We ARE saved by Works.

[KatholikosMercy]

I think that the following quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church gives Protestants the biggest problem. I agree that grace is a gift of God, but the quote seems to say that our works merit grace after baptism.

I immediately thought of the words of Jesus “ask and you shall recieve and to knock and the door shall be opened to you” and the admonition of how we who know how to give good things to our own children how much then our father in heaven gives.

Our children do things that encourage us to reward them do they not? And at other times our natural love for them moves us to freely bestow gifts on them.

This is the unchangable nature of God. He freely gives and he gives because we merit if by nothing more than by asking. Jesus said we must learn to ask correctly. To merit doesn’t mean we deserve. When we loose humitly we have no longer earned but become defiant.

 

[PastorVW]

As an Evangelical Pastor is a Wesleyan denomination, I have come to realize that we tend to view salvation as an event and a status, rather than a process.

**The NT speaks of salvation as a past event in our lives: ***(Eph 2:8 NIV) “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God” * This is what we tend to focus upon in the Evangelical community.

The NT also speaks of salvation as a present process: (2 Cor 2:15 NIV) “For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing.” Since we have already been forgiven and justified, I believe that this verse is speaking of sanctification - witch is clearly a part of the salvation message and clearly involves a changed life.

**The NT also speaks of salvation as a future event: ***(Mark 13:13 NIV) “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.” * Clearly this promise is conditional upon a work done by Grace - that is “standing firm until the end”

In my own community, while we preach and value the last two points, we usually do not use the term salvation to describe them. I think we often lack an expansive view of salvation.

I’m curious how the above relates to the Catholic position - and to our topic.

Thanks!

 

[lak611]

As an Evangelical Pastor is a Wesleyan denomination, I have come to realize that we tend to view salvation as an event and a status, rather than a process.

**The NT speaks of salvation as a past event in our lives: ***(Eph 2:8 NIV) “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God” * This is what we tend to focus upon in the Evangelical community.

The NT also speaks of salvation as a present process: (2 Cor 2:15 NIV) “For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing.” Since we have already been forgiven and justified, I believe that this verse is speaking of sanctification - witch is clearly a part of the salvation message and clearly involves a changed life.

**The NT also speaks of salvation as a future event: ***(Mark 13:13 NIV) “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.” * Clearly this promise is conditional upon a work done by Grace - that is “standing firm until the end”

In my own community, while we preach and value the last two points, we usually do not use the term salvation to describe them. I think we often lack an expansive view of salvation.

I’m curious how the above relates to the Catholic position - and to our topic.

Thanks!

You just gave the Catholic position!

 

[Techno2000]

As an Evangelical Pastor is a Wesleyan denomination, I have come to realize that we tend to view salvation as an event and a status, rather than a process.

**The NT speaks of salvation as a past event in our lives: ***(Eph 2:8 NIV) “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God” * This is what we tend to focus upon in the Evangelical community.

The NT also speaks of salvation as a present process: (2 Cor 2:15 NIV) “For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing.” Since we have already been forgiven and justified, I believe that this verse is speaking of sanctification - witch is clearly a part of the salvation message and clearly involves a changed life.

**The NT also speaks of salvation as a future event: ***(Mark 13:13 NIV) “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.” * Clearly this promise is conditional upon a work done by Grace - that is “standing firm until the end”

In my own community, while we preach and value the last two points, we usually do not use the term salvation to describe them. I think we often lack an expansive view of salvation.

I’m curious how the above relates to the Catholic position - and to our topic.

Thanks!

The Catholic position is Faith+Good Works+Grace=Heaven.

 

[Robert902]

Jesus gives us commandments that He expects us to keep, or else He wouldn’t have given them to us. That’s why their called “commandments”, not “suggestions”. I will reach that point someday, with His Grace!

I don’t understand what you are trying to say here? You say that He expects us to keep His commandments, and then you say that you will reach that point someday. Will that be here on this earth, or in heaven? For me it will be in heaven, because if I was able to keep them here, then I wouldn’t need a savior, like Jesus.

Amen!!! That’s what Catholics call Confession as we go to our “Ministers of Reconciliation”. By your argument, are you implying that Catholics don’t turn to God seeking His Mercy? That would be odd.

You were the one who said that when you sin, you turn away from God’s mercy. Don’t try and twist what I am saying, please!

That does not answer the question. It speeks nothing of judgment, and it is not in Christ’s words. Let me re-phrase the question:

Where in the Gospels does Christ tell us that we are judged by anything other than our actions?
Where in the Gospels does Christ tell us that we are judged by anything other than our actions?

