We are on a Mission from God.....

[CopticChristian]

How often to you hear that the Protestant Reformers were Godly men, on a mission from God…we’ve heard this before…however…

youtube.com/watch?v=c4HZKDel9N0

It is error to claim that the Protestant reformers were given direct mission by God to reform the church requires undeniable proof, otherwise people all over the world could easily claim direct mission from God on all sorts of beliefs, then where would we be? Then each time we thought we were following the truth we would be forever interrupted by men claiming an extraordinary vocation. Is that how Jesus intended His Church to be?

Consider the miracles sent by God through Moses so that others would believe his mission. Also consider the miracles performed by Jesus and the Apostles so that the people would believe their word. Yet the Protestant reformers, despite making the most drastic changes to the Catholic Church since its founding, have never shown a miracle or any other sign to prove their mission, as would have occurred elsewhere in Scripture with such a drastic change to the faith. Jesus did not hesitate to show signs when reforming the Church, so what audacity do the Protestant reformers have to propose changes as drastic as Jesus made without showing any signs? "Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? Otherwise believe for the very works’ sake. Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works

that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do." John 14:11,12

Why should we take the Protestant reformers mere word without a sign? He who boasts an extraordinary mission from God without immediately producing undeniable signs cannot be believed.

If there was a true immediate mission from God to reform the church, then we ask which one had the true mission; Luther, Calvin, or another reformer? Each of these men had opposing beliefs from the start which resulted in different denominations so it is quite obvious these men did not have an immediate mission from God.

For those who would like to claim the Protestant reformers were true prophets, why did they act contrary to all other prophets before them by not showing any undeniable signs to prove their words, and by opposing the one true Church which no other true prophet has ever done?

“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema” Galatians 1:8.

Consider the repeated vulgarities in the writings of the reformers. Did Our Lord or the Apostles or Saints speak in this manner? Are we really to believe that someone sent from God to reform the Church was to speak in this manner?

Vulgarities…

“Returning to the issue at hand, if your Papist wishes to make a great fuss about the word “alone” (sola), say this to him: “Dr. Martin Luther will have it so and he says that a papist and an *** are the same thing.” Sic volo, sic iubeo, sit pro ratione voluntas. (I will it, I command it; my will is reason enough) For we are not going to become students and followers of the papists. Rather we will become their judge and master. We, too, are going to be proud and brag with these blockheads; and just as St. Paul brags against his madly raving saints, I will brag over these asses of mine!”

“This murmuring proves how happy Christians have been over these blasphemies, and how right they have been in doing them! So out with it, you papal asses! Say that this is the teaching of Christendom: these stinking lies which you villains and traitors have forced upon Christendom and for the sake of which you murderers have killed many Christians”

An Open Letter on Translating By Dr. Martin Luther, 1483-1546 Translated from: “Sendbrief von Dolmetschen”

“For faith is not so light or easy a matter as ignorant and inexperienced people fancy, and as our coarse blockheads, the popish dunces, pretend, who believe that faith is no more than to have heard the history and to know it.”
Sermon for Easter Monday; Luke 24:13-35

A Sermon by Martin Luther; taken from his Church Postil. [The following sermon is taken from volume II:283-300 of
The Sermons of Martin Luther]

“But the trouble is that these blockheads explain the Scriptures so awkwardly, noticing only the works and examples of the saints and thinking that now they are able to learn from them and imitate them. Thus they become nothing but apes and hypocrites, for they do not perceive that the Scriptures speak more of the heart than of the deeds of men”

Sermon for the Sunday after Christmas; Luke 2:33-40
A Sermon by Martin Luther; taken from his Church Postil of 1522. [The following sermon is taken from volume I:255-307 of The Sermons of Martin Luther]

CONTINUED

Were the Reformers sent by God, Godly men, on a mission from God?

 

[CopticChristian]

How often to you hear that the Protestant Reformers were Godly men, on a mission from God…we’ve heard this before…however…

youtube.com/watch?v=c4HZKDel9N0

CONTINUED

Were the Reformers sent by God, Godly men, on a mission from God?

