We Catholics Are Dead Sure The Church Is The One Church Of Christ And That All Others Are Mistaken

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louie,
I,m sorry to hear that you are more obedient to bishops than you are to the word of God.
Did you actually read the passages about judging others? What do you think the Lord is telling you in his word? Are you being obedient to your Savior or a mere man?

Praying for you,
jean
Hi, Gotta small question for you if you don’t mind. Was Jesus not also Man. Was it not by the Power of the Holy SPirit he was born of the Virgin Mary and became Man.

Did God not give that Power to Man. Either Jesus Christ had that power or he did not. Either Jesus Christ was a man or he was not. So if by the Power of the Holy SPirit Jesus Christ became Man and had the Power, did God not give that Power to Man?
 
I think the thing here is Jon and I are on the same page. We see thing’s in the same way. And from the post Jon has wrote I see his views pretty much in line with the RCC.

ITs like to me in school. One day the teacher started us out with an A. We did not have to earn it, it was given freely. Well let me tell you this I worked harder to keep that A then I ever did to earn any A in my life.

My point God starts us all out with an A. Now we have to keep it, BUt he gives us all we need to keep it, we have Grace. In school terms we have the Teacher (for us the CHurch) We have books (scripture) Now all we have to do is the work. And KEEPING salvation is work. Hard work. Just like keeping the A. ITs not impossible its a struggle. But God knows what we can handle. Just like the teacher gives every student free will to keep the A or lose it. So does God. We have free will! To either follow God or not.
From a Lutheran standpoint though the free will doesn’t come until the A is presented and the Holy Spirit has done the work to give you the ability to say “yes”. The free will before will only say “no”.

Are you still saved if you whittle the grade/grace down to a D-? Or is that where purgatory acts as “detention and summer school (no air conditioning)” and gets your grade back up? (please, don’t take that the wrong way, I am actually curious!)
My next question I guess would be is the work though salvific? Does it add to the salvation (the A) that God has already given? I heard a priest last night on EWTN say that it does, and I just don’t get that. How can we add anything to the merits of Christ? Either meritorious for us or for others.🤷
 
From a Lutheran standpoint though the free will doesn’t come until the A is presented and the Holy Spirit has done the work to give you the ability to say “yes”. The free will before will only say “no”.

Are you still saved if you whittle the grade/grace down to a D-? Or is that where purgatory acts as “detention and summer school (no air conditioning)” and gets your grade back up? (please, don’t take that the wrong way, I am actually curious!)
My next question I guess would be is the work though salvific? Does it add to the salvation (the A) that God has already given? I heard a priest last night on EWTN say that it does, and I just don’t get that. How can we add anything to the merits of Christ? Either meritorious for us or for others.🤷
Actually, it is kind of pass/fail, isn’t it? 🙂
Really, to me, I understand what rinnie is saying- at some point, we must be obedient to the will and commands of Christ, if we truly have a live faith, a saving faith.
And I think Eric51 really touched on a difference we need resolve, and that is the relationship of justification and sanctification, and where works fit in. And finally, at what are differences in expression such that they are no longer church dividing?
Jon
 
From a Lutheran standpoint though the free will doesn’t come until the A is presented and the Holy Spirit has done the work to give you the ability to say “yes”. The free will before will only say “no”.

Are you still saved if you whittle the grade/grace down to a D-? Or is that where purgatory acts as “detention and summer school (no air conditioning)” and gets your grade back up? (please, don’t take that the wrong way, I am actually curious!)
My next question I guess would be is the work though salvific? Does it add to the salvation (the A) that God has already given? I heard a priest last night on EWTN say that it does, and I just don’t get that. How can we add anything to the merits of Christ? Either meritorious for us or for others.🤷
From a personal view I can’t see how. But from the Words of Jesus CHrist he says I can. He says that we will do even better things than I. No Purgatory is never a D. Purgatory means you made the grade. You Passed. But you just need to be cleansed from any remaining sin. ITs forgiven, washed away at judgement. BUt God fills you need the final cleansing. I can find you the script. If you need me too.

