We ARE saved by Works.

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Salvation is of God, NOT Dependent Upon Man’s Works

Over and over the Bible proclaims that good deeds CANNOT merit us salvation. Someone needs to tell this to the Pope! He preaches a message of kindness and love but never mentions the name of Jesus Christ. You’ll never hear the Pope speak of the torments of hell. I’ve never heard him speak of being born-again. All the love and kindness in the world will NOT get you into Heaven. Catholicism teaches that a person must practice the “seven sacraments” to obtain Heaven. This of course is a lie of the devil! You do NOT need to be baptized to go to Heaven! You do NOT need to confess your sins to a priest in order to be forgiven. No priest can forgive anyone’s sins!!! You do NOT need to go to confirmation to be saved, no sir! These are lies of the devil. I once witnessed to a Catholic man concerning the Lord Jesus Christ. He said that he believed in “faith AND works.” Though I believe he was sincere, he does NOT understand the Bible very well. Romans 11:6 clarifies this matter, “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But IF IT BE OF WORKS, THEN IT IS NO MORE GRACE: otherwise work is no more work.” If salvation comes by works, then it is NOT by God’s grace anymore. The whole reason that Jesus died on the cross folks is because we could not perform enough good works to get saved. There is NO amount of good deeds that can reconcile us to God. Only through Jesus Christ can anyone be saved. If it were possible for us to get to Heaven by living a good and upright life, then Jesus died for nothing. “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, THEN CHRIST IS DEAD IN VAIN” (Galatians 2:21).
 
Jesus Christ Paid a Sin Debt that We Could Not Pay

Jesus paid a debt He did not owe because we owed a debt we could not pay. That’s God’s grace! Like it or not, you are just too sinful and wicked to save yourself—you CANNOT earn your way into Heaven. This is the very reason why God had to provide a way of escape for humanity. This way of escape has been provided through the sacrifice and blood atonement of Jesus Christ. God did this because He loves us very much, more than we can possibly comprehend. Don’t make the mistake of creating God in your own image, you were created in God’s own image. You are the object of the Heavenly Father’s love—so much so that He created you in His very own likeness
 
Most Rich People Spit On God’s Grace by Rejecting Christ

God wanted you to be like Him. Someday, if you’ll let Him, He wants to give you everything. “He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also FREELY GIVE US ALL THINGS?” (Romans 8:32). If God was willing to give His own earthly life in sacrifice for us, don’t you think that He will also give us everything else? Yes, that is exactly true. God wants us to have the kingdom of Heaven, the earth, everything. God says, what’s mine is yours! Of course, this does not include sinful things because sin belongs to Satan and man—not God. Everything that is righteous and Holy will be ours when we get to Heaven to be with Jesus. Perhaps you ask, “then why doesn’t God make me rich now?” Because that would likely be the worst thing that ever happened to you my friend. Great and many are the sins of the rich and famous. You are rich if you have Christ in your heart. There are two ways to be rich: Have all you want OR want all you have! The greatest things in life are NOT things and I’m satisfied with what God has blessed me with—things that money can’t buy. Money CANNOT buy anyone into Heaven.
 
The Apostle Paul Relied Upon God’s Grace, Nothing Else

But by THE GRACE OF GOD I am what I am” (1st Corinthians 15:10). The Apostle Paul knew where his bread and butter came from. He knew Who had given him the wisdom and ability to write to the churches. Paul didn’t take anything for granted but gave God the benefit of the doubt for everything good in his life. God’s grace is God goodness, His doing for us what we certainly don’t deserve. We deserve to go straight to hell, but God has given us the gift of life and the opportunity to be saved—this is God’s grace. God’s grace is everything that God has ever done, is doing, or ever will do for us. We deserve nothing! When someone arrogantly claims that they are trying to impress God with their good works, they are unknowingly admitting that they know nothing concerning the grace of God. Salvation cannot be of grace and works as we have already learned from Romans 11:6. The grace of God does for us what we cannot do for ourselves, if we could save ourselves we wouldn’t need the grace of God.
 
