We are only Christian because of the witness of others

[Atreyu]

Like the title of this thread says, we are only Christian because of the witness of others. Of course God is the source and principal agent of all conversions, but the fact remains that others are the vehicles for those conversions. Whether you have been taught by your parents, or by a priest, or by a pastor; it is necessary to be taught by someone in order to become Christian. Even if you are only baptised as an infant. Unless of course, you get a private revelation from God, but for some reason God has clearly not chosen to do this for everyone.

Now if I were a Protestant - and in particular, an anti-Catholic Protestant (rather than someone who just thinks that “anything will do, so long as it’s Christian”) - there’s an undeniable fact that would make me feel very uncomfortable.

Let’s say you are some kind of very powerful being, and you have the ability to manipulate time. You look at the history of the past 2000 years, and decide to erase the Catholic Church from this history. What is the effect? The effect is that Christianity itself will cease to exist. There will be no Christians, full-stop (“period”, if you must). There is no other Church (Orthodox aside) of which this may be said.

Of course, the obvious come-back to this is that God would probably have chosen some other way - some other vehicle - in which to impart to mankind His Divine Revelation, and indeed I believe this is the case. The same can be said for Noah: God could have chosen another way to save him had He willed it. But, just as God chose to save Noah via the “vehicle” of the Ark, so too God chose to save mankind via the “vehicle” of the Catholic Church.

I think this is a subtly new take on extra ecclesium nulla salus. Instead of “outside the [Catholic] Church there is no salvation”, it is “without the Catholic Church, there is no salvation”. And of course, by this we must include the appropriate caveats that are also connected with extra ecclesium nulla salus (read this, 846-848, if you don’t know what I mean).

Without the Catholic Church, there is no salvation. Can anyone deny this is true?

 

[JonNC]

Without the Catholic Church, there is no salvation. Can anyone deny this is true?

Hi Atreyu,

I would say that without the Church Catholic, salvation becomes difficult, in that the Church provides us with the means of grace, word and sacrament.

But a couple of questions:

There is no other Church (Orthodox aside) of which this may be said.

Why “Orthodox aside”? Are they not in schism, separated in some degree from The Catholic Church?

Now if I were a Protestant - and in particular, an anti-Catholic Protestant (**rather than someone who just thinks that “anything will do, so long as it’s Christian”) **- there’s an undeniable fact that would make me feel very uncomfortable.

What do you mean by the highlighted phrase? I’m not anti-catholic by any stretch, but if I and most other protestants thought “anything will do, so long as it’s Christian”, wouldn’t we just be Catholics?

Jon

 

[Claire_from_DE]

Interesting idea. The protestants I know would agree that the Catholic church is the historic church that ‘went wrong’ which is why the reformers protested. So it’s true if the Catholic church hadn’t existed, the Protestant churches wouldn’t be around.

I imagine the Orthodox point of view would be the Catholic and Orthodox were one church before the split so if the Catholic church ceased to exist at the time of the apostles, the Orthodox would not exist either since it was the same church.

 

[JonNC]

The protestants I know would agree that the Catholic church is the historic church that ‘went wrong’ which is why the reformers protested. So it’s true if the Catholic church hadn’t existed, the Protestant churches wouldn’t be around

.

Absolutely. Luther said as much.

I imagine the Orthodox point of view would be the Catholic and Orthodox were one church before the split so if the Catholic church ceased to exist at the time of the apostles, the Orthodox would not exist either since it was the same church

Therefore, we are all undeniably linked as one Church, but sadly not unified. Let us all pray the Holy Spirit lead us back into unity.

Jon

 

[Atreyu]

Hi Jon. Your questions first:

Why “Orthodox aside”? Are they not in schism, separated in some degree from The Catholic Church?

I wanted to make the bold statement that “no other Church can make this claim”, but of course it is true that the Orthodox could also make this claim. However, Catholic and Orthodox were not in schism for the first 1000 years of history, and this is the main part of history that I was thinking of in making this thread. I just wanted to skip all of this peripheral stuff.

What do you mean by the highlighted phrase? I’m not anti-catholic by any stretch, but if I and most other protestants thought “anything will do, so long as it’s Christian”, wouldn’t we just be Catholics?

It is very difficult to classify Protestants. Do you believe that the “catholic church is the church of all true (saved) believers”? This is really the group I meant by “anything goes”. It was poor phrasing, but how do you classify this group?

Now, back to your first statement:

I would say that without the Church Catholic, salvation becomes difficult, in that the Church provides us with the means of grace, word and sacrament.

No, salvation becomes impossible, apart from private divine revelation. How can one know Jesus without knowing the Bible?

 

[JonNC]

No, salvation becomes impossible, apart from private divine revelation. How can one know Jesus without knowing the Bible?

Hi Atreyu,
I was going to talk about the fact that the Church recognizes that those who are ignorant of the Church and her teachings can still be saved, but that is nitpicking. So, I will otherwise agree.

Jon

 

[Atreyu]

Hi Atreyu,
I was going to talk about the fact that the Church recognizes that those who are ignorant of the Church and her teachings can still be saved, but that is nitpicking. So, I will otherwise agree.

Jon

This is what I meant by “appropriate caveats” in the OP.