We ARE saved by Works.

[truthnlight]

Well, how do you explain what John says here?

Those are wrong who put a mere notional belief of the gospel for the whole of evangelical religion, as many now do. No doubt, true faith alone, whereby men have part in Christ’s righteousness, atonement, and grace, saves their souls; but it produces holy fruits, and is shown to be real by its effect on their works; while mere assent to any form of doctrine, or mere historical belief of any facts, wholly differs from this saving faith. A bare profession may gain the good opinion of pious people; and it may procure, in some cases, worldly good things; but what profit will it be, for any to gain the whole world, and to lose their souls? Can this faith save him? All things should be accounted profitable or unprofitable to us, as they tend to forward or hinder the salvation of our souls. This place of Scripture plainly shows that an opinion, or assent to the gospel, without works, is not faith. There is no way to show we really believe in Christ, but by being diligent in good works, from gospel motives, and for gospel purposes. Men may boast to others, and be conceited of that which they really have not. There is not only to be assent in faith, but consent; not only an assent to the truth of the word, but a consent to take Christ. True believing is not an act of the understanding only, but a work of the whole heart. That a justifying faith cannot be without works, is shown from two examples, Abraham and Rahab. Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. Faith, producing such works, advanced him to peculiar favours. We see then, ver.24, how that by works a man is justified, not by a bare opinion or profession, or believing without obeying; but by having such faith as produces good works. And to have to deny his own reason, affections, and interests, is an action fit to try a believer. Observe here, the wonderful power of faith in changing sinners. Rahab’s conduct proved her faith to be living, or having power; it showed that she believed with her heart, not merely by an assent of the understanding. Let us then take heed, for the best works, without faith, are dead; they want root and principle. By faith any thing we do is really good; as done in obedience to God, and aiming at his acceptance: the root is as though it were dead, when there is no fruit. Faith is the root, good works are the fruits; and we must see to it that we have both. This is the grace of God wherein we stand, and we should stand to it. There is no middle state. Every one must either live God’s friend, or God’s enemy. Living to God, as it is the consequence of faith, which justifies and will save, obliges us to do nothing against him, but every thing for him and to him.
Matthew Henry

 

[guanophore]

If we are saved by our good works, how many good work do we have to do in order to be saved?

Just one. It is found in John 6:29

"Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

 

[guanophore]

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.–Ephesians 2:8-10

Knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives He lives to God (Rom. 6:10).

. Galatians001:001 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
001:002 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
001:003 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
001:004 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
001:005 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
001:006 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto ANOTHER GOSPEL
001:007 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would PERVERT the gospel of Christ.
001:008 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Judaizers

1. Belief in Jesus as Messiah and Son of God
2. Circumcision
3. Become a Jew
4. Sacrificial System
5. Priests
6. High Priests
7. Altars
8. Feast Days
9. Laver of Water
10. Dietary Regulations
11. Candles
12. Incense
13. Shew Bread
14. Keep the Ten Commandments
15. Tradition of the Elders

Roman Catholicism

1. Belief in Jesus as Messiah and Son of God
2. Baptism
3. Become a Roman Catholic
4. Sacrificial System
5. Priests
6. High Priests
7. Altars
8. Feast Days
9. Font of Holy Water
10. Dietary Regulations (Until recently)
11. Candles
12. Incense
13. The Eucharist Wafer
14. Keep the Ten Commandments
15. Tradition of the Church Fathers

The parallels are obvious. Paul warned the Galatian believers that if they embraced this false gospel they would actually desert Christ (Gal. 1:6).

I understand how it is easy to get confused when you are on the outside looking in. It appears this way because you do not understand. It is likely that you have been misled through no fault of your own about what Catholics believe.

Roman Catholicism

1. Belief in Jesus as Messiah and Son of God

Is this not a belief that our separated brothers and sisters?

 

[guanophore]

1. Baptism

Do you think that Jesus did not command this?

Matt 28:18-20
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

1. Become a Roman Catholic

This is an error. One does not have to become Roman to be saved.

1. Sacrificial System

This is also an error. Catholics have no “sacrificial system”.

We eagerly await the fulfillment of our salvation through He who sacrificed Himself for us:

" Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." Heb 9:28

We believe that we are to offer ourselves in sacrifice to God:

Rom 12:1-2
12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect."

We believe that, in uniting our own personal suffering with that of Jesus, we can benefit His body, the church:

24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I **complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions **for the sake of his body, that is, the church,Col 1:24

1. Priests

Jesus gave us His example,

14 Since then we have a **great high priest **who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. Heb 4:14

He passed on His ministry to His apostles:
John 20:22-23
“Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

And they in turn ordained elders (priests) in all the communities.

