We are Sacrament?

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When did humility go out the window?

People need to stop trying to convince themselves of how great they are. God loves us, this is true, but we should not try to take this to mean that we are automatically great people. God loves everyone, that doesn’t mean that we get a free ride.

Yes, we are called to be instruments of God in the world, but a firm teaching on church doctrine and the meaning of such things as the seven sacraments and the mass would be far more beneficial than this touchy, feely, self-affirming hullaballoo.
 
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jjwilkman:
there are 7 sacraments, all administered by the clergy. i think to think anything else is ( to be charitable, i am trying) not, edging (sneaking up) on blasphemy.
let’s see if i can get this right. baptism, first communion, confirmation, marriage, holy orders, and annointing of the sick. i could be wrong due to old age (impending alzheimers)
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Appearantly you can not distinguish between Sacrament, as in one of the seven instituted by Christ, and sacrament. I don’t see Bishop Fulton Sheen making any suggestion that anything else he is referring to is raised to the level of one of the seven Sacraments. Perhaps you should read what he says.
 
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Jayson:
When did humility go out the window?

People need to stop trying to convince themselves of how great they are. God loves us, this is true, but we should not try to take this to mean that we are automatically great people. God loves everyone, that doesn’t mean that we get a free ride.

Yes, we are called to be instruments of God in the world, but a firm teaching on church doctrine and the meaning of such things as the seven sacraments and the mass would be far more beneficial than this touchy, feely, self-affirming hullaballoo.
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You are calling Bishop Fulton Sheen’s comments as touchy feely, self-affirming hullaballoo?

Interesting…
 
No, not at all.

I love Bishop Sheen. I am not worthy to stand in his shadow.

I am so bad at getting my ideas across.

What I mean is, that I don’t like when people are only taught things that make them feel good about themselves but aren’t taught the basics of the faith.

Because we are christians we are indeed a sacrament because we are a visible sign of a sacred thing. I just mean that the teaching shouldn’t stop there. The quote from Bishop Sheen is far more beneficial to the reader than what was quoted in the first post of this thread (of which I was referring to). Indeed, we are sacraments if we do God’s will. Just as a stolen kiss is not a sacrament, someone who thinks themselves to be a Christian but does not do the will of God is not really a sacrament. This teacher says that everyone, regardless of whether they follow Christ’s commandments, is a sacrament. This is what I was referring to as hullaballoo.

Forgive me, I am a bad communicator and I may not really be expressing what I understand in my head and in my heart.
 
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jjwilkman:
there are 7 sacraments, all administered by the clergy. i think to think anything else is ( to be charitable, i am trying) not, edging (sneaking up) on blasphemy.
let’s see if i can get this right. baptism, first communion, confirmation, marriage, holy orders, and annointing of the sick. i could be wrong due to old age (impending alzheimers)
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You missed Penance. All are not administerd by clergy. Baptism may, in the case where danger of death exist, be administrated by anyone. Marriage in the Latin rite is administered by the couple. The priest acts as witness for the Church. All other are administered by a priest.
 
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Jayson:
No, not at all.

I love Bishop Sheen. I am not worthy to stand in his shadow.

I am so bad at getting my ideas across.

What I mean is, that I don’t like when people are only taught things that make them feel good about themselves but aren’t taught the basics of the faith. .
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Yes. The book by Sheen about sacraments may be read here:

ewtn.com/library/DOCTRINE/SACRAMEN.TXT

He does not say sacraments are to be understood as the OP stated. He does not equate a handshake with confession or shooting drugs with baptism. It is misleading to say so.
 
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otm:
Appearantly you can not distinguish between Sacrament, as in one of the seven instituted by Christ, and sacrament. I don’t see Bishop Fulton Sheen making any suggestion that anything else he is referring to is raised to the level of one of the seven Sacraments. Perhaps you should read what he says.
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It seems to me that an important point about this general notion of sacrament is the additional insight that it gives us into the seven Sacraments and their significance. Insight well beyond the level of rote memorization typified by series of short Questions & Answers.
 
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Catholic2003:
It seems to me that an important point about this general notion of sacrament is the additional insight that it gives us into the seven Sacraments and their significance. Insight well beyond the level of rote memorization typified by series of short Questions & Answers.
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Indeed. The proper and clear definitions must be used. There should be no intention to confuse, or muddle Church teaching.
 
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rwoehmke:
Where I see the problem coming in is that no differentiation seems to be made between the idea of sacrament, small s, and Sacrament of which there are only seven, outward signs,instituted by Christ, to give grace. Certainly there are other signs that point to God and His presence in the world, but even in toto they do not equal the Seven. I think the lady has a little learning and it sounds as though she hasn’t enough to keep from being dangerous to herself and others. I have noticed this even in some trained DRE’s They fall so in love with some concept, often half understand it, and feel they have to lay it on the whole World. Well meaning, but stone ignorant!
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I agree.
 
Just a couple of not-so-random comments…

First, in the early Church the list of “sacraments” was sufficiently long that there were over 40 of them. It wasn’t until Peter Lombard’s *Sentences *that we arrive at the list of seven that Church traditionally teaches as sacraments. As a youth, I had to memorize the *Baltimore Catechism *definition of “sacrament”: an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace. Under that definition the Church herself is a sacrament since she was instituted by Christ and is the way in which God spreads His grace into the world.

Where the confusion in this thread seems to lie is in differentiating between formal sacraments, of which there are seven, and informal sacraments or sacramentals of which there are literally hundreds. In a sense, saying “we are sacrament” is valid only if the “we” refers to the Church. A collection of Catholics is not Church, they are part of the Church, but they are not Church. Yet, they may be sacramental in the sense that they dispose another to receive grace.

Perhaps what is needed here is simply more precision of expression.

Deacon ed
 
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Catholic2003:
It seems to me that an important point about this general notion of sacrament is the additional insight that it gives us into the seven Sacraments and their significance. Insight well beyond the level of rote memorization typified by series of short Questions & Answers.
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It is if we can get beyond a Pavlov type of response.
 
Deacon Ed:
Just a couple of not-so-random comments…

First, in the early Church the list of “sacraments” was sufficiently long that there were over 40 of them. It wasn’t until Peter Lombard’s *Sentences *that we arrive at the list of seven that Church traditionally teaches as sacraments. As a youth, I had to memorize the *Baltimore Catechism *definition of “sacrament”: an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace. Under that definition the Church herself is a sacrament since she was instituted by Christ and is the way in which God spreads His grace into the world.

Where the confusion in this thread seems to lie is in differentiating between formal sacraments, of which there are seven, and informal sacraments or sacramentals of which there are literally hundreds. In a sense, saying “we are sacrament” is valid only if the “we” refers to the Church. A collection of Catholics is not Church, they are part of the Church, but they are not Church. Yet, they may be sacramental in the sense that they dispose another to receive grace.

Perhaps what is needed here is simply more precision of expression.

Deacon ed
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Well said. It goes along with the statement that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

The DRE is a prime example of a very shallow understanding of a very rich concept.
 
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