We ARE saved by Works.

[okieflyer]

No, the more work you did for God, in this life,the more Glory you give God, and in return God will Glorify you.

This I agree with but have a hard time attaching it to salvation. This concept is Biblical but treasures in Heaven is not my motivation or glory for myself.

 

[Techno2000]

Lets say a self labeled “Christian” belived in God’s existance but had no value, regard, or belief for any of His teachings and with a grudge did works with zero compasion and love just for the sake of looking like a “good guy” to his neighbors.

(I know it’s not very likely)

I know we can not pretend to have an understanding of God grace but in your opinion what would you say Heaven or Hell?

You forgot PURGATORY

 

[Techno2000]

Techno2000;2258961:

No, the more work you did for God, in this life,the more Glory you give God, and in return God will Glorify you.

This I agree with but have a hard time attaching it to salvation. This concept is Biblical but treasures in Heaven is not my motivation or glory for myself.

You will be Glorifying, all of Heaven too.

 

[okieflyer]

You forgot PURGATORY

Can you be saved in purgatory?? per Catholic belief

To me in the scenareo I set up he was not a true Christian.
Believed in existance, but not the good news, did works only for self image.

 

[Techno2000]

Techno2000;2258961:

No, the more work you did for God, in this life,the more Glory you give God, and in return God will Glorify you.

This I agree with but have a hard time attaching it to salvation. This concept is Biblical but treasures in Heaven is not my motivation or glory for myself.

So why did Jesus even bother to tell the rich man about having
Treasures in Heaven ?

 

[okieflyer]

Techno2000 … Oh yeah thanks for the links on the other thread.

 

[Techno2000]

Can you be saved in purgatory?? per Catholic belief

To me in the scenareo I set up he was not a true Christian.
Believed in existance, but not the good news, did works only for self image.

When he dies, if he sorry for his sins, Jesus will fell sorry for him.

 

[Techno2000]

Techno2000 … Oh yeah thanks for the links on the other thread.

Here is some more:
angelfire.com/ca3/rafaelmarie/ThePieta/bstbridgetprayers.html
catholicforum.com/churches/cathteach/divinemercy1.htm

 

[NotWorthy]

notworthy:

Jesus gave us a New Commandment. “To Love one another as I have loved you”. Did He give us a commandment that He knew we couldn’t keep?

Robert902:

He sure did. Do you keep the ten commandments? I try, but fall short. That’s why I needed a savior like Jesus. If I could, then Jesus wouldn’t have had to have gone to the cross for our sins.

Jesus gives us commandments that He expects us to keep, or else He wouldn’t have given them to us. That’s why their called “commandments”, not “suggestions”. I will reach that point someday, with His Grace!

notworthy:

Robert, Everlasting Life is what? See, this is where we disagree. The Holy Spirit dwelling in our soul is Everlasting Life, for God is Life Eternal. While we remain in this state, what we call the State of Grace, we have this Everlasting Life (We are Filled with His Grace). But, when we commit mortal sin, we turn away from God and His Love.

Robert902:

You might turn away, but when I sin, I myself personally turn toward God seeking His mercy. And as the scriptures say; “Where sin abounds, mercy abounds all the more.”

Amen!!! That’s what Catholics call Confession as we go to our “Ministers of Reconciliation”. By your argument, are you implying that Catholics don’t turn to God seeking His Mercy? That would be odd.

notworthy:

I had to address this post one more time:
Where in the world does Jesus say that we are to be judged by anything other than our actions?

Galatians 3:13 "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”)

That does not answer the question. It speeks nothing of judgment, and it is not in Christ’s words. Let me re-phrase the question:

Where in the Gospels does Christ tell us that we are judged by anything other than our actions?

Also read: 2 Cor. 5:21, 1 Peter 2:24, Rom. 8:1,34.

Where in the Gospels does Christ tell us that we are judged by anything other than our actions?

Notworthy:

I thought the parable of the Sheeps and Goats was rather clear on this.

Robert902:

It is very clear. Christ is our shepherd.

God Bless,
Robert

Is that all Robert? Are you simply ignoring the fact that Jesus, the Good Shepherd is judging the sheep and the goats by what? Not by their Faith, for they all call out, ’Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’

 

[NotWorthy]

Sure, we have free will in our daily decisions, but with respect to our salvation, if God has chosen you before the foundation of time, you will not and cannot reject His gift of salvation. What’s with the Bay-bee?

The “Bay-Bee” sounds better with an Austin Power accent. It’s nothing meant to deride you. Sorry if it came across that way.

So God chooses us, and that’s it. Then what’s it all about? I’m going to heaven or not if God chooses, and you’re going to heaven if God chooses or not? That’s what you get out of Scripture?

Give me a for instance of how you could “give it away”?

In Jesus’ words, John 15 tells us:

Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned.

To “no longer remain” in the Body of Christ means someone was a part of the Body of Christ (They were Sanctified), but they turned to sin. This has been taught since the earlies times of the Church.

The (Prodigal) son returned because he was one of God’s chosen. IAnd, if he had not returned, then he was not chosen by God.

God Bless,
Robert

I’m sorry, Robert, but where does it say that? Jesus didn’t make any claims that “The son, because he was chosen by God, repented…”. I checked, even the KJV doesn’t make that claim.

 

[okieflyer]

okieflyer;2259001:

So why did Jesus even bother to tell the rich man about having
Treasures in Heaven ?

About treasures in Heaven? Because they exist for the faithful.

Tying it to salvation is somthing else.

In th OT a perfect lamb (sometimes other animals) were used to cover sins through the OT sacrifice.

NT Jesus was that perfect sacrifice but to wash away and not just cover. His perfection was the key. It is a hard stretch for me to say I could have added to his perfect sacrifice.

