We Catholics Are Dead Sure The Church Is The One Church Of Christ And That All Others Are Mistaken

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Peter29 said:
My responses may be frustrating, but I don’t see why such tracing back to St Peter gives someone more authority to interpret scripture. Are catholics blessed by God to understand scripture better because they can trace their church back to St Peter?
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Yes, the Catholic Church has the only authority to interpret scripture why? because Jesus gave the Church that authority personally----“And I say also unto thee Simon that thou art Peter, and upon this Rock I will build my Chuch…” .

Thats it. That is the bottom line —Catholics can document that the Church today has that same mandate that Jesus gave to Peter. I guess you either believe or you don’t.
Remember, there was no New Testament until the Catholic Church assembled and agreed upon the contents. No bible that exists today with the primacy of the Church.
 
Hesychios said:
What you are stating here does not make a whole bunch of sense.
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hope i am not repeating…

it makes sense because the Church considers those who accept Christ and the Bible as being membersof the Church, just not perfectly or completely…

they are missing out (big time) but not necessarily unsaved…
 
Peter29 said:
I don’t like the extra-scriptual views the Catholic church has ie the infallibility of the Pope. Even the neccessity of the Pope.
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nothing the Church teaches is extra-biblical… or very few things… and nothing the Church teaches is EVER in conflict w/ Scirpture… even if it is not found explicitly in Scirtprue…

You just dont know where to find, say, Purgatory, in the Bible… (1 Cor 3:13, St Mt 18:23 ?], Maccabees 12:44…) or Mary 's perpetual virginity (St Lk 1)

i believe all non-Catholics should take an RCIA class to learn Catholicism… whether they intend to join the Church or not… Eveyrone should know what the original Church teaches…REALLY teaches… and they definitely should NOT learn from someone who is non-Catholic or worse: ex-Catholic… :rolleyes:

(one who once was Catholic but…got bitter… and never really knew the faith as well as s/he all too often pretends to nonetheless…) 😃
 
greggy53 said:
Yes, the Catholic Church has the only authority to interpret scripture why? because Jesus gave the Church that authority personally----“And I say also unto thee Simon that thou art Peter, and upon this Rock I will build my Chuch…” .

Thats it. That is the bottom line —Catholics can document that the Church today has that same mandate that Jesus gave to Peter. I guess you either believe or you don’t.
Remember, there was no New Testament until the Catholic Church assembled and agreed upon the contents. No bible that exists today with the primacy of the Church.
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Ok. But that quote isn’t explicit at all. It says nothing about the leaders of the Church being infallible.
distracted said:
nothing the Church teaches is extra-biblical… or very few things… and nothing the Church teaches is EVER in conflict w/ Scirpture… even if it is not found explicitly in Scirtprue…

You just dont know where to find, say, Purgatory, in the Bible… (1 Cor 3:13, St Mt 18:23 ?], Maccabees 12:44…) or Mary 's perpetual virginity (St Lk 1)

i believe all non-Catholics should take an RCIA class to learn Catholicism… whether they intend to join the Church or not… Eveyrone should know what the original Church teaches…REALLY teaches… and they definitely should NOT learn from someone who is non-Catholic or worse: ex-Catholic… :rolleyes:

(one who once was Catholic but…got bitter… and never really knew the faith as well as s/he all too often pretends to nonetheless…) 😃
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What about the immaculate conception?

Why does reconciliation require a priest? What’s wrong with apologizing to God directly?
 
Peter29 said:
Ok if I accept that, what is to convince me that the current church leaders have more authority over interpretation of scripture than any other christian?

Thanks
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they have far more knowledge of scripture/ Church history / languages, etc…

priests have to study for 8 yrs before entering the priesthood…

also the Real Presence of Christ abides in the Catholic Church in perpetuity… (st Mt 28:20, etc)
 
distracted said:
they have far more knowledge of scripture/ Church history / languages, etc…

priests have to study for 8 yrs before entering the priesthood…

also the Real Presence of Christ abides in the Catholic Church in perpetuity… (st Mt 28:20, etc)
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’ 16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”’

It doesn’t seem obvious to me that Jesus is talking about existing within the church. It seems more that Jesus is saying to always have faith in God.
 
