be examined carefully, and that’s when everything fell apart for me. When you start reading Christian writings outside of Evangelicalism, especially ancient writings, you find out what you have been taught all your life was so wanting of authenticity, I was horrified. Distressed.

My challenge to my family now is this: don’t read anything for the next six months but the four Gospels. From front to back and then again and again. Don’t pick and choose your passages, read the whole thing. Don’t listen to any preachers, or teachers, or even go to church. Just read Christ. Immerse yourself in Him, His life, His words, His warnings.

You will come away with a different Gospel, one that’s not taught in Evangelicalism today. And the funny thing is this, the Fundamentalists will say BEWARE, that the Roman Catholic Church teaches a different gospel! Well, YEAH, that’s the point. READ CHRIST! It is a different gospel than what you hear from the Fundamentalist/Evangelical pulpit. They’ve lost the ancient Christian Faith. It is so sad. It is just so sad.

 

[Marquette]

Jeanette L:
Hi Marquette!

You will come away with a different Gospel, one that’s not taught in Evangelicalism today. And the funny thing is this, the Fundamentalists will say BEWARE, that the Roman Catholic Church teaches a different gospel! Well, YEAH, that’s the point. READ CHRIST! It is a different gospel than what you hear from the Fundamentalist/Evangelical pulpit. They’ve lost the ancient Christian Faith. It is so sad. It is just so sad.

Ain’t it the truth, though. I lived my whole life with the “all you gotta do is say the sinner’s prayer” and “once saved always saved” mentality. A lot of people are being deceived.

 

[Jeanette_L]

Marquette:

Ain’t it the truth, though. I lived my whole life with the “all you gotta do is say the sinner’s prayer” and “once saved always saved” mentality. A lot of people are being deceived.

I was just thinking about this again today, because I came from it and I know the reasoning process. It comes down to wanting the security without the responsibility. But the Scriptures don’t bear witness to that type of Christianity. We are continually told in some way or another, that the one who endures to the end will receive the reward. It is not as easy as just thinking that I gave a mental assent to Christ’s sacrifice and now I’m home free.

That’s why there is so much resistance to Catholicism, because it requires too much personal responsibility to persevere. I wasn’t particularly happy myself to have to come to this realization. Of course the grace is given to accomplish all this, but my cooperation is required.

But now I no longer have to pick and choose my scriptures to fit my theories about Christianity. The whole of Scriptures all seem to work so much better now. I don’t have to sit there and scratch my head and try to find someone to explain away difficult passages so I can rest easy again.

The hope I have for my friends and family who still don’t understand all this, is that the Lord knows their hearts, and if they belong to Him, he will guide them in spite of their lack of understanding. He did with me, there was nothing special about me that caused me to be led in this direction. It was all Grace. I am sure that He will do the same for them, in His time, in His way.

 

[Mickey]

A friend of mine who was once Catholic, joined one of these mega-churches. One day he asked me to attend one of the services. I politely declined. He told me that I would love it because there is a full rock-like ensemble on stage jamming all the time. I told him that as an Eastern Catholic, our entire congregation chants the liturgy from beginning to end without musical instruments of any sort. Again, I politely declined. He looked at me like I was insane!

 

[Jeanette_L]

Mickey:

A friend of mine who was once Catholic, joined one of these mega-churches. One day he asked me to attend one of the services. I politely declined. He told me that I would love it because there is a full rock-like ensemble on stage jamming all the time. I told him that as an Eastern Catholic, our entire congregation chants the liturgy from beginning to end without musical instruments of any sort. Again, I politely declined. He looked at me like I was insane!

Eventually, he will become spiritually emaciated by all that, and come home where he will get real food.

I’m not saying that all of it is bad, but it doesn’t keep you for very long, it’s like living on appetizers and never having a good meal. It sounds fun at first, but eventually leaves you wanting.

I’m sure the chanting sent chills up his spine!

 

[Mickey]

Jeanette L:

Eventually, he will become spiritually emaciated by all that, and come home where he will get real food.

Oh how I pray that he comes back home (with his wife and children).
It’s been at least five years. I pray for them often. :yup:

 

[Jeanette_L]

Mickey:

Oh how I pray that he comes back home (with his wife and children).
It’s been at least five years. I pray for them often. :yup:

Never give up! Prayer is a powerful thing, a privelge we all are given to use for each other. And our timing is not always God’s timing. We sometimes feel tortured because we don’t see results right away, but our view is limited. Keep the Faith!

 

[Mickey]

Jeanette L:

Never give up! Prayer is a powerful thing, a privelge we all are given to use for each other. And our timing is not always God’s timing. We sometimes feel tortured because we don’t see results right away, but our view is limited. Keep the Faith!

 

[Marquette]

Jeanette L:

Never give up! Prayer is a powerful thing, a privelge we all are given to use for each other. And our timing is not always God’s timing. We sometimes feel tortured because we don’t see results right away, but our view is limited. Keep the Faith!

I know my Catholic mother-in-law was praying for me from 1972 (when I married her son) until her death in 1992. I’m just becoming Catholic this Holy Saturday, 34 years later. My brother-in-law had also been praying. And my husband went to his first confession in FORTY FIVE years last month. Needless to say, his brother was ecstatic!