James 5:14
Let him call for the elders (priest) of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;"

Titus 1:5
and appoint elders(priests) in every town as I directed you,

1. High Priests

This is an error also. There are no “high priests” in Catholicism. Bishops, Cardinals, and the Pope are all first Priests. they have different responsibilites.

1. Altars

This is an error too. there is only one altar, that upon which the sacrifice of Jesus is celebrated.

1 Cor 11:24-26
24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes."

 

[guanophore]

1. Feast Days

And days of fast.

Mark 2:19-21
19 And Jesus said to them, "Can the wedding guests fast while the bridegroom is with them? As long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast. 20 The days will come, when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast in that day.

Be careful lest you fall in with "those of this generation "(the culture of death)

Matt 11:16-19

16 "But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates,

17’We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’

18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon’; 19 the Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds."

1. Font of Holy Water

The holy water reminds us of our baptism,and we bless ourselves with it when going out, and coming in, as a reminder. In baptism, we are washed clean of our sins, and God places a new spirit within us:

" I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances. " Ezek 36:25-28

21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience," I Pet 3:21

Heb 10:21-22
22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our **hearts sprinkled clean **from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. (the cleansing that occurs during baptism)

1. Dietary Regulations (Until recently)

This is an error. Catholicism never had any “dietary regulations”.

1. Candles

Candles remind us of Christ, who is our Light!

Gen 1:3-4
3 And God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.

John 8:11-12
12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world; he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

1. Incense

Incense reminds us of the heavenly worship of which we partake, though through the veil of the flesh. We are part of the communion of saints (the great cloud of witnesses Heb 12:1-2) and we join our prayers with them:

Rev 5:8
elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;

Rev 8:4
and the smoke of the incense rose with **the prayers of the saints **from the hand of the angel before God."

 

[guanophore]

1. The Eucharist Wafer

You misunderstand about it’s nature. Once it becomes eucharist, it is no longer a “wafer”, but the body of the Lord.

26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” Matt 26:26

John 6:49-51
50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."

1. Keep the Ten Commandments

Jesus did not come to abolish the commandments, but to fulfill them. He enabled us to keep them by His spirit (see above quote from Ezekiel " 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances. " Ezek 36:25-28

Matt 5:18-20
19 Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

5 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.”

1. Tradition of the Church Fathers

Indeed, which we call the Apostolic Succession

2 Tim 2:1-2
2:1 You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, 2 and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also."

2 Thess 2:15
5 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter."

And so we do!

 

[KatholikosMercy]

Indeed, which we call the Apostolic Succession

2 Tim 2:1-2
2:1 You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, 2 and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also."

2 Thess 2:15
5 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter."

And so we do!

Always love to hear these verses. Nice job, Kudos!

 

[justacloserwalk]

I would suggest that all of the posts be read, I am directing this to the brethren that compared salvation through Catholic Church and what was being warned against in Galations.

1.It is by GRACE we have salvation. We can not “earn” it.
2.Grace produces FAITH by which we believe.
3.BELIEF results in WORKS.
This is my opinion only:
If a life that is professing belief in Jesus Christ as Savior, there will be works to support that belief.
Abraham believed, even as he was prepared to sacrifice his son.
Faith and Works.
Faith isn’t passive, it is active.
If I were saved by works alone, that would mean I did it on my own merits.
If I say I have faith, but there are no “works” then am I really saved?
Read James for yourself.

There is some question about knowing if you are saved or not…“assurance” of salvation. I have hope of salvation, I have, am and will be saved…it is a process.

In Matt 7:21-23 Jesus seems to be saying that there are many who do “works” in His name that at the Last Judgement are not known by Him, only those who do the “Will of the Father”
What is the will of the Father? To BELIEVE in Him (Jesus)
It seems that works without faith is a dead faith.
Below those who are recieved into heaven ask “when did we do this for you”?
People who place their faith in Jesus Christ act in accordance with that faith.
so…faith and works.
Arguing how we get it seems silly if you consider those who are debating the point have it or I should say are trusting Jesus Christ for it (salvation)

Read Matt 25:
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37"Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40"The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’

41"Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44"They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45"He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

[truthnlight]

No, we are NOT saved by works. Stop feeding the ignorance of people. We are saved by Jesus Christ and that salvation is undeserved. We work BECAUSE of our faith.

Praise The Lord

 

[KatholikosMercy]

No, we are NOT saved by works. Stop feeding the ignorance of people. We are saved by Jesus Christ and that salvation is undeserved. We work BECAUSE of our faith.

The ignorance being fed is that works are not necessary which in turn makes peoples faith worthless and denies the reception of the grace offered from God. It is the rocks that choke the good seed.