As far as merits its like this. I do my best all of my life and God knows my love for him. Now I have a kid who just seems to be weaker than most, and is a good kid, but seems to get on the wrong road sometimes. I go to God and ask him to please help me or help my child. God will because if I listen to God, GOd will listen to me. The good we do is like money in the bank. All the prayers I offer for others come back to me. What to do is take a minute, be real quiet and read Job. In the beginning his kids were pretty bad, but Job still loved his kids and prayed for them. Read what God tells job’s friends in the end of the story. Take you time, read it, pray on it, and then come back to me and let me know what you make of it.👍
 
Also if I may add. From a Catholic standpoint that A is given at birth. We baptise our baby’s from the get go. Mine was at l week old. So the Holy Spirit enters that baby’s soul from the beginning of life. Now once that Holy Spirit enters that body the seed is planted. Now it is for the parents to water that seed. Feed that child with education to understand Christ and all his great works.

Around 2nd grade comes communion. The child learns about the body and bread of Christ. And confession the repenting of sins.

Then around 8th grade comes Confirmation. That is what alot of Protestants see as understanding Jesus Christ and accepting him as your savior. I look at Baptism as the parents Baptism, and confirmation as the young adult baptism. Thats just my point of view there. We make the choice for our children to accept God, and at confirmation they can make that choice for themself. At confirmation they are now responsible for their self. They know what they need to know, had 8 years of school and now make the choice to live the way Gods chooses or they don’t. Many children will stay with this faith and have a faith that can and will move mountains. Other/s will walk away. I guess as my kids say it is what it is. You do you best to teach them, to love eachother and God and now they are on their own. You showed them the path, now will they follow. We can only pray. My kids are not angels, but they Do LOVE GOD. They are kind, and now that they are in their early twenty’s they are becoming human again:D I don’t even have to fight them to go to church anymore. They actually Just Go.:eek:
 
Actually, it is kind of pass/fail, isn’t it? 🙂
Really, to me, I understand what rinnie is saying- at some point, we must be obedient to the will and commands of Christ, if we truly have a live faith, a saving faith.
And I think Eric51 really touched on a difference we need resolve, and that is the relationship of justification and sanctification, and where works fit in. And finally, at what are differences in expression such that they are no longer church dividing?
Jon
True, enough. I think many in our tradition would say the time is here. Yes we must be obedient to God’s will and the commands of Christ, and we as Lutherans say that is the Holy Spirits work within us. Some think that that is negating the human being to nothing, but it is actually expressing the vivification of creation, it is fully the work of the Holy Spirit that was breathed in us in the beginning, and again is at work in us even though we are/ were dead (dust again). The Holy Spirit is working in and through us on the path of sanctification because of Christ’s meritorious act upon the cross and the work that we do cannot be added to that act because it is perfect in it self. It is a bit like buying a diamond that is “flawless or near flawless” you can add little diamonds around it all you want and to the eye it might dress the setting up a bit, but you can’t make the flawless diamond any more flawless. We do our works to God’s glory, but it doesn’t add to that glory, it may reflect it though. We can’t get or give any more than God has already given in Christ. Does that make sense?
 
Well… ok.

Pastor, One of the issues on this subject that rarely gets talked about is infused vs. imputed.
Can you help me understand the differences, and how it effects unity?
Jon
Jon,

As I understand it, infused grace completely permeates a person, sanctifying them. It involves an ontological change in the person. There is no guarantee, however, that the sanctified person cannot fall from grace and they frequently do, hence the need for the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Imputed grace is external, a declaration by God that a person is holy by virtue of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. The example often given is the apocryphal “snow-covered dungheap.” The nature of the person is not changed, but God sees them as clothed in the grace of Christ. Here, too, I suspect that one can throw off that grace. Otherwise, we would be proclaiming some version of OSAS.

That’s the quick version as I understand it. Of course, reams have been written on the subject.