CONTINUATION COMPLETE…

“But let us forgive them this, and let them take for granted that primacy was divinely bestowed on the Romish see, and has been sanctioned by the uniform consent of the ancient church; still there is room for this primacy only on the supposition that Rome has both a true church and a true bishop”

“For several centuries that see (the Roman See) has been possessed by impious superstitions, open idolatry, [and] perverse doctrines, while those great truths, in which the Christian religion chiefly consists, have been suppressed”

(Comment: which implies BEFORE those “several centuries”, the Roman See was NOT possessed by these things and it’s “great truths” existed)

John Calvin - The Necessity of Reforming the Church (1543)

“First, then, if we attach any weight to the authority of the ancient Church, let us remember, that for five hundred years, during which religion was in a more prosperous condition, and a purer doctrine flourished, Christian churches were completely free from visible representations”

(Comment: The only notable Christian Church during those five hundred years was the Catholic Church. There were no Protestant churches during those years)

John Calvin - Institutes CHAPTER 11 - IMPIETY OF ATTRIBUTING A VISIBLE FORM TO GOD.–THE SETTING UP OF IDOLS A DEFECTION FROM THE TRUE GOD

Furthermore, why would Luther claim he was not someone holy if he truly had an immediate mission from God to reform the Church?

And lastly, the Protestant reformers such as Luther and Calvin each have openly claimed the Catholic Church to have been the True Church during the early centuries of Christianity. Then later when these men fell into disagreement with the Church, they suddenly claimed it was a false Church. Do you think someone who had an immediate mission from God would teach that something is true, then later recant and teach the exact opposite? Have we ever seen Our Lord or His Apostles teach us something and then later have a change of heart and teach us the exact opposite? It is plainly obvious that hypocritical teaching is not from God.

“Against those I admit that I was harsher than is fitting for religion or profession, for I neither make myself someone Holy, nor do I debate about my life but about the doctrine of Christ”

The Deeds of Reverend Father Doctor Martin Luther in the Assemblies of Princes at Worms before Emperor Charles V, the Princes, Electors, and the nobility of the Empire follow. In the Year of Our Salvation 1521

“Accordingly, we concede to the papacy that they sit in the true Church, possessing the office instituted by Christ and inherited from the apostles, to teach, baptize, administer the sacrament, absolve, ordain, etc., just as the Jews sat in their synagogues or assemblies and were the regularly established priesthood and authority of the Church. We admit all this and do not attack the office, although they are not willing to admit as much for us; yea, we confess that we have received these things from them, even as Christ by birth descended from the Jews and the apostles obtained the Scriptures from them.”
Sermon for the Sunday after Christ’s Ascension; John 15:26-16:4 (2nd sermon) A Sermon by Martin Luther; taken from his Church Postil, 1522. [This sermon is taken from volume III:254-271 of The Sermons of Martin Luther]

“But let us forgive them this, and let them take for granted that primacy was divinely bestowed on the Romish see, and has been sanctioned by the uniform consent of the ancient church; still there is room for this primacy only on the supposition that Rome has both a true church and a true bishop”

“For several centuries that see (the Roman See) has been possessed by impious superstitions, open idolatry, [and] perverse doctrines, while those great truths, in which the Christian religion chiefly consists, have been suppressed”

(Comment: which implies BEFORE those “several centuries”, the Roman See was NOT possessed by these things and it’s “great truths” existed)
John Calvin - The Necessity of Reforming the Church (1543)

“First, then, if we attach any weight to the authority of the ancient Church, let us remember, that for five hundred years, during which religion was in a more prosperous condition, and a purer doctrine flourished, Christian churches were completely free from visible representations”

(Comment: The only notable Christian Church during those five hundred years was the Catholic Church. There were no Protestant churches during those years)

Were the Reformers sent by God, Godly men, on a mission from God?

 

[benjohnson]

This is well written Coptic and full of thought, if I may address two topics:

Furthermore, why would Luther claim he was not someone holy if he truly had an immediate mission from God to reform the Church?

Luther constantly pointed toward the Gospel, and therefore by necessity away from what he felt were institutions of man. That he claimed no particular holiness for himself is consistent with this thinking that the Gospel is at the center of our faith.

Why should we take the Protestant reformers mere word without a sign?

That no obvious signs came from God to bolster Luther’s claims fits well with Lutheran theology - in that we generally look to the Gospel for revelation.

 

[CopticChristian]

This is well written Coptic and full of thought, if I may address two topics:

Luther constantly pointed toward the Gospel, and therefore by necessity away from what he felt were institutions of man. That he claimed no particular holiness for himself is consistent with this thinking that the Gospel is at the center of our faith.

That no obvious signs came from God to bolster Luther’s claims fits well with Lutheran theology - in that we generally look to the Gospel for revelation.