This statement needs to be made to counter that ignornance.

Its good to hear you know that YOUR faith is proved by performing works.

I would then say look to the sacraments and corporal works of mercy for what your lacking.

 

[Nino]

We are saved by works, hm…maybe should come after this sequence. We are saved by grace → faith → work. Salvation is not a one time thing. It is a on going one until we die…
Once we are saved by grace and eventually we will develop our faith with God and then we will have works like fruit of the spirit and then be like God love pple fervently, help the poor, have a compassion to heart to put others in front of us…blar…blar…

 

[Nino]

good for you…of course we are…Luther not withstanding…works like teaching the young how to be civil and moral in a secular society…in a soup kitchen for those who have worked their entire lives yet have so little to exist on…as in the boy and girl scouts…be good to your neighbor…get off your duff and help a poor soul to move that load he and she is pulling…good post…Nino

 

[ronnok20]

I would like to weigh in on this. We are not saved by works, we are saved by faith. The confusion herein lies that one cannot coexist without the other in the name of Christ. Proper faith contains works. Scripture says that faith without works is dead. But, we cannot be saved by works. If we could, then we wouldn’t have needed Jesus to sacrifice himself for our sins. We do good works because we are saved not because we need to do them to be saved. We do good works because that is part of the Christian life that Jesus proclaimed for us. But remember, when the apostles went to chase the childen away from Jesus, he stopped them and said that one must accept Heaven like a child would accept a gift. If you ever saw a small child at Christmas time, you would easily get the picture. We cannot earn Heaven, we must have faith that Jesus taught us to have to accept it.

 

[KatholikosMercy]

I would like to weigh in on this. We are not saved by works, we are saved by faith. The confusion herein lies that one cannot coexist without the other in the name of Christ. Proper faith contains works. Scripture says that faith without works is dead. But, we cannot be saved by works. If we could, then we wouldn’t have needed Jesus to sacrifice himself for our sins. We do good works because we are saved not because we need to do them to be saved. We do good works because that is part of the Christian life that Jesus proclaimed for us. But remember, when the apostles went to chase the childen away from Jesus, he stopped them and said that one must accept Heaven like a child would accept a gift. If you ever saw a small child at Christmas time, you would easily get the picture. We cannot earn Heaven, we must have faith that Jesus taught us to have to accept it.

Understood and commendable orthodoxy. The intent of the title of the thread is to address the skeleton doctrine of Faith Alone that pretends sacraments or corporal works of mercy are superfluous.

There are those who actually believe and preach that to accept doing good as a result of your faith is to not trust God (once saved always saved) when Jesus himself instructs us to do good works with his teachings.

 

[KatholikosMercy]

Just one. It is found in John 6:29

"Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

I would then ask, To believe on Him would you not then learn of him?
and
Then do as he said which would be to feed the hungry, clothe the nekid, and give to the poor of your abundance?

You see Faith and the work of planting my feet on the floor in the morning are intertwined and inseperable.

Let us be like minded and go forth and make disciples of all men.
(even if we have to call it a work).

 

[MariaG]

Those are wrong who put a mere notional belief of the gospel for the whole of evangelical religion, as many now do. No doubt, true faith alone, whereby men have part in Christ’s righteousness, atonement, and grace, saves their souls; but it produces holy fruits, and is shown to be real by its effect on their works; while mere assent to any form of doctrine, or mere historical belief of any facts, wholly differs from this saving faith. A bare profession may gain the good opinion of pious people; and it may procure, in some cases, worldly good things; but what profit will it be, for any to gain the whole world, and to lose their souls? Can this faith save him? All things should be accounted profitable or unprofitable to us, as they tend to forward or hinder the salvation of our souls. This place of Scripture plainly shows that an opinion, or assent to the gospel, without works, is not faith. There is no way to show we really believe in Christ, but by being diligent in good works, from gospel motives, and for gospel purposes. Men may boast to others, and be conceited of that which they really have not. There is not only to be assent in faith, but consent; not only an assent to the truth of the word, but a consent to take Christ. True believing is not an act of the understanding only, but a work of the whole heart. That a justifying faith cannot be without works, is shown from two examples, Abraham and Rahab. Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. Faith, producing such works, advanced him to peculiar favours. We see then, ver.24, how that by works a man is justified, not by a bare opinion or profession, or believing without obeying; but by having such faith as produces good works. And to have to deny his own reason, affections, and interests, is an action fit to try a believer. Observe here, the wonderful power of faith in changing sinners. Rahab’s conduct proved her faith to be living, or having power; it showed that she believed with her heart, not merely by an assent of the understanding. Let us then take heed, for the best works, without faith, are dead; they want root and principle. By faith any thing we do is really good; as done in obedience to God, and aiming at his acceptance: the root is as though it were dead, when there is no fruit. Faith is the root, good works are the fruits; and we must see to it that we have both. This is the grace of God wherein we stand, and we should stand to it. There is no middle state. Every one must either live God’s friend, or God’s enemy. Living to God, as it is the consequence of faith, which justifies and will save, obliges us to do nothing against him, but every thing for him and to him.
Matthew Henry

This sounds very Catholic.

