We cannot understand free will

[LethalMouse]

Look at my religion: Wherever it may go. I search the truth and let my mind to be free.

I have another thread on free will. You can find it here.

Yes, but you also have said now that Satan rules you and tells you things. You deny his influence on your “logic” but since chatting with satan you have become at odds with literally EVERY other logic that has ever existed with anyone… please get assistance…

 

[Bahman]

Yes, but you also have said now that Satan rules you and tells you things. You deny his influence on your “logic” but since chatting with satan you have become at odds with literally EVERY other logic that has ever existed with anyone… please get assistance…

How you could be sure that you are not ruled by Satan? He is very tricky and his intelligence and power are far beyond ours. You don’t need to worry about me, he cheated me sometimes but I am getting better and better by time. It is a good mental exercise!

By the way what is your opinion about this thread?

 

[Bookcat]

1. Free will is the ability to choose one option among at lease two options
2. Assume that we are cognitively open to free will
3. This means that given the options one can precisely know the outcome our decisions
4. This means that our decisions are like outcome of a function
5. This means that our decisions are not free

In reasoning and with my free will I freely now choose to disregard these thoughts.

Oh and to post from the Catechism

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a3.htm#1731

And I choose to freely wish you a wonderful day today

Oh oh…THREE acts of free will on only one post!..freely chosen

 

[kdbueno]

1. Free will is the ability to choose one option among at lease two options
2. Assume that we are cognitively open to free will
3. This means that given the options one can precisely know the outcome our decisions
4. This means that our decisions are like outcome of a function
5. This means that our decisions are not free

Free will allows us to understand the supreme morality of reality.

 

[LethalMouse]

How you could be sure that you are not ruled by Satan? He is very tricky and his intelligence and power are far beyond ours. You don’t need to worry about me, he cheated me sometimes but I am getting better and better by time. It is a good mental exercise!

By the way what is your opinion about this thread?

I have had experiences that line up with the typical, ergo I am not ruled by Satan. I fear not satan or his wiles. When one finds God, Satan has no power. See my signature

I expressed my opinion of the thread by posting your other thread that disagrees with this one.

Free will is why Satan does not “rule”. If you stood in the presence of a king and were given an order even then the rule of the king over you is contingent upon your consent. Satan tossing out some trick questions does not “rule” anymore than Bah man saying that my religion is wrong via his tricky logic. In order for Satan to rule you by the logic you put forth, then everyone who is less intelligent than you would ditch their faiths and follow Bahamn… They do not because free will is greater than intellectual trickery.

 

[GEddie]

I’m sure there’s although codes for those on a keyboard that would allow them to type déjà vu.

Depends upon the keyboard; that’s where shift and F2 and such come in.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Lion_IRC]

1. Free will is the ability to choose one option among at lease two options
2. Assume that we are cognitively open to free will
3. This means that given the options one can precisely know our decisions
4. This means that our decisions are like outcome of a function
5. This means that our decisions are not free

You’re not presenting an argument here. You’re just redefining words.

The verb ‘to decide’ means to choose.
If a person has no free will control over their ‘choice’ we already have language to describe that situation - it’s called compulsion.

These are two opposite categories.
Optional. Compulsory.
Intentional. Unintentional.
Deliberate. Accidental.

All you are doing is stating what we already know - that a lack of ability to choose isn’t free will.

But FREE will is free isn’t it?

I agree with you that if I have no choice but to do “A” then I haven’t freely chosen “A”
But you surely agree that there can be instances where I have the ability to freely choose
A, B, C, D, E… And that the sheer availability of ‘menu options’ implies the existence of choice.

Ask yourself what happens to the rule of law if the criminal can claim that they had no freedom to choose between legal and illegal action.

 

[Bahman]

In reasoning and with my free will I freely now choose to disregard these thoughts.

Oh and to post from the Catechism

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a3.htm#1731

And I choose to freely wish you a wonderful day today

Oh oh…THREE acts of free will on only one post!..freely chosen

I understand your definition but what do you think about my argument?

 

[Bahman]

You’re not presenting an argument here. You’re just redefining words.

The verb ‘to decide’ means to choose.
If a person has no free will control over their ‘choice’ we already have language to describe that situation - it’s called compulsion.

These are two opposite categories.
Optional. Compulsory.
Intentional. Unintentional.
Deliberate. Accidental.

All you are doing is stating what we already know - that a lack of ability to choose isn’t free will.

But FREE will is free isn’t it?

I agree with you that if I have no choice but to do “A” then I haven’t freely chosen “A”
But you surely agree that there can be instances where I have the ability to freely choose
A, B, C, D, E… And that the sheer availability of ‘menu options’ implies the existence of choice.

Ask yourself what happens to the rule of law if the criminal can claim that they had no freedom to choose between legal and illegal action.

What I am claiming is if we know what free will is then we can know what is the decision of the person given the income. This however means that the decision of a person can be expressed as a function and this is contrary to concept of free will.

 

[Lion_IRC]

Sorry Bahman.
No disrespect but I simply cant understand what you are saying.

…if we know what free will is then we can know what is the decision

…the decision of the person given the income.

…the decision of a person can be expressed as a function

…contrary to concept of free will.

 

[Lion_IRC]

…if we know what free will is then we can know what is the decision

…the decision of the person given the income.

…the decision of a person can be expressed as a function

…contrary to concept of free will.

 

[Bahman]

Sorry Bahman.
No disrespect but I simply cant understand what you are saying.

No problem. With pleasure.

…if we know what free will is then we can know what is the decision

If we know something then we know how it function. In the case of free will, if we know free will then we know our decision because we know how free will works.

…the decision of the person given the income.

(name removed by moderator)ut is basically a requirement for decision. If we know free will, we know how it function, meaning that given (name removed by moderator)ut we can know the output which is decision.

…the decision of a person can be expressed as a function

If we know free will, we can in principle know the decision of the person given (name removed by moderator)ut and knowing the person.

…contrary to concept of free will.

If we know the person and free will then we can know his/her decision which means that the person is not free because everything he does is the result of a function.

 

[seagal]

(name removed by moderator)ut is basically a requirement for decision. If we know free will, we know how it function, meaning that given (name removed by moderator)ut we can know the output which is decision.

If we know free will, we can in principle know the decision of the person given (name removed by moderator)ut and knowing the person.

If we know the person and free will then we can know his/her decision which means that the person is not free because everything he does is the result of a function.

Knowing how a person will act does not mean that person is not free to act, even if that person does exactly what you think they will.

You seem to think we’re all like rats in a maze. Given the right circumstances a scientist can get the rat to go and do exactly what the scientist predicts. That’s called conditioning. People can and do make predictable choices. That is after all how insurance companies get their actuary charts. But, and this is important to grasp, at any given time a person can do the utterly unexpected. They can think a little deeper, they can make different choices because they want a different outcome, they can choose not to react to circumstances the same way they did before. This is what puts us higher than the animals, the fact that we are not tied to mere stimuli.

 

[Bahman]

Knowing how a person will act does not mean that person is not free to act, even if that person does exactly what you think they will.

Free will exactly means that we cannot possibly know the decision otherwise we are machines.

You seem to think we’re all like rats in a maze. Given the right circumstances a scientist can get the rat to go and do exactly what the scientist predicts. That’s called conditioning. People can and do make predictable choices. That is after all how insurance companies get their actuary charts. But, and this is important to grasp, at any given time a person can do the utterly unexpected. They can think a little deeper, they can make different choices because they want a different outcome, they can choose not to react to circumstances the same way they did before. This is what puts us higher than the animals, the fact that we are not tied to mere stimuli.

If free will is not real then we are exactly like mouses in the maze.

 

[LethalMouse]

Free will exactly means that we cannot possibly know the decision otherwise we are machines.

This is exaclty why the greatest of conditioning and psychological profiling can never be more than 99% accurate. No matter how solid the predictions someone somewhere will defy it. We can study psychology and prove X always equals Y in regards to the actions of free will. But one X somewhere will do the unthinkable… always happens. It is why even the best parameters for dating doesn’t always work even if it almost perfect…

If free will is not real then we are exactly like mouses in the maze.

As I already stated at some point some mouse somewhere will prove the greatest maze wrong…

 

[seagal]

Free will exactly means that we cannot possibly know the decision otherwise we are machines.

I dispute that statement. I repeat, knowing how a person will act does not mean the person is not free to act. You obviously don’t agree so we are at an impasse.

If free will is not real then we are exactly like mouses in the maze.

I agree, but I don’t believe we are like mice in a maze.