We are not saved yet? Romans 8:25

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So there I am at Waisenstraße 14-16 in Berlin at The Last Chance restaurant. Hey what’s a guy to do when he is on a walk with his two friends Marty and Al. They wanted beer. I wanted an espresso made with Cafe Llave coffee grounds. The German waitress brought two enormous Roter Ochsen (Red Ox) beer steins. They quaffed half the steins. It was about nine in the morning. I thought, “Ok. This is how Germans drink beer. What do I know. I’m just an observer.” So I continue reading the second reading from the Pentecost Vigil Mass, Romans 8:22-27. I’m using my iPad.

Hey Johnny boy, bring over that Gutenberg Marty shouts. This guy fishes for apples, and uses a new net called inter. This other guy is talking about traveling at the relative speed of light to get to heaven and be saved. I want to show them in black and white that we are saved by one thing alone. Mr. Calvin drops the enormous bible on the table. My espresso spills onto my slice of chocolate cake. Al and Marty catch their steins mid-air and with one motion drain the steins to the bottom and order two more steins. I pay with dollars and the waitress says not nicely, “Gold Mr. Catholic Answers forums. I realize the entire restaurant is looking at me intensely. People are crowding into Zur Letzten Instanz. Time (relatively according to Professor Einstein) to appeal for help from my partners on the Sacred Scriptures thread.” So I ask you gentle reader, why could there ever be any discussion about salvation if Paul clearly states in the New American Bible translation (Rom 8:25) that “…we must hope to be saved since we are not saved yet…”

Why are there any apologetic arguments, why is there any dramatic arguments about salvation, why is there any salvation controversy?

I’m just aching to see someone write a book about the drama of salvation and settle this salvation controversy once and for all.
 
Did you politely ask me for a stone (Google) or a stein (my assumption)? If a stone, should I expect a shower of them on my head or if a stein, should I expect you to order more than three? A stein of Budweiser perhaps?
 
atassina said:
So there I am at Waisenstraße 14-16 in Berlin at The Last Chance restaurant. Hey what’s a guy to do when he is on a walk with his two friends Marty and Al. They wanted beer. I wanted an espresso made with Cafe Llave coffee grounds. The German waitress brought two enormous Roter Ochsen (Red Ox) beer steins. They quaffed half the steins. It was about nine in the morning. I thought, “Ok. This is how Germans drink beer. What do I know. I’m just an observer.” So I continue reading the second reading from the Pentecost Vigil Mass, Romans 8:22-27. I’m using my iPad.

Hey Johnny boy, bring over that Gutenberg Marty shouts. This guy fishes for apples, and uses a new net called inter. This other guy is talking about traveling at the relative speed of light to get to heaven and be saved. I want to show them in black and white that we are saved by one thing alone. Mr. Calvin drops the enormous bible on the table. My espresso spills onto my slice of chocolate cake. Al and Marty catch their steins mid-air and with one motion drain the steins to the bottom and order two more steins. I pay with dollars and the waitress says not nicely, “Gold Mr. Catholic Answers forums. I realize the entire restaurant is looking at me intensely. People are crowding into Zur Letzten Instanz. Time (relatively according to Professor Einstein) to appeal for help from my partners on the Sacred Scriptures thread.” So I ask you gentle reader, why could there ever be any discussion about salvation if Paul clearly states in the New American Bible translation (Rom 8:25) that “…we must hope to be saved since we are not saved yet…”

Why are there any apologetic arguments, why is there any dramatic arguments about salvation, why is there any salvation controversy?

I’m just aching to see someone write a book about the drama of salvation and settle this salvation controversy once and for all.
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It is settled. Baptism is necessary for salvation and you must also die in a state of grace.
 
I think you did not put it into context. In context Paul is saying quite the opposite.

Romans 8:23-26 (We) groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness.

Paul is saying that indeed we were saved but eagerly wait in hope (confidence) for God to complete that redemption. The hope spoken of here is the absolute confidence that God will keep His promise to us. Hope and faith go hand in hand. Heb 11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.
 
thistle said:
It is settled. Baptism is necessary for salvation and you must also die in a state of grace.
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To me this is obvious. Why is there any discussion that we are already saved? And no matter what we do we are going to heaven-- even if we hate God! I don’t understand. What should I tell Al and Marty?
 
I have no idea what all this nonsense about drinking beer is all about but the Bible speaks of salvation as a past event, something that is taking place now and something which will happen in the future.

We have been saved.
We are being saved.
We will be saved.

Salvation is all of these in the Bible - past, present and future.

-Tim-
 
It is not a Protestant idea that we have already been saved. it is in the Bible.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God – (Ephesians 2:8)

What is a Protestant idea is that we don’t need to cooperate with grace or that we cannot lose our salvation.

Again, salvation is past, present and future in the Bible. It was started long ago, we are participating in it now and it will be completed at the end of time.

-Tim
 
TimothyH said:
It is not a Protestant idea that we have already been saved. it is in the Bible.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God – (Ephesians 2:8)

What is a Protestant idea is that we don’t need to cooperate with grace or that we cannot lose our salvation.

Again, salvation is past, present and future in the Bible. It was started long ago, we are participating in it now and it will be completed at the end of time.

-Tim
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What Tim said.

And I believe that the Greek word for ‘hope’ means: ‘confident expectation’? (I am a novice Greek scholar, not an expert. Others may correct me on that, but it has helped me to bridge the language barriers that sometimes exist ((even in English)) between Catholics and Protestants). We were saved. We are saved. We will be saved. All Scripturally the Truth.

Peace in Christ
 
Tim, thank you for your helpful reply. I think the same as you simply because it is obvious to me. We are in process and must depend on the grace of God.

Do you think the cause of fire insurance theology is that the believers who hold to the “once saved always saved” theology have no developed theology for suffering?

Seems to me that if you believe in the Bible alone theology, there is no possibility for purgatory. Why? Certain versions of the Bible are missing those books of the Bible that clearly show the possibility of an alternative to either heaven or hell. There is no middle state for those who die in the friendship of God and yet are not ready for heaven.

My last two paragraphs are not a formal part of this thread, so I do not expect you to reply to this post.

Where I am it is 7:06 in the morning and I have been awake since 4:30. Gotta get going to make it to another day in paradise and earn my daily $41 and nineteen cents.

a
 
TimothyH #9
salvation is past, present and future in the Bible. It was started long ago, we are participating in it now and it will be completed at the end of time.
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Christ has redeemed humanity by His crucifixion, death and resurrection. We are redeemed by Christ’s Passion and Death (heaven was opened); we are not saved until we co-operate with Him. “Faith without works is dead.” [Jam 2:26].
 
Abu,
I ask you the question I originally asked, “Why is anybody even positing that we are already saved and no matter what we think or how we act, even if we hate God, we are going to heaven”. See my original post.

the op
 
atassina #13
Abu,
I ask you the question I originally asked, “Why is anybody even positing that we are already saved and no matter what we think or how we act, even if we hate God, we are going to heaven”. See my original post.
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Precisely because they have been misled by not listening, and assenting, to the reality of truth taught by Christ through His Church.
 
It seems to me that not listening is a good answer. Yet, how many of us listen. I know that I frequently do not.

I think the problem with thinking that we are already saved lies in the problem of pain and suffering. From what I can tell, Protestant theology is unable to explain the redemptive value of pain, the value of participating in the suffering of Christ on the Cross. The theology is unable to posit a middle state of saved but not in heaven - - purgatory.

a
 
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