God’s Throne of Grace

The grace of God is available to help us through every trial and problem in life because we can’t make it on our own. It is our duty to claim the grace of God in times of trouble, “Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find GRACE TO HELP in time of need” (Hebrews 4:16).
 
Salvation is Only Found in Jesus Christ

Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of JESUS CHRIST of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. NEITHER IS THERE SALVATION IN ANY OTHER: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby WE MUST BE SAVED (Acts 4:10-12). Salvation can only be found be found in the name of Jesus Christ. You CANNOT find salvation in the name of Allah. You CANNOT find salvation in the name of the Pope. You CANNOT find salvation in the name of Buddha. You CANNOT find salvation in the name of a religion or a denomination. You CANNOT find salvation in the name of an evangelist. You can only find salvation in the person of Jesus Christ. This is God’s plan.

Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place CALL UPON THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST our Lord, both theirs and ours” (1st Corinthians 1:2). We must call upon the name of Jesus to be saved. “For whosoever shall call upon THE NAME OF THE LORD shall be saved” (Romans 10:13). The word “call” here means “to believe.” The Scriptures are very clear that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven. We must believe this and personally make the decision to rely 100% upon Christ for salvation. We do this because of the atoning work of Christ. We must trust Jesus because He is the ONLY One Who came to pay for our sins. We must confess our sinful condition to God and ask Him to forgive us of all our sins based upon the atoning work of Christ. The “atonement” is ALL the necessary things concerning Christ which were required to make our salvation possible—Christ’s virgin birth, His deity, sinless life, death, burial, resurrection, blood applied, etc. All these precious items were necessary for our redemption to take place. Thank God for giving us a second chance through His Son Jesus Christ. By the way, there are no third chances with God—only second chances. When God forgives, He forgets! Every time we sin, it is a first offense with God. It’s been said that we remember what God forgets and God remembers what we forget
 
lol. would cutting and pasting 10-20 posts in a row be considered flooding or spamming, thus violating the rules?

this thread might be setting back catholic readers 500 years at least…

oh well while we’re on the subject, it’s good to know that this happened,

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
elca.org/ecumenical/ecumenicaldialogue/romancatholic/jddj/index.html

it’s basically about how the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church came to an agreement on the 500 year old topic. basically most of the Lutherans have accepted that it’s both faith and works through grace. the Methodists and many Christians have also joined in. the Church hasn’t really changed anything, and were basically right all along, not surprisingly.
 
johnnydigit said:
lol. would cutting and pasting 10-20 posts in a row be considered flooding or spamming, thus violating the rules?

this thread might be setting back catholic readers 500 years at least…

oh well while we’re on the subject, it’s good to know that this happened,

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
elca.org/ecumenical/ecumenicaldialogue/romancatholic/jddj/index.html

it’s basically about how the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church came to an agreement on the 500 year old topic. basically most of the Lutherans have accepted that it’s both faith and works through grace. the Methodists and many Christians have also joined in. the Church hasn’t really changed anything, and were basically right all along, not surprisingly.
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Roman Catholic theology does not embrace the interpretation of salvation and justification as that presented by Scripture and the Protestant Reformers. The Roman Church does teach that we are justified by grace through faith on account of Christ. What is missing, however, is the word alone. By omitting this word the Roman Church redefines grace, faith and justification in a way that undermines and invalidates the teaching of Scripture. This will become clear as we examine the specific definitions given these terms by the official Magisterium of the Church of Rome.
 
The Roman View of the Work of Christ

Rome says that Christ made an atonement for sin, meriting the grace by which a person is justified but that the work of Christ is not the exclusive cause of an individual’s justification and salvation. Ludwig Ott makes this statement:

Christ’s redemptive activity finds its apogee in the death of sacrifice on the cross. On this account it is by excellence but not exclusively the efficient cause of our redemption…No one can be just to whom the merits of Christ’s passion have not been communicated. It is a fundamental doctrine of St. Paul that salvation can be acquired only by the grace merited by Christ (Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Rockford: Tan, 1974), pp. 185, 190).