Ben,

Then Luther was on a mission from God…

 

[benjohnson]

Ben,

Then Luther was on a mission from God…

I don’t think we claim that Luther was directed by God, only that he perhaps rediscovered God’s message in the Gospel as per this:

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0027.html

I think I would agree with you that drastic changes require evidence of God’s approval - where I think that you and I perhaps disagree is that I don’t view the changes of church governance as expressed in the Lutheran church as drastic, or at least, not drastic pertaining to salvation.

 

[CopticChristian]

I don’t think we claim that Luther was directed by God, only that he perhaps rediscovered God’s message in the Gospel as per this:

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0027.html

I think I would agree with you that drastic changes require evidence of God’s approval - where I think that you and I perhaps disagree is that I don’t view the changes of church governance as expressed in the Lutheran church as drastic, or at least, not drastic pertaining to salvation.

Ben,

Sounds like Luther would have done well to read the Council of Orange as all Christians should to know what the Catholic Church teaches and taught…

Council of Orange (529 AD)
Canons 4-8

CANON 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, “The will is prepared by the Lord” (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, “For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure” (Phil. 2:13).

CANON 5. If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism – if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, “And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6). And again, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers.

CANON 6. If anyone says that God has mercy upon us when, apart from his grace, we believe, will, desire, strive, labor, pray, watch, study, seek, ask, or knock, but does not confess that it is by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we have the faith, the will, or the strength to do all these things as we ought; or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, “What have you that you did not receive?” (1 Cor. 4:7), and, “But by the grace of God I am what I am” (1 Cor. 15:10).

CANON 7. If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, as is expedient for us, or that we can be saved, that is, assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who makes all men gladly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray by a heretical spirit, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, “For apart from me you can do nothing” (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, “Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God” (2 Cor. 3:5).

CANON 8. If anyone maintains that some are able to come to the grace of baptism by mercy but others through free will, which has manifestly been corrupted in all those who have been born after the transgression of the first man, it is proof that he has no place in the true faith. For he denies that the free will of all men has been weakened through the sin of the first man, or at least holds that it has been affected in such a way that they have still the ability to seek the mystery of eternal salvation by themselves without the revelation of God. The Lord himself shows how contradictory this is by declaring that no one is able to come to him “unless the Father who sent me draws him” (John 6:44), as he also says to Peter, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 16:17), and as the Apostle says, “No one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’ except by the Holy Spirit” (1 Cor. 12:3).

All Christians should know that the Catholic has taught and still teaches that it is a work of God…start to finish…on our own we can do nothing…

We are called by God, our response is with God’s help, we are saved by grace, through Faith working in love…our works are not our own…

 

[batman1973]

I have to ask Copt, what’s the point of this thread? Is this an attempt at proselytizing? I’m sure thats a no-no. Or, is this just another futile attempt to try and say that the protestants are the evil spawn of a sick, demon possesed priest?

 

[CopticChristian]

I have to ask Copt, what’s the point of this thread? Is this an attempt at proselytizing? I’m sure thats a no-no. Or, is this just another futile attempt to try and say that the protestants are the evil spawn of a sick, demon possesed priest?

Bat,

I realize you see Luther in the thread however note Calvin is mentioned as well and other so called Reformers are known but not mentioned.

While we point to Sola what ever, what about those Sola’s, whose formulations are they?

 

[benjohnson]

I have to ask Copt, what’s the point of this thread? Is this an attempt at proselytizing? I’m sure thats a no-no. Or, is this just another futile attempt to try and say that the protestants are the evil spawn of a sick, demon possesed priest?

Coptic is very sure of his faith, and in that I’m happy that God has given him this. At the same time, if we are sure of our own faith, then even if he comes across as a bit strident, then it shouldn’t effect us.

If it does effect us then we need to examine why it would and either come to a better understudying of our own faith, or perhaps look for guidance elsewhere.

Frankly, if being a Lutheran Christian is wrong, my appeal to God will be that the more I examined my faith, the more convinced I became.

 

[batman1973]

Bat,

I realize you see Luther in the thread however note Calvin is mentioned as well and other so called Reformers are known but not mentioned.

While we point to Sola what ever, what about those Sola’s, whose formulations are they?

So, this is a Catholics are right, protestants are mislead from self serving people. Wow. Good to know. Thanks for sharing.

 

[CopticChristian]

So, this is a Catholics are right, protestants are mislead from self serving people. Wow. Good to know. Thanks for sharing.

Bat,

You are free to dismiss the arguments presented…