Peter29 said:
Ok. But that quote isn’t explicit at all. It says nothing about the leaders of the Church being infallible.
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Infallibility is a much misunderstood, and maligned concept. It is an extention of “Whatsoever you bind on earth” The Pope is infalllible only when he speaks on matters of Faith and Morals. He is not perfect, and has the same sunful nature that you and I have.
Peter29 said:
What about the immaculate conception?
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“Hail Mary full of Grace the Lord is with thee”
The Church maintains that Mary was born without the stain of mortal sin. The scriptural evidence is there.
Peter29 said:
Why does reconciliation require a priest? What’s wrong with apologizing to God directly?
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“Jesus breathed on the disciples and said receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you forgive they are forgiven.” Catholic Priests thru Apostolic succession have the same authority.
 
JonNC said:
Now, that’s just cold!! :mad: 😃

Actually, the reason is Protestants tend to be math challenged. That why we reduced the number of books in the Bible. 😛 😛

Jon
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whoa… some humility for a change… (meaning: I don’t often see Protestants admitting to such things…)

🙂
 
Peter29 said:
My responses may be frustrating, but I don’t see why such tracing back to St Peter gives someone more authority to interpret scripture. Are catholics blessed by God to understand scripture better because they can trace their church back to St Peter?
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not all Catholics… just the ones who attend Mass as often as possible… and/or study the Scirptures… and/or are priests…

those who just warm a pew on Sunday… Word goes in one ear and out the other…

no…
 
JonNC said:
Goodness, so negative. Our synod doesn’t ordain women.
Abortion: www.lutheransforlife.org

Really? then why did motstraumen tell me Lutherans do? He said his wife is a pastor. Let me guess, you guys are not from the same church?

I stand corrected. Poor choice of words.
**
We all make mistakes.** 👍

My website? It is the US Council of Catholic Bishop’s website. It is your website!! 😛

What i meant is the website you provided! This time it’s my turn to admit my mistake of using incorrect words.

And we’re back to where we started. Had the leaders of mother church acted properly, it would not have happened in the first place. I pray our leaders will dialogue better than you and me. 😊

Indeed we are, If people knew their faith properly they wouldn’t have allowed leaders of the church to affect their faith. 😉
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O.S.Luke said:
Using that tiresome, bull-pucky figure of 30,000 and then saying you’re not trying to win? I think that needs some rethinking, Louie.

Using hyperbole in an argument is not honest apologetics.
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Why is it tiresome? because you have no defence agaist it? Yes OK i agree maybe it needs rethinking. The number is probably around the 15,000 mark… the point is, how can you say that you have the full truth of the faith when there are many different denominations teaching differently?

I think that is very honest apologetics. 👍
 
Louie1983 said:
motstraumen;5330157:
Women’s ordination - it’s being debated because there are those who cannot accept the fact the Jesus intended the priesthood to be be for man alone, not for women. I gave numerous quotes from the bible supporting this in an earlier response but you brushed it aside with a simple and unconvincing response “i don’t agree with you”. People will always debate this issue along with homosexuality, abortion, contraception etc but it won’t do anything because the catholic church has and always will stay true to it’s teachings - as Jesus promised “and the gates of hell will not prevail against it”. Something the Lutheran church cannot say unfortunately.

Actually the response that is truly getting old in which yourself and Jon have kept using is the whole “other catholics are debating it” or “there have been many catholic theolgians who agree with it”. That proves nothing, John paul II said himself that the catholic church does not have the authority to change this because it is holy tradition given to us by Jesus, pope Benedict recently confirmed this also! You don’t get much more clearer then a teaching then that!

Ok fine, there may not be 30,000 differen denominations but the number is at least in the thousands! this is bad enough, thousands of different denominations teaching different messages and doctrines!

Purgatory - Me interpolating that into scriptures? are you serious? I’m simply confirming the 2000 year teaching of the church! If you agree with me then you disagree with 2000 years of church teaching as Luther did.

