We are not responsible for our sin

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Bookcat said:
Nope. Does not follow.

We have freedom and knowledge and yes responsibility.

Now can there be at times something that interferes with such - so that it is not something one is responsible for? Or at least not fully?

Yes.

But the exception is not the norm.
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You are either perfect and always make rational decision or imperfect and sometimes make irrational decision. God and you. There is a difference. God cannot sin and we can. Therefore there is something wrong in our nature. That is God who is responsible for fixing the bug. We cannot really help it because we don’t have the knowledge of God to find what is the bug.
Bookcat said:
Sure it does - so long as one remains living in Christ - one is not “living in sin.”

One can by grace - avoid each mortal sin. And remain in Christ. In true life.

And if one does misuse ones free will and fall…by grace one can be restored again to that life.
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Grace just reduces the amount tension you are enduring during the time you are temped.
 
The degree of culpability varies, but a sin always means that we turn away from God in some way. That’s why we have the sacrament of reconciliation!
 
STT said:
or imperfect and sometimes make irrational decision.
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One can be “imperfect” and make decisions that are contrary to reason for which one is yes* responsible* for. For one still had the needed knowledge and free will to make that bad choice.

Such is the nature of a human act.
STT said:
Grace just reduces the amount tension you are enduring during the time you are temped.
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Nope that would not be a true statement.

Best to seek out Catholic works on Grace for a full treatment.
 
One can freely and rationally choose evil. abortion, for example. It depends on what one believes and whether the focus is on long term or short term.
 
Bookcat said:
One can be “imperfect” and make decisions that are contrary to reason for which one is yes* responsible* for. For one still had the needed knowledge and free will to make that bad choice.

Such is the nature of a human act.
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The important point is that we sin because of imperfection not free will. God has free will but He is perfect. That is why He cannot sin. Imperfection means that we lack something to being perfect cannot have.
Bookcat said:
Nope that would not be a true statement.

Best to seek out Catholic works on Grace for a full treatment.
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What other parameter do you have?
 
Michael_Mayo said:
One can freely and rationally choose evil. abortion, for example. It depends on what one believes and whether the focus is on long term or short term.
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Well if you believe something is not wrong then you haven’t committed a sin. One needs to prove that abortion is evil.
 
The point is-

We sin because of free will.

(and knowledge)

Sin is in the will.

No will - no sin.

I do not sin when if I murder someone in a dream. Or sleep -walking even.
 
We can avoid sin while being imperfect, though. We are imperfect but with grace we can avoid sin. I think this is the point you’re missing.

Your opening argument is flawed because you seem to be under the opinion that being rational means that we choose not to sin. This isn’t the case. You can freely choose to watch porn, for example. A free and rational choice. Simply because you enjoy it. You can know it’s sinful yet still choose to do it.
 
sudy said:
We can avoid sin while being imperfect, though. We are imperfect but with grace we can avoid sin. I think this is the point you’re missing.

Your opening argument is flawed because you seem to be under the opinion that being rational means that we choose not to sin. This isn’t the case. You can freely choose to watch porn, for example. A free and rational choice. Simply because you enjoy it. You can know it’s sinful yet still choose to do it.
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A glass of wine or a glace of poison. Which one does a rational person always choose?
 
Your choice is over-simplified. A rational person can choose a glass of wine or can choose 3 bottles of wine. A rational person might also choose the poison if he believes that he is going to suffer torture, for example. Look at soldiers with cyanide pills, for example. The choice was made long before they were faced with the danger.
 
Bookcat said:
Do not understand.
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I claim that grace just reduces the amount tension you are enduring during the time you are temped. So amount of tension for me is a parameter which help us to understand the effect of temptation.
 
STT said:
That is not true but lets buy the idea for a second. Again there are two scenarios here (1) We are rational when we make decision and (2) We are irrational when we make decision. In first case we don’t sin since sin is not rational. We are irrational in the second case therefore we are not responsible for our sin. Do you treat irrational people the same way you treat rational people?

We are inherently ration being. Saying that we could be irrational means that our nature is buggy, we are simply not perfect. Therefore we are not responsible for the bug or our irrational decision.
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We would indeed be responsible for it if the “bug” was our own doing (original sin).

I’d like to know how you arrived at the conclusion that reason alone (our rationality) prevents one from acting against reason. How exactly does the knowledge of the evilness of Action A prevent the agent from executing the action?

Someone posted the question using an Oreo analogy. Being a rational being allows me to reasonably conclude that eating three sleeves of Oreo cookies would be harmful to my health. Yet that alone does not stop me from eating them. I’d still be free to do it.
 
STT said:
I claim that grace just reduces the amount tension you are enduring during the time you are temped. So amount of tension for me is a parameter which help us to understand the effect of temptation.
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And that claim is not correct. That would be a deficient understanding of grace.

There are various treatises on grace to fill in the wonders of grace.
 
The point is-

We sin because of free will.

(and knowledge)

Sin is in the will.

No will = no sin.

I do not sin when if I murder someone in a dream. Or sleep -walking even.

(referring to “committing of sin” - culpability. Of course the matter itself is still sinful in itself).
 
sudy said:
Your choice is over-simplified. A rational person can choose a glass of wine or can choose 3 bottles of wine. A rational person might also choose the poison if he believes that he is going to suffer torture, for example. Look at soldiers with cyanide pills, for example. The choice was made long before they were faced with the danger.
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Assume that the life of person is good and dandy. Why he should kill himself? Because he makes an irrational decision. Irrationality means imperfection.
 
STT said:
Well, you first need to show that my argument is wrong.
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STT, I’ve seen you do this quite often and I’m beginning to think that you’re trolling the forums.

You come up with these absurd theories and each time, after they’ve been soundly answered, you fall back and insist we have to prove your theory wrong, or else it stands right.

That’s not the way anything, let alone philosophy, works. The burden of proof falls on you who would make the claim that rational beings are not responsible for their moral actions.

The power of rationality, or reason, does not prevent someone from freely acting against the information received by the reason.
 
My use of the cyanide pill was a bit lame. Let’s use speeding as it’s a better example. You can drive fast on urban streets, simply because of the thrill, or simply because you want to get somewhere quicker. You can know it’s both illegal and sinful as you could kill someone, but people do it all the time. They make a choice. It’s a decision.
 
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