Is that all Robert? Are you simply ignoring the fact that Jesus, the Good Shepherd is judging the sheep and the goats by what? Not by their Faith, for they all call out, ’Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’

Jesus last words on the cross were; “ït is finished.” He meant that His work on the cross was finished, our sins were paid for in full that day. True born again Christians will not be judged for their sins at the Great White Throne Judgement. God’s chosen will only be judged, and rewarded for what they did with what God had elected for them to do. That judgement will take place at the rapture.

 

[Robert902]

The “Bay-Bee” sounds better with an Austin Power accent. It’s nothing meant to deride you. Sorry if it came across that way.

So God chooses us, and that’s it. Then what’s it all about? I’m going to heaven or not if God chooses, and you’re going to heaven if God chooses or not? That’s what you get out of Scripture?

Read the words. If you have a preconceived notion, you won’t understand a lot of what God is trying to communicate to you through His word. The Bible is very clear that God has chosen certain people before the foundations of time. Those whom He chose He also called, predestined, justified and glorified. Read Romans 8:30.

In Jesus’ words, John 15 tells us: To “no longer remain” in the Body of Christ means someone was a part of the Body of Christ (They were Sanctified), but they turned to sin. This has been taught since the earlies times of the Church.
I’m sorry, Robert, but where does it say that? Jesus didn’t make any claims that “The son, because he was chosen by God, repented…”. I checked, even the KJV doesn’t make that claim.

I realize it doesn’t say chosen by God. But if you understand election it is obvioust that he was chosen by God. It would be redundant to continually refer to a true believer as God’s elect.

God Bless,
Robert

 

[Robert902]

Yes, the Church was builit on the Apostles, the Prophets, even on the blood of martyrs and all the faithful. No questions there. But who did Jesus give the keys to and what did Keys signify? Who exerted teaching authority all through Acts (1-15) when Luke concentrated on the development of doctrine?

Do you really think that the keys were only given to Peter? All believers have the keys. What are the keys? They are the words of God. God’s words are the keys to His kingdom.

God Bless,
Robert

 

[Robert902]

You make God sound like the grand Puppet-Master.

That’s your interpretation, not mine. 1 Thess. 5:20-21 “test all things, hold fast what is good.”

God Bless,
Robert

 

[NotWorthy]

I don’t understand what you are trying to say here? You say that He expects us to keep His commandments, and then you say that you will reach that point someday. Will that be here on this earth, or in heaven? For me it will be in heaven, because if I was able to keep them here, then I wouldn’t need a savior, like Jesus.

What I mean is, “Jesus gives us commandments that He expects us to keep”. Like you, though, I fail sometimes. But I’m getting stronger, and with God’s Grace, I will someday reach a point where I won’t fail anymore.

You were the one who said that when you sin, you turn away from God’s mercy. Don’t try and twist what I am saying, please!

No twisting, Robert. Easy now. I’m stating a simple Catholic belief.

When we sin, we are turning away from God, telling Him that we love the sin more than we love Him. Period. Or else why would we knowingly sin? Period (or would that be question mark?). Personally, that’s the reason that I repent and go to Confession. You simply trust in your pre-destination.

Jesus last words on the cross were; “ït is finished.” He meant that His work on the cross was finished, our sins were paid for in full that day. True born again Christians will not be judged for their sins at the Great White Throne Judgement. God’s chosen will only be judged, and rewarded for what they did with what God had elected for them to do. That judgement will take place at the rapture.

So again, you deny that Jesus will punish us for our sins. Interesting.

Now, Robert, I’m going to ask you one simple question.

Where in the Gospels, when Jesus is talking about our judgment, does he say we are going to be judged by anything other than our actions?

No, “It is Finished” statements, OK? You are making a MAJOR leap of Faith to mean that Jesus is talking about His Work is done and all of us “Pre-Destination’ers” can just sin our evil little hearts out because we know we’re going to heaven.

 

[NotWorthy]

Do you really think that the keys were only given to Peter? All believers have the keys. What are the keys? They are the words of God. God’s words are the keys to His kingdom.

God Bless,
Robert

I believe because I read Matthew 16:18. If I see where Jesus says this to anybody else in Scriptures, then I’ll believe it, too.

Robert, you are the one that grasps on to Sola Scriptura. Why does this argument seem backwards to me?

 

[NotWorthy]

That’s your interpretation, not mine. 1 Thess. 5:20-21 “test all things, hold fast what is good.”

God Bless,
Robert

I’ve been testing. It seems like you who are adding things to the bible.

When I ask you to tell me where Jesus states that we are judged by anything other than our actions, you say you are pre-destined. Tell me where Jesus says he’s NOT going to judge us by our actions, but instead by those who received the golden ticket.

When I tell you Peter received the keys, you say more people have received it, yet you can’t show where Jesus says this to anybody other than Peter? I know, I know, I haven’t given you time to respond to that one yet.

 

[NotWorthy]

I realize it doesn’t say chosen by God. But if you understand election it is obvioust that he was chosen by God. It would be redundant to continually refer to a true believer as God’s elect.

God Bless,
Robert

How can it be redundant when Jesus doesn’t say it even one time? No where in the Parable does Jesus make the case that this young man is chosen by God, not even once.

To be redundant, you have to state it at least once previously. And you’ve got to understand. You are quoting Romans, something that was written 20 years after Jesus’ death (give or take 5 years).

Jesus was talking to people that were not familiar with this pre-destined theory, so he would have had to explain it to them. He doesn’t. He’s not redundant, he’s evasive, if this is the theory your going to try to hold onto.

 

[Robert902]

I’ve been testing. It seems like you who are adding things to the bible.

When I ask you to tell me where Jesus states that we are judged by anything other than our actions, you say you are pre-destined. Tell me where Jesus says he’s NOT going to judge us by our actions, but instead by those who received the golden ticket.

Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
Our sin, but Jesus paid the penalty by dying on the cross. Why would He judge us for something that He already paid For?

Eph. 1:14 “Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession to the praise of His glory.”
Our inheritance has a guarantee. And our sin can’t void that guarantee.

Romans 8:33 “Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.”
Our sins have been justified by God. Not by anything we have done, but by what Jesus has done.

When I tell you Peter received the keys, you say more people have received it, yet you can’t show where Jesus says this to anybody other than Peter? I know, I know, I haven’t given you time to respond to that one yet.

He did say it but not in those exact words. That is what the “great commission” is all about. When you or I share the gospel with someone, we have the “keys” or the keys to salvation or heaven for them if they choose to accept God’s gift.

God Bless,
Robert

 

[Robert902]

What I mean is, “Jesus gives us commandments that He expects us to keep”. Like you, though, I fail sometimes. But I’m getting stronger, and with God’s Grace, I will someday reach a point where I won’t fail anymore.
No twisting, Robert. Easy now. I’m stating a simple Catholic belief.

When we sin, we are turning away from God, telling Him that we love the sin more than we love Him. Period. Or else why would we knowingly sin? Period (or would that be question mark?). Personally, that’s the reason that I repent and go to Confession. You simply trust in your pre-destination.

I do have confidence in that God has chosen me. I trust His word, and if He tells me that I was chosen before the foundations of time, I believe Him. Like you, I also repent and confess my sins.

So again, you deny that Jesus will punish us for our sins. Interesting.

Now, Robert, I’m going to ask you one simple question.

Where in the Gospels, when Jesus is talking about our judgment, does he say we are going to be judged by anything other than our actions?

No, “It is Finished” statements, OK? You are making a MAJOR leap of Faith to mean that Jesus is talking about His Work is done and all of us “Pre-Destination’ers” can just sin our evil little hearts out because we know we’re going to heaven.

The Bible never tells us to sit on our evil little hearts, just because of our status as one of God’s chosen. Actually it is just the opposite. Read John 15:1-4.

God Bless,
Robert

 

[NotWorthy]

Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
Our sin, but Jesus paid the penalty by dying on the cross. Why would He judge us for something that He already paid For?

I DON’T KNOW!!! ASK HIM!!!

When Jesus talks of our judgment, he bases it on our actions. I’ve asked you numerous times to show where He claims any other judgment, then our actions. You can’t provide it.

I’m sorry that you are stuck in this theology, “Trust Jesus, but don’t believe in HIs words”.

Eph. 1:14 “Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession to the praise of His glory.”
Our inheritance has a guarantee. And our sin can’t void that guarantee.

Romans 8:33 “Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.”
Our sins have been justified by God. Not by anything we have done, but by what Jesus has done.[/qotte]

He did say it but not in those exact words. That is what the “great commission” is all about. When you or I share the gospel with someone, we have the “keys” or the keys to salvation or heaven for them if they choose to accept God’s gift.

God Bless,
Robert

What do you mean, the commission comes with the keys? No where in Jewish Tradition or any other context does this happen to justify this position.

 

[NotWorthy]

The Bible never tells us to sit on our evil little hearts, just because of our status as one of God’s chosen. Actually it is just the opposite. Read John 15:1-4.

God Bless,
Robert

I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower. He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes so that it bears more fruit. You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you. Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me.OK, that’s good. You’re finally coming around by showing that Jesus will take us away if we do not bear fruit. You’re learning Robert!!!

Now, just keep reading John 15. to continue this thought.

Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you.

Jesus again shows that You can be part of the vine, but you will be cut off if you do not remain in His Love. Your actions can cut you off.

 

[Robert902]

I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower. He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes so that it bears more fruit. You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you. Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me.

OK, that’s good. You’re finally coming around by showing that Jesus will take us away if we do not bear fruit. You’re learning Robert!!!

I am learning. But Jesus will not take away His gift of salvation, because of our works, or lack of works. “Ye are saved by grace through faith, not of works, lest any man boast.” The work of salvation was done by Jesus on the cross.
I’m not saying that works aren’t important. They are, and God will reward us for the things that we have done in His name.

Now, just keep reading John 15. to continue this thought.

Jesus again shows that You can be part of the vine, but you will be cut off if you do not remain in His Love. Your actions can cut you off.

This is talking about our fruit bearing, the product of our salvation. It is not talking about how we are to be saved!
A branch that is not abiding in Christ “is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” This is is amplified by 1 Cor 3:15: “If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so by fire.”

God Bless,
Robert

 

[Robert902]

I DON’T KNOW!!! ASK HIM!!!

When Jesus talks of our judgment, he bases it on our actions. I’ve asked you numerous times to show where He claims any other judgment, then our actions. You can’t provide it.

I’m sorry that you are stuck in this theology, “Trust Jesus, but don’t believe in HIs words”.

Eph. 1:14 “Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession to the praise of His glory.”
Our inheritance has a guarantee. And our sin can’t void that guarantee.

 

[Holy_Trinity]

Hello Brothers in Christ,

I had interpreted and summarized Revelation of St. John the Divine
and come-up with a very good answers to what you are trying to understand in the future:

1. What St. John is trying to tell before the 2nd coming of our Lord Jesus is a Great Earthquake so great that in just an hour
   almost 50% of the population of humankind will perish and the remaining 50% will survive-supported by the parable of Jesus when he answer one who question him “when the end will come,one will be taken one be left”.After this people(survivors) will see Jesus and the 144,000 1st faithful who died for the caused of Christianity winning the battles against satan and his followers and death to them except satan who was put in bottomless pit.
   2)Total peace will be of humankind why?..because satan was no more he his chained and locked for 1000years.Jesus and the 1st 144,000 ressurrected bodies will be amongst the people with only one teachings for the people to know.
   3)After 1,000 years satan will be released and during his 3 1/2 years of deceiving the people many more will follow satan but the who got hold of the teachings of Christ will not die on the Last Judgment…they will automatically goes to Heaven of course all who followed the way of the Lord who are dead already before will also inherit the Kingdom Of God as read in the revelation.Segregation of bad and good as part of judgment day where 2books will be open.1 is the Bible and the other 1 is the Book of Life.

Dear Brothers lets be happy to wait on the Great Earthquake because that is the 1st happiness that will happen…Total Peace in 1,000years pray that we will be faithful and do Good manners and things on earth Love one another.
Maybe you will ask if 50% will survive how does their body can recover to be normal again…Jesus has the power to heal the power that only God can do so even our eyes was out our hands was out our legs was out so many wounds at instant it will come-back to normal.How powerful is God isnt’ it?

Please dont’ hesitate to ask from me ang to comment to my undestanding of Revelation.

God Bless

 

[Robert902]

I DON’T KNOW!!! ASK HIM!!!

When Jesus talks of our judgment, he bases it on our actions. I’ve asked you numerous times to show where He claims any other judgment, then our actions. You can’t provide it.

I have provided it, and I’ve answered this same question numerous times!

Read Romans 5:1-11 "Therefore since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into His grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character, and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out His love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom He has given us. You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through Him! For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life! Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

I’m sorry that you are stuck in this theology, “Trust Jesus, but don’t believe in HIs words”.

I’m sorry if you have come to this erroneous conclusion, but I trust Jesus, because of His word. "

John 10:3-16 “My sheep hear my voice.”

Gal. 1:12 “For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.”

2 Tim. 3:16-17 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works”

Paul wrote that the natural mind cannot understand spiritual things (1Cor. 2:14)

God Bless,
Robert