According to the Church of Rome, Christ did not accomplish a full, finished and completed salvation in his work of atonement. His death on the cross did not deal with the full penalty of man’s sin. It merited grace for man which is then channeled to the individual through the Roman Catholic Church and its sacraments. This grace then enables man to do works of righteousness in order to merit justification and eternal life. Robert Sungenis expresses the Roman Catholic perspective in these words:

What did Christ’s suffering and death actually accomplish that allowed the Father to provide the human race with salvation? Did Christ take within himself the sin and guilt of mankind and suffer the specific punishment for that sin and guilt, as Protestants contend? The answer is no…Christ did not take upon himself the entire punishment required of man for sin. Rather, Scripture teaches only that Christ became a ‘propitiation,’ a ‘sin offering,’ or a ‘sacrifice’ for sins…Essentially, this means that Christ, because he was guiltless, sin-free and in favor with God, could offer himself up as a means of persuading God to relent of his angry wrath against the sins of mankind. Sin destroys God’s creation. God, who is a passionate and sensitive being, is angry against man for harming the creation. Anger against sin shows the personal side of God, for sin is a personal offense against him. We must not picture God as an unemotional courtroom judge who is personally unharmed by the sin of the offender brought before him. God is personally offended by sin and thus he needs to be personally appeased in order to offer a personal forgiveness. In keeping with his divine principles, his personal nature, and the magnitude of the sins of man, the only thing that God would allow to appease him was the suffering and death of the sinless representative of mankind, namely, Christ (Robert Sungenis, Not By Faith Alone (Santa Barbara: Queenship, 1997), pp. 107-108).
 
What Sungenis is saying is that Christ’s death merely appeased God’s anger against man. He persuades God to relent of his anger and to offer a means of forgiveness to man. And that means is through man’s own works cooperating with the grace of God. Grace is not the activity of God in Christ purchasing and accomplishing full salvation and eternal life and applying this to man as a gift. And it is not a completed work. Rather, grace is a supernatural quality, infused into the soul of man through the sacraments, enabling him to do works of expiation and righteousness. These works then become the basis of justification. In the Roman theology of justification there is an ongoing need to deal with sin in order to maintain a state of grace, and a need for positive acts of righteousness, which originate from that grace and then become the basis for one’s justification. So man’s works must be added to the work of Christ, in particular, the work of the sacraments. Consequently, justification is not a once–for–all declaration of righteousness based upon the imputed righteousness of Christ, but a process that is dependent upon the righteousness of man produced through infused grace
 
In Roman Catholic teaching there is no salvation apart from participation in the sacraments mediated through its priesthood. The Roman Church teaches that she is the mediator between Christ and the individual. Saving grace is mediated through these sacraments. John Hardon, author of The Question and Answer Catholic Catechism (which carries the official authorization of the Vatican) says this:
 
Why did Christ establish the Church?
Christ established the Church as the universal sacrament of salvation.

How is the Church the universal sacrament of salvation?
The Church is the universal sacrament of salvation as the divinely instituted means of conferring grace on all the members of the human family.

What does the Catholic Church believe about the forgiveness of sins?
She believes it is God’s will that no one is forgiven except through the merits of Jesus Christ and that these merits are uniquely channeled through the Church He founded. Consequently, even as the Church is the universal sacrament of salvation, she is also the universal sacrament of reconciliation.

How does the Church communicate the merits of Christ’s mercy to sinners?
The Church communicates the merits of Christ’s mercy to sinners through the Mass and the sacraments and all the prayers and good works of the faithful.

Are the sacraments necessary for salvation?
According to the way God has willed that we be saved the sacraments are necessary for salvation
 
These words clearly express the official position of the Church of Rome. There is no salvation apart from participation in the sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church. There is no other means of obtaining saving grace. Hardon’s words echo the teaching of the Council of Trent:

Knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives He lives to God (Rom. 6:10).

Jesus’ death was a unique historic event which is completed and therefore he can never experience death again. In addition to Paul’s affirmation of this, Jesus himself states: ‘I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore’ (Rev. 1:18). The word used to describe the death of Jesus as a finished work—ephapax—is the same word used to describe his sacrifice and the offering of his body (Heb. 10:10; 9:25–26). Just as Christ cannot die again, neither can his body be offered again or his sacrifice be continued for sin. This is because apart from his death there is no sacrifice that is propitiatory for sin. What made his sacrifice propitiatory in God’s eyes was his death. Hebrews 9:22 makes this point: ‘Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.’ As a result then of this one sacrifice, the bible teaches that God has accomplished a sufficient and finished atonement. Since Christ cannot die again there is no more sacrifice for sin and therefore the mass cannot be the same sacrifice as Calvary. On the basis of that finished work God now offers complete and total forgiveness to man. There is no more sacrifice for sin: ‘Where there is forgiveness of these things there is no longer any offering for sin’ (Heb. 10:18). And since there is no need for further sacrifice, Scripture also teaches that there is no need for a continuing sacerdotal priesthood. Christ has fulfilled the Old Testament ceremonial law and it is now abrogated (Heb. 7:11–19). He has become our Sacrifice and Priest and the only Mediator by which we approach God (1 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 7:22–25). Christ’s atonement has completely removed the guilt of our sin and its condemnation because he has paid the penalty in full.
 
Kevan said:
That’s “beliver,” as in “If’ns the church be heart, then the bible be liver.”
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:rotfl:That’s funny. I guess the font on my computer is so small, I was connecting the dots that weren’t there!

I doubt ol’ bb would think that the church is the heart. Evidently the prophet that he got all his information from is the heart for him.
 
biblebeliver said:
These words clearly express the official position of the Church of Rome. There is no salvation apart from participation in the sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church. There is no other means of obtaining saving grace. FatherHardon’s words echo the teaching of the Council of Trent
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This view point also express the official position of the Chruch and both are correct.

Dr. Art Sippo writes “[No salvation outside the Church] was reiterated at Vatican II in Lumen Gentium Paragraph 14. Now formal membership is the ordinary means of salvation, but the Church has always accepted that there can be extenuating circumstances and that one may be related to the Catholic Church less formally [this will include many Christians of other denominations]. Technically, all validly baptized persons are members of the Catholic Church.”

Also some honest seekers, who through no fault of their own, did not learn about the the Catholic Church will be saved.

Obviously though you HAVE learned about the truth. I hope for the sake of your soul you are taking the apropriate measures to get right so your not sentanced to purgatory or God forbid, left behind completely.

May the soul of Fr. Hardon rest in peace.
 
NotWorthy said:
Evidently the prophet that he got all his information from is the heart for him.
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Since he (or his bot) is not here to defend himself, I’ll just add that he was writing the ordinary evangelical doctrine of salvation, not some weird ideas of some prophet.

Discussing the topic of faith and works (which occurs here every, oh, three days or so) triggers all kinds of instant misinterpretations and knee-jerk rejections. I wish that each side could understand the other’s point.
 
Kevan said:
Since he (or his bot) is not here to defend himself, I’ll just add that he was writing the ordinary evangelical doctrine of salvation, not some weird ideas of some prophet.

Discussing the topic of faith and works (which occurs here every, oh, three days or so) triggers all kinds of instant misinterpretations and knee-jerk rejections. I wish that each side could understand the other’s point.
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The protestant misinterpretation is anything but a knee-jerk reaction.

It is subversion to the word of God and a departure from the sound doctrines of the Pillar and Foundation of all truth that Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to guide for all time.

Though Luthers ideas aren’t wierd to the spirit of protest, you are correct about one thing, they aren’t from a prophet, at least not a true prophet.
 
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