You quote canon law in your confession but you don’t quote all of it! What’s the point in having bits and pieces of the faith! tell me, where in canon law does it state that women can be ordanined? that abortion is permissable? That homosexuality is acceptable? You will find in Canon law that the true catholic church holds apostolic succession and authority, something the catholic church can prove and you cannot. Our church preaches the true message that is truth about christ and salvation, that christ founded his church and built it on st peter as his representative here on earth and that his successors hold the authority he gave to peter as the first pope!
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There was a leader in Rome before Peter! James the Just the brother (in what ever way this was, more than likely a child from Joseph’s first marriage or even cousin) was the first Bishop of the church, therefore, first Pope. I agree Peter held a special position in the scheme of the early church, and that Christ looked to him as a leader, but he also just as emphatically gave leadership to the other 10 (plus one after Judas was replaced). That is simply looking at the historical facts.
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Yes, Jon and I belong to two different branches of the Lutheran Communion,he is I believe LC-MS I am ELCA. The ELCA is in fellowship with the Lutheran World Federation. Come on now beat us up over that…!
 
distracted said:
not all Catholics… just the ones who attend Mass as often as possible… and/or study the Scirptures… and/or are priests…

those who just warm a pew on Sunday… Word goes in one ear and out the other…

no…
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You are by far the most judgemental pharisee I have ever had the pleasure to meet via forum. As we say in the Northern Reaches of the MidWest…Uff-Da (My goodness, I can’t believe it, if you aren’t from that part of the country) There is a recovery program for Pharisees by the way, he is called Jesus Christ. I can highly recommend him 🙂
 
motstraumen said:
Louie1983;5330230:
There was a leader in Rome before Peter! James the Just the brother (in what ever way this was, more than likely a child from Joseph’s first marriage or even cousin) was the first Bishop of the church, therefore, first Pope. I agree Peter held a special position in the scheme of the early church, and that Christ looked to him as a leader, but he also just as emphatically gave leadership to the other 10 (plus one after Judas was replaced). That is simply looking at the historical facts.
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That is simply messing up historical fact, Peter was the first bishop and Pope as soon as Jesus gave him the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Peter was known as the first among equals, none of the other disciples received this title, they didn;t receive the title “the rock” either. They didn’t have their name changed to demonstrate their new authority did they? This only happened to Peter.

The apostles had authority to forgive and loose sin but Jesus only chose one of them to be leader of his church here on earth. Peter.
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motstraumen said:
Yes, Jon and I belong to two different branches of the Lutheran Communion,he is I believe LC-MS I am ELCA. The ELCA is in fellowship with the Lutheran World Federation. Come on now beat us up over that…!
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No i don’t intend to “beat you up” over that, just point out how that it doesn’t make sense. Jon explained to me in a thread that his branch don’t ordain women priests but you say that your wife is a Lutheran pastor. This only proves my point even further when i explained to you that the Catholic church has not chnaged it’s teaching in 2000 years! yet you and Jon supposedly belong to the same Lutheran church but teach different doctrines??? I wonder what other differences your branches have? how can you say you have the same faith as the disciples when 1) The lutheran church can’t even agree on the same thing such as women priests with other Lutheran braches 2) On certain points such as women priests, The lutheran church is contradicting what the early church fathers, the disciples and Jesus himself taught! 3) The fact that there are more than 1 Lutheran branches that teach different doctrine! Does gGod’s law aim to confuse or to give truth?

You will never find this in the Catholic Church, all rites of catholicism such as Marounite, melkite, coptic, etc teach the exact same faith on all doctrines.

You don’t need to get frustrated, this ia ll dialogue, you may not think so but sincere and honest dialogue is discussing the faith and finding the truth. There can only be one truth and one faith of God and i will not compromise any of it (and neither will the church for that matter) for the sake of unity. I do love all christians no matter what their denomination, this is the reason why i try to give you the truth of the Catholic church!
 
motstraumen said:
You are by far the most judgemental pharisee I have ever had the pleasure to meet via forum. As we say in the Northern Reaches of the MidWest…Uff-Da (My goodness, I can’t believe it, if you aren’t from that part of the country) There is a recovery program for Pharisees by the way, he is called Jesus Christ. I can highly recommend him 🙂
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Motstaumen, my brother let’s be serious here.

Is she judging? if you saw someone not practising the lutheran faith properly would you not be disappointed and try to correct it?Would you not want to help practise the faith properly out of love for them? This is all distracted is saying here she is not judging their soul or saying they are bad people, she is saying that certain people need to practise their faith properly as this is what the biggest problem of the church is currently!

God bless.
 
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