As far as unity is concerned, we have to deal with the fact that the two concepts are quite different. The Catholic view is that one receives infused grace. Lutherans, generally, believe that grace is imputed. However, I can understand the case for infused grace.

Just a few thoughts.
 
Also if I may add. From a Catholic standpoint that A is given at birth. We baptise our baby’s from the get go. Mine was at l week old. So the Holy Spirit enters that baby’s soul from the beginning of life. Now once that Holy Spirit enters that body the seed is planted. Now it is for the parents to water that seed. Feed that child with education to understand Christ and all his great works.

Around 2nd grade comes communion. The child learns about the body and bread of Christ. And confession the repenting of sins.

Then around 8th grade comes Confirmation. That is what alot of Protestants see as understanding Jesus Christ and accepting him as your savior. I look at Baptism as the parents Baptism, and confirmation as the young adult baptism. Thats just my point of view there. We make the choice for our children to accept God, and at confirmation they can make that choice for themself. At confirmation they are now responsible for their self. They know what they need to know, had 8 years of school and now make the choice to live the way Gods chooses or they don’t. Many children will stay with this faith and have a faith that can and will move mountains. Other/s will walk away. I guess as my kids say it is what it is. You do you best to teach them, to love eachother and God and now they are on their own. You showed them the path, now will they follow. We can only pray. My kids are not angels, but they Do LOVE GOD. They are kind, and now that they are in their early twenty’s they are becoming human again:D I don’t even have to fight them to go to church anymore. They actually Just Go.:eek:
That is basically what we believe, but we always go back to the Holy Spirit to give the credit. We don’t need a bank account, because Christ in and of himself has lavished us with himself. We baptize as infants as a public announcement that this child, according to God’s Word, is his, washed, cleansed, and sealed with the Holy Spirit and marked with the cross forever. We as parents and sponsors (and congregation) declare that we will follow Christ’s command to teach and nurture this child. Confirmation or Affirmation of Baptism the child steps forward and says “yes” to the promises and the choice that God has already made to him/her in baptism. They agree to continue to serve God, to Love God, to reach out and love their neighbor etc. It is a choice, but it is again an action of the Holy Spirit within them to actually say ‘yes’.

My kids are not angels either, but they also love God and actually understand right from wrong once in while…they are still in the process of becoming human again,😃 Even as a Pastor I have to fight them once in while to go to church. The Sorensen kids don’t have to go every Sunday, why do I have to, Dad your so boring why do I have go and listen to you etc. But one Sunday my eldest went to a non-liturgical service with a friend. He came home and said “I didn’t feel like I had been to church.” The blessed liturgy and eucharist is something he feels he needs to give him strength for the coming week as a teenager. Sorry for the long response. I really feel we are not too far off in so many points and it is joy to read your responses. They are helpful. In Christ. Motstraumen
 
Okay Pastor Gary, I like the way your thinking. You can join the club. You can come to the Party too!:dancing:
 
That was an excellent post. However, I would like to hear more about your second and third Paragraphs. After all Paul in Galatians and Romans seems to imply an initial Justification making sancitfication possible. How do you reconcile these consepts. Also explain and contrast Cooperating with God’s grace with Faith alone.
God works with representatives: e.g., Adam was a representative of humanity, whose failure, Paul tells us in Rom 5: 12 brought sin and death into the world. Yet, God is righteous and believes in perfect justice. He had to condemn sinners. But, He is perfectly compassionate, and He used His Son to atone for man’s sin. Man had sinned, and a representative of man, who had no sin [2 Cor 5:21], would make a propitiation to God by His Passion and Death. God the Father showed He was pleased by raising Christ from the Dead.

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, Gal 3:13. Read Rom 8:1-3. By offering Himself in Sacrifice, the Father takes away the curse of the Old Covenant which required perfect adherence to its strictures. Any failure to fully comply resulted in a guilty verdict [death]. Sinful man could never measure up. It is the Law as a system that had to be replaced, Eph 2;15. In its place Christ brings the New Covenant of Grace which offers us salvation from sin and death. Read 1 John 2:2, Christ’s sacrifice provides grace to save the whole world.