1Peter 3:18 Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the un righteous, to bring you to God

1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world

Titus 3:5 He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy.

 

[NotWorthy]

Eph. 2:19:20 “having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone.” No, it is not confusing, on the contrary it is very clear. If God built His church on only one apostle, why then in this verse does He say that He built it on [all] the apostles?

God Bless,
Robert

Yes, the Church was builit on the Apostles, the Prophets, even on the blood of martyrs and all the faithful. No questions there. But who did Jesus give the keys to and what did Keys signify? Who exerted teaching authority all through Acts (1-15) when Luke concentrated on the development of doctrine?

 

[NotWorthy]

“God’s good pleasure.”

God Bless,
Robert

You make God sound like the grand Puppet-Master.

 

[okieflyer]

When he dies, if he sorry for his sins, Jesus will fell sorry for him.

Is that yes??
I fell sorry for sorry for murderers on the electric chair with no remorse because they do not "get it"as in the truth. But thier still is a cosequence.

By that train of thought all will be saved because who would not make it to purgatory and say UhOh!! and be sorry.

 

[Techno2000]

Techno2000;2259042:

About treasures in Heaven? Because they exist for the faithful.

Tying it to salvation is somthing else.

In th OT a perfect lamb (sometimes other animals) were used to cover sins through the OT sacrifice.

NT Jesus was that perfect sacrifice but to wash away and not just cover. His perfection was the key. It is a hard stretch for me to say I could have added to his perfect sacrifice.

1Peter 3:18 Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the un righteous, to bring you to God

1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world

Titus 3:5 He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy.

Colossians 1:24

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is LACKING in Christ’s afflictions.

sorry a have to go to sleep now, talk to you tomorrow

 

[okieflyer]

okieflyer;2259084:

Colossians 1:24

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is LACKING in Christ’s afflictions.

sorry a have to go to sleep now, talk to you tomorrow

It is a verse on the body of Christ ie… the Church or all believers.
Not on slavation of the individual. Written by Paul who was saved by this time to the Colosians who were also saved at this time. It is a verse on continuing afflictions to Christ (at this point the Body of Christ which is the Church). Afflictions brought about by faith works. I guess I do not see how it affects the atoning sacrifice Jesus Christ has made.

I still do not see how I could add to this sacrifice without boasting but only humbly accept it. Now once I accept it faith and works take over and I can sacrifice and bear afflictions out of obediance for the growth of the Church which is what this passage talks about.

 

[NotWorthy]

It is a verse on the body of Christ ie… the Church or all believers.
Not on slavation of the individual. Written by Paul who was saved by this time to the Colosians who were also saved at this time. It is a verse on continuing afflictions to Christ (at this point the Body of Christ which is the Church). Afflictions brought about by faith works. I guess I do not see how it affects the atoning sacrifice Jesus Christ has made.

I still do not see how I could add to this sacrifice without boasting but only humbly accept it. Now once I accept it faith and works take over and I can sacrifice and bear afflictions out of obediance for the growth of the Church which is what this passage talks about.

The ONLY thing lacking in Christ’s Sacrifice is our participation in that Sacrifice.

Yes, Jesus died for us, which seals in the Covenant. But a Covenant is between two groups. We must do our part to join the Covenant.

 

[KatholikosMercy]

Can you be saved in purgatory?? per Catholic belief

To me in the scenareo I set up he was not a true Christian.
Believed in existance, but not the good news, did works only for self image.

You cannot be damned from purgatory. Its a purgation on the way to heaven.

If you’ve attained the Mercy of purgatory Heaven is then imminent.

 

[KatholikosMercy]

From what I understand the Catholic Church says you must do works with faith to recieve Grace.

That is incorrect friend. Gods Grace is a free gift to us. All of Gods gifts (temporal or spiritual) to us are graces. Though I suppose we can recieve it by asking for it as well and it would do us well to do so.

The Church says that if you recieve grace (Gifts from God and Holy Spirit) then you should show gratitude by how you live (Doing things pleasing to God) which has been erroneously interpreted by some to mean that your somehow trying to earn your way to heaven.

Consider the source for these accusations, they usually come from self proclaimed enemies of the Church. These sources have many motives but what they amount to is trying to stop people from feeling obligated to God or responsible for themselves or from being loving to others. Hardly the service of the Lord. If your not serving God then who is left to serve? Self and satan and the world, there is none other.

Its not possible to obey Christs commands to Love God with all your heart, mind and soul and your neighbor as your self and not do good to them.

Whens the last time you encountered a poor beggar and refused to help him out if you had the means.

A sincere Christian would take him in. An enemy of the Church would discard him.

This is why I believe prejudice is anti-Christian and those poor souls who are prejudiced are the poor as well that we should try to help with words If I can.

[SIGN]Love yourself as God intends[/SIGN]

 

[SyCarl]

That is incorrect friend. Gods Grace is a free gift to us. All of Gods gifts (temporal or spiritual) to us are graces. Though I suppose we can recieve it by asking for it as well and it would do us well to do so.

The Church says that if you recieve grace (Gifts from God and Holy Spirit) then you should show gratitude by how you live (Doing things pleasing to God) which has been erroneously interpreted by some to mean that your somehow trying to earn your way to heaven.

Consider the source for these accusations, they usually come from self proclaimed enemies of the Church. These sources have many motives but what they amount to is trying to stop people from feeling obligated to God or responsible for themselves or from being loving to others. Hardly the service of the Lord. If your not serving God then who is left to serve? Self and satan and the world, there is none other.

I

I think that the following quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church gives Protestants the biggest problem. I agree that grace is a gift of God, but the quote seems to say that our works merit grace after baptism.

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.