We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus

[bengal_fan]

That’s how I understand our Catholic faith.
God love you,
Paul

that’s not exactly how i understand the roman catholic faith. i have read and been told that the church teaches saved by grace, but that we receive that grace through faith AND works. that it takes both to receive the grace. protestants (most i would say) teach that we receive grace through faith. that faith (if it is a true faith that results in receiving God’s saving grace) WILL result in works flowing from our lives. the works have no bearing on whether we receive grace or not, but are a definite by-product of receiving the grace. if i misunderstand i would love for some one to show me differently and please use other’s writings (especially modern catholic apologists) to show me where the church is teaching what.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Well, that’s a whole other thread…but we agree…keep on evangelizin’ and be a great example!

Yeah that is a whole other thread LOL

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I never did like the word “unsaved.” I prefer “unbeliever”, “non-Christian,” etc. These are words that do not make a judgement on a person’s standing before God.

God Bless,
Michael

Yeah non-christian is ok I guess. But hopefully not for long.

 

[ChrisWRIT]

that’s not exactly how i understand the roman catholic faith. i have read and been told that the church teaches saved by grace, but that we receive that grace through faith AND works. that it takes both to receive the grace. protestants (most i would say) teach that we receive grace through faith. that faith (if it is a true faith that results in receiving God’s saving grace) WILL result in works flowing from our lives. the works have no bearing on whether we receive grace or not, but are a definite by-product of receiving the grace.

Not quite. The Catholic Church teaches that we receive grace as a free gift of God.

Neither faith nor works earn that grace, by which we are saved.

Faith is both an act & a gift, with which we respond to God’s grace.

Works grow out of our faith, & actually justify, by completing and perfecting our faith. (As shown in James 2:14–26.)

if i misunderstand i would love for some one to show me differently and please use other’s writings (especially modern catholic apologists) to show me where the church is teaching what.

Would the Catholic Catechism do? From paragraphs 152-155:

*152 - One cannot believe in Jesus Christ without sharing in his Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who reveals to men who Jesus is, for “no one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’, except by the Holy Spirit”, (1 Cor. 12:3)
…
153 - When St. Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus declared to him that this revelation did not come “from flesh and blood”, but from “my Father who is in heaven”. (Mt. 11:25; 16:17; Gal 1:15) Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. “Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and ‘makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth.’”

154 - Believing is possible only by grace and the interior helps of the Holy Spirit. But it is no less true that believing is an authentically human act. Trusting in God and cleaving to the truths He has revealed is contrary neither to human freedom nor to human reason.
…
155 - In faith, the human intellect and will co-operate with divine grace: “Believing isan act of the intellect assenting to the divine truth by command of the will moved by God through grace.” [St. Thomas Aquinas]*

Hope this helps.

Chris

 

[elvisman]

that’s not exactly how i understand the roman catholic faith. i have read and been told that the church teaches saved by grace, but that we receive that grace through faith AND works. that it takes both to receive the grace. protestants (most i would say) teach that we receive grace through faith. that faith (if it is a true faith that results in receiving God’s saving grace) WILL result in works flowing from our lives. the works have no bearing on whether we receive grace or not, but are a definite by-product of receiving the grace. if i misunderstand i would love for some one to show me differently and please use other’s writings (especially modern catholic apologists) to show me where the church is teaching what.

**To simply believe is not enough. Let’s remember - Satan and his demons believe in Jesus Christ. They even believe that he is the Son of God, but it doesn’t mean they’re “saved”. **
Matt. 8:29 -
*They (the demons) cried out, “What have you to do with us, Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the appointed time?” *
**

 

[bengal_fan]

Not quite. The Catholic Church teaches that we receive grace as a free gift of God.

Neither faith nor works earn that grace, by which we are saved.

Faith is both an act & a gift, with which we respond to God’s grace.

Works grow out of our faith, & actually justify, by completing and perfecting our faith. (As shown in James 2:14–26.)

so what would be the difference between being “saved” and being “justified”?

Would the Catholic Catechism do?

of course! i love the catechism

From paragraphs 152-155:

*152 - One cannot believe in Jesus Christ without sharing in his Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who reveals to men who Jesus is, for “no one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’, except by the Holy Spirit”, (1 Cor. 12:3)
…
153 - When St. Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus declared to him that this revelation did not come “from flesh and blood”, but from “my Father who is in heaven”. (Mt. 11:25; 16:17; Gal 1:15) Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. “Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and ‘makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth.’”

154 - Believing is possible only by grace and the interior helps of the Holy Spirit. But it is no less true that believing is an authentically human act. Trusting in God and cleaving to the truths He has revealed is contrary neither to human freedom nor to human reason.
…
155 - In faith, the human intellect and will co-operate with divine grace: “Believing isan act of the intellect assenting to the divine truth by command of the will moved by God through grace.” [St. Thomas Aquinas]*

Hope this helps.

Chris

yes, in some ways. i do see a bit of calvinism in here. there is also some (very little though) arminianism here as well. i guess where i’m having trouble is where the works have an effect on God’s grace. they are a by-product of His grace having worked in our lives to help us to produce faith. i also disagree slightly with Aquinas (although he is such a deep thinker, some of what he says appeals only to the head and leaves out the heart). i do think believing is an act of intellect, but believing isn’t faith. James makes that perfectly clear when saying, “you believe there is one God, GOOD! even the demons believe and tremble.” faith is a turning of our heart to God’s grace. works then flow from it and show outwardly that there is an inward faith (this would be how i would define “justify” as used by James). there is just a slight difference here, but an important one i think.

 

[bengal_fan]

**To simply believe is not **enough. Let’s remember - Satan and his demons believe in Jesus Christ. They even believe that he is the Son of God, but it doesn’t mean they’re “saved”.
Matt. 8:29 -
They (the demons) cried out, "What have you to do with us, Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the appointed time?"
**

right. which is why in my FIRST post i said that i define faith and belief differently (as i think James does).

 

[elvisman]

right. which is why in my FIRST post i said that i define faith and belief differently (as i think James does).

Yes, but in your statements thereafter, you state that faith is all you need and that our works have no bearing on our receiving God’s grace.
If that were the case, then we wouldn’t be judged according to our works (Rev 20:12)
Matt. 7:21 -
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."

---

We can do no good without the grace of God.
Why, then does Jesus tell us:
"A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them."
We ALREADY know who the non-believers are. He was speaking of people who supposedly “believe” but do NOT do God’s will.

One last point - if Jesus is the vine and we (his believers) are the branches, how is it that some of those branches - who do not bear good fruit - will be burned up?

John 15:5-6
***I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. ***
Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned.

---

My entire point on this thread was to point out that we CANNOT know who is “saved” and who isn’t. That is for God to decide.

 

[bengal_fan]

again, elvisman, you are not seeing where i defined faith and belief as being different, but anyway.

i see scripture saying that works come out of faith. belief results in nothing, but faith results in works. the middle component is grace. we have faith, we receive grace (we partially have faith because of grace so there is some mystery here), we do works. we cannot get grace from works. Eph 2:8-9 is clear on this. James is saying that our faith is justified by what we do, not our salvation. what we do shows where our heart is (the crux of faith). so God will look at our works, but because He wants to see where our hearts are. people who do works but have no faith don’t receive grace and are still separated from God. people who have “faith” but produce no works have no faith. they have belief. people who have faith, receive grace and works flow from them. those works go to justify our faith. to show the world our faith.

 

[elvisman]

again, elvisman, you are not seeing where i defined faith and belief as being different, but anyway.

i see scripture saying that works come out of faith. belief results in nothing, but faith results in works. the middle component is grace. we have faith, we receive grace (we partially have faith because of grace so there is some mystery here), we do works. we cannot get grace from works. Eph 2:8-9 is clear on this. James is saying that our faith is justified by what we do, not our salvation. what we do shows where our heart is (the crux of faith). so God will look at our works, but because He wants to see where our hearts are. people who do works but have no faith don’t receive grace and are still separated from God. people who have “faith” but produce no works have no faith. they have belief. people who have faith, receive grace and works flow from them. those works go to justify our faith. to show the world our faith.

You have a much more Catholic understanding of faith and works than many of my Protestant friends and family.:clapping: I hope that doesn’t sound condescending - it is not meant to be.

I might add that the Catholic Church sees this a having obedience to faith. Faith is wonderful, but obedience to that faith is what makes it come alive. Afterall, anyone can believe - even Satan.
God bless!

 

[bengal_fan]

You have a much more Catholic understanding of faith and works than many of my Protestant friends and family.:clapping: I hope that doesn’t sound condescending - it is not meant to be.

i don’t take it as condescending at all. i hopefully have a scriptural and historical understanding of grace, faith, and works.

I might add that the Catholic Church sees this a having obedience to faith. Faith is wonderful, but obedience to that faith is what makes it come alive. Afterall, anyone can believe - even Satan.
God bless!

i would just disagree a little with the statement that obedience makes the faith come alive. i think obedience shows that the faith*** is*** alive.

 

[ChrisWRIT]

so what would be the difference between being “saved” and being “justified”?

We must be justified to be saved. Although it seems that people often mix the terms, as if they are interchangeable, which I have been unintentionally guilty of at times.

yes, in some ways. i do see a bit of calvinism in here. there is also some (very little though) arminianism here as well.

I’d say the opposite - that we see a bit of Catholicism in Calvin and Arminius’s writings!

i guess where i’m having trouble is where the works have an effect on God’s grace. they are a by-product of His grace having worked in our lives to help us to produce faith. i also disagree slightly with Aquinas (although he is such a deep thinker, some of what he says appeals only to the head and leaves out the heart). i do think believing is an act of intellect, but believing isn’t faith. James makes that perfectly clear when saying, “you believe there is one God, GOOD! even the demons believe and tremble.” faith is a turning of our heart to God’s grace. works then flow from it and show outwardly that there is an inward faith (this would be how i would define “justify” as used by James). there is just a slight difference here, but an important one i think.

There’s no evidence that James was changing what kind of faith he was talking about between sentences. In fact, in Jaems 2:23, he points out that:

“Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"”

i see scripture saying that works come out of faith.

people who have “faith” but produce no works have no faith. they have belief.

I might agree, but I don’t see how either is Scriptural.

James specifically says that “faith without deeds is useless” implying that faith can exist without deeds.

Where does the Bible state that works come out of, or are merely evidence of, faith?

Chris

 

[bengal_fan]

I’d say the opposite - that we see a bit of Catholicism in Calvin and Arminius’s writings!

touch`e lol

There’s no evidence that James was changing what kind of faith he was talking about between sentences. In fact, in James 2:23, he points out that:

“Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”"

well, he mentions belief earlier when talking about demons and then goes into how faith is different because works come with faith. the word he uses for believe when talking about the demons in greek is different than the one he uses when talking about Abraham believing. this shows me that James associates different meanings between belief and faith.

James specifically says that “faith without deeds is useless” implying that faith can exist without deeds.

Where does the Bible state that works come out of, or are merely evidence of, faith?

i would say in the book of James is a great place to start. in 2:18 where he talks about showing you his faith by what he does. he doesn’t say he will do works to get faith. also, when Jesus is speaking about judging a tree by its fruit. the assumption there is that the tree is already alive and growing, and if it is a good tree, then it will bear good fruit. the fruit doesn’t come first or even at the same time but out of the tree. in Ephesians 2, Paul says how we are saved by grace through faith and not by works, but then says we have been created in Christ Jesus to do good works. the good works come out of being created new in Christ Jesus (faith).

 

[bengal_fan]

hey all, i have really enjoyed this discussion but i have to get out of here and by the time i get back there will be too many responses for me to be able to reply to all of them. i hope i have communicated what i believe and you all have shown what you think. i can see that we are very close to the same thing and close enough that i don’t see why there is a gap on this issue. i hope everyone experiences Christ in an amazing way this weekend.