However, Christ did not take on the sins of the whole world, which is the notion that the protestant heresy of Forensic Imputation is based upon.The punishment for sin is eternal damnation. Contrary to what Luther and Calvin taught, Christ did not undergo this punishment. Neither Scripture nor the ECFs taught that Christ suffered eternal punishment in hell for sin. If Christ had paid the legal price for everyone’s sin, then God would be legally bound to owe man salvation, and he would be required to bring everyone to heaven. This is necessarily so because if a debt is fully paid, there can be no further payment. God being just could not exact double payment, He could not send anyone to Hell. The words “purchase” or “ransom” do not refer to the legal payment for sin but rather to the personal price Christ paid to propitiate the Father. Once redemption is applied to the individual through the individual’s own efforts, God infuses His grace into that individual, who is then cleansed from sin.

The phrase “to be a sin for us”, 2 Cor 5:21, refer to Christ becoming man to be a sacrifice for sin. It does not refer to Christ taking sin within Himself. Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Athanasius Cyril of Alexandria, Eusebius of Caesarea, Augustine, all held this interpretation. Whereas, Luther held that Christ personified sin. About Gal 3:13he wrote, “Christ was to become the greatest thief, murderer, adulterer robber, desecrator blasphemer, there has ever been anywhere in the world…He bears all the sins of all men in His body.” WA 2, 517. This coincides with Luther’s heresy of Forsensic Imputation.

Most protestants view justification as a solitary legal act in which God designates an individual as righteous. The act once performed is never repeated. It occurs when the person accepts by faith alone, Jesus. The individual is thought of as credited with the righteousness of Christ. Protestants interpret this as meaning the individual has no righteousness within himself but only the righteousness of Christ. God credits the righteouness of Christ to the account of the individual. In reality tho, the individual is still the same sinner as before. Nothing but his legal status changes. The individual becomes justified when God declares the individual is now in a justified state. God forgives the sinner because Christ is thought to have taken the guilt and paid the penalty for the individual’s sins.

Once the above occurs, the individual is thought by the protestant to pass into another theological category, Sanctification. Sanctification is thought of as an on-going process whereby the individual starts living a holy life, refraining from sin, doing good works. It is separate from the one-time act of Justification.

Whereas, Catholics do not view justification as a one-time act. In Catholic theology, there is no meaningful difference between Justification and Sanctification. Sanctifying grace sets us apart for God and makes us holy. It is because of this holiness that the individual may become justified in God’s eyes. Important to note is that the individual is intrinsically holy because of the grace. There is no legal fiction here as in Forsenic Imputation. The grace reallym, actually, makes us holy. Read 1 Cor 6:10-11, Paul shows the inseparable and simultaneous application of justification and sanctification. These are two simultaneous events that occur when the person is baptized. For a Catholic, the two terms are interchangeable.

Have to go.

In Christ
 
Great. Now, if the Pope will be there can we have pretzels with our beer?😃
Sorry my Love but it can’t be pretzels. You have to bring Cheese. Cheese without wine:bighanky: Now think about it. I got two dreams in this world. A. To take a ride in the popemobile with the Pope.

And B. To drink the Popes wine.

Now hang with me on this one, We all believe Protestants and Catholics that Jesus did indeed turn water into Wine. Now if you believe like me that the Pope is the Peter today. Ole PAPA can change water into wine also. I want the wine my Love. That will be one last Supper we will never forget.

Everyone else, Have mercy on us, we are just kidding. We gotta have some fun once in awhile.:hug1:
 
Eric, I love you brother, but if I may. Christ did take on the sins of the world and paid for every one of them by his death. Don’t get me wrong the protestants are not wrong on that one. Because by his death and resurrection he set us free. Thats why he is the Savior of the world.