F
fix
Guest
Ok, so I am the Church too by his reasoning and we disagree. Which one of us is correct?
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P
PC_Master
Guest
The question is, what is “the church”? For Roman Catholics, yes, there is a defined earthly organization, with defined earthly leaders, which constitutes “the church”, but the protestant distinction is that this isn’t what Jesus intended for his people. Until you attempt to understand that thought process, you’re really not going to get anywhere in explaining the Roman Catholic position.
Q
quasimodo
Guest
The Church believes in both a visible (defined earthly organization, with defined earthly leaders) and an invisible, spiritual community of believers, and (with proper understanding) it teaches that the “invisible” church is the greater reality. This does not however deny the importance of the “defined earthly organization, with defined earthly leaders.”
“We are the church” is true, but not every member is the whole church, nor does every member have the same role (the eye is not the toe and the toe is not the whole foot). If every man where to be the magisterium, then there would be thousands of different competing beliefs … oh wait…never mind.
T
tabcom
Guest
The answer is not a moral relative one. Scripture addresses this question . . .
Matt 18:
11 "If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
16
If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’
17
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Also, Paul talks about a member of the church having an affair with his step-mother in Corinth. Paul instructs the church to withdraw from him.
A
Asgaut
Guest
Is it really? I didn’t think it was possible to gather in Christ’s name with 2 or 3 people with yourself only.
A
Asgaut
Guest
Not quite, WE ARE THE CHURCH is saying the group of people that gather in Christ’s name are THE Church of God, not a building… The Holy Spirit influences his believers when you take that first step of faith, and when you gather in Christ’s name the Holy Spirit will continue on in His plan and speak truth THROUGH you… Christ will be in the midst of that gathering to make sure no harm is done to them “for the Gates of Hell will not prevail against it.”
You saying that you disagree with this fact is saying you don’t believe in God’s actual church… so that can’t be the Holy Spirit’s words coming from your mouth, but your own, or the Catholic Church’s.
C
cpayne
Guest
Sorry, but every single Protestant would say the exact same thing, even as the “Holy Spirit” “reveals” to them “the truth” which is exactly opposite “the truth” which is “revealed” by the “Holy Spirit” to other believers.
I’m not minimizing the role of the Holy Spirit (no quotation marks) in the individual lives of Christ’s people. But the Holy Spirit also works through the teaching authority of the Church (Magisterium, in other words).
Just an example: A Bible-believing, Spirit-led Christian believes that praying in tongues is for today and is a valid experience. Another Bible-believing, Spirit-led Christian believes this experience is demonic. As soon as the Holy Spirit reveals to the Protestant Church as a whole which one is right, let me know.
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Asgaut
Guest
He does? Where does the Bible teach that?
I have based my beliefs on scripture… you can’t deny scripture.
“For where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them” -Matthew 18:20
The prime example of Christ with his Church
“Even the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him, for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.”
The Holy Spirit will influence the followers of Christ… So how can you go wrong if you truthfully follow Christ? Perhaps the Catholic Church has been incorrect in its teachings because it’s fundamental teachings and beliefs have been incorrect? Salvation is not by Faith and Works… but by faith only, and I can justify that answer if so needed- no verse can disprove that belief- sure, works is involved in that process of faith but I’ll leave my answer to the end. The reason your teachings may be incorrect is because of the lack of the Holy Spirit’s inspiration, God saith that Abraham believed and did works, his works DID bring him glory, but not in God’s Eyes… So the Catholic Church musn’t be in glory, and if not in glory, they don’t receive proper inspiration.
A
Asgaut
Guest
Forgive me for that bit of ignorance, but if that came out odd to you, I’ll clarify… you made it sound like the Holy Spirit mainly inspires the church’s teaching authority only and doesn’t just as commonly use other people… If that’s what you were trying to say, or anything along those lines, that’s what I’d like to see Scripture for.
C
cpayne
Guest
:coffeeread:
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Asgaut
Guest
Certainly, certainly… whenever I can actually form a proper church we’ll ask God to reveal it to us all- I doubt you will believe it nevertheless
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PC_Master
Guest
You make the mistake of assuming Protestants to believe themselves as having the same infallibility as the magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church claims to have. Protestants may disagree with one another, but they also know that they may be wrong about any given issue, and so there’s no problem.
On the other hand, since the Roman Catholic Church claims infallibility, it, by definition, cannot have any differing views without entering into moral relativism, and so you project that same quality on Protestants which really isn’t accurate.
G
guanophore
Guest
How do the Protestants come to the conclusion that Jesus did not want a visible Church?
Why did Jesus teach that by their unity, all would know that they were Christians?
F
fix
Guest
The OP issue is relativism. Simply claiming one is the Church does not mean one is in communion or infallible. The point is simple declarations of this type are ambiguous without proper context.
Or, only emphasizing part of a truth while denying the entire truth is really making a lie.
F
fix
Guest
That the HolySpirit will be there does not mean those present correctly discern the matter. Then there is the matter of correctly discerning if it is the Holy Spirit and not the evil spirit or the human spirit.
A
Alfgeir
Guest
I could say the same thing about the Catholic Church, and strangely enough
that’s all I’ve been hitting on since I’ve been here… The Catholic Church is led by man and claims can not prove that the Holy Spirit inspires that Church… This is why the Catholic Church is fallible, this is why I don’t rely on Church.Should you still believe the Catholic Church is infallible, know again it is led by man, and our nature is very sinful, and temptations always seem to get the best of us… ALWAYS… Only GOD is infallible, the Holy Spirit which influences the Church is what makes the Church SOMEWHAT true, NOT the claims of constant inspiration… I’m certain greedy men will want to make THEIR voice heard instead of others.
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Church_Militant
Guest
I suggest that you make your case (preferably in a single thread per issue) by citing any instance that you have found where there is a fallible error of man in Catholic teachings so that we can discuss that.I could say the same thing about the Catholic Church, and strangely enough
Should you still believe the Catholic Church is infallible, know again it is led by man, and our nature is very sinful, and temptations always seem to get the best of us… ALWAYS… Only GOD is infallible, the Holy Spirit which influences the Church is what makes the Church SOMEWHAT true, NOT the claims of constant inspiration… I’m certain greedy men will want to make THEIR voice heard instead of others.
At this point I would say that you are offering a blanket generalization without substantive proof.
I would also point out that it is best to discard the n-C faith communities as examples because none of them existed prior to about 500 years ago, and their myriad of diverse interpretations all offered as Biblically correct would (IMO) better display the fallibility of the teachings of men than the Catholic Church ever will.
I encourage you to open single threads on each instance that you feel supports your statement and assure you that you can count on my faithful Catholic brothers and sisters and I to deal with each one as you do so.
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Alfgeir
Guest
I call this one “Denial of Scripture”
G
guanophore
Guest
I am confused. What in that post in any way denies scripture?
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Church_Militant
Guest
Open a new thread and let’s discuss it then, but this is not the place for it as it is not the topic of this thread.
Note: I offer to discuss it, and they bail. Go figure…
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