The only difference is Catholics define Faith as intellectual assent alone. (Then one does not need to put qualifiers on it like “saving” faith or dead faith).

Hope- in its widest acceptation, is described as the desire of something together with the expectation of obtaining it.

And Charity- The third and greatest of the Divine virtues enumerated by St. Paul (1 Corinthians 13:13), usually called charity, defined: a divinely infused habit, inclining the human will to cherish God for his own sake above all things, and man for the sake of God.

So one must have faith, hope, and charity or commonly called “faith working in love”.

So Catholics agree with you that faith, which is intellectual assent alone, will gain you nothing. But only faith that produces fruit is a “saving faith”.

And since Catholics define faith as intellectual assent alone, this is why we never say we are saved by faith alone, (intellectual assent alone) for this would be a dead faith.

 

[Giovanni]

We are saved by faith and works.

No wait, faith alone and the h____ with everyone else.
No wait, I think I should at least try to be nice to one person, no, just my dog, wait how about …

I hate this stupid argument, I can’t believe people keep bringing it up, how can educated, God loving people not realize that you cannot have faith in God, love God, and yet do not need works.
Works will happen because of faith, if not, well, God will sort it out.

 

[KatholikosMercy]

We are saved by faith and works.

No wait, faith alone and the h____ with everyone else.
No wait, I think I should at least try to be nice to one person, no, just my dog, wait how about …

I hate this stupid argument, I can’t believe people keep bringing it up, how can educated, God loving people not realize that you cannot have faith in God, love God, and yet do not need works.
Works will happen because of faith, if not, well, God will sort it out.

Lol. Your right its a stupid arguement but I think we learn alot from it.

I love this question of yours:

“how can educated, God loving people not realize that you cannot have faith in God, love God, and yet do not need works.”

New thread perhaps for this question. Maybe we can find out “why”.

I know satan and our own concupisense and shortcomings of neglect are part of the reason.

I mean if I’m lazy and feel guilty it would be just easier for me to rationalize that Jesus will save me anyway no matter how much I neglect his commands. Yikes.

A verse for us all I ran into today that hit home and fits here:

1Ti 5:8 But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially his family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

 

[justacloserwalk]

I have to chuckle at how many ways we have looked at this subject.
The average pew sitter doesn’t tear this apart the way we have.
We struggle, we pray…we fall and we get up and start all over again.
The Lord is never far out of my mind and it would seem He is in your thoughts as well.
I think that is a good thing. Love you guys!
Jesus IS Lord!!
Barbara

 

[PauloFreire2]

If you have no works your faith is dead and you may as well not have any faith because you aren’t saved. To think you will get over with claiming you have faith and then do nothing as a confirming result you are decieving yourself.

What types of works save us? All kinds actually because many things we do can prove we truly believe.

1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it. But “faith apart from works is dead”: when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.

2447 The works of mercy are charitable actions by which we come to the aid of our neighbor in his spiritual and bodily necessities. Instructing, advising, consoling, comforting are spiritual works of mercy, as are forgiving and bearing wrongs patiently. The corporal works of mercy consist especially in feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned, and burying the dead. Among all these, giving alms to the poor is one of the chief witnesses to fraternal charity: it is also a work of justice pleasing to God:

He who has two coats, let him share with him who has none and he who has food must do likewise. But give for alms those things which are within; and behold, everything is clean for you. If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?

1430 Jesus’ call to conversion and penance, like that of the prophets before him, does not aim first at outward works, “sackcloth and ashes,” fasting and mortification, but at the conversion of the heart, interior conversion. Without this, such penances remain sterile and false; however, interior conversion urges expression in visible signs, gestures and works of penance.
scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

We certainy are saved in large part by what we do. Jesus was a spiritual revolutionary. What He did was obviously of monumental importance. We are called to follower and spread His truth, to die for it, if necessary, as He did, to fight Evil whenever we encounter it, as He did, and to rise up in the spirit of The People, after we are killed, to further the cause of justice. We must seek to live as Jesus lived, and we cannot do that if we conclude that God is a judge who has decided that we are ‘saved’ even before we have fully lived. No…what we do is vitally important. What we do with our faith, our knowledge of the example of Jesus, is the greatest of all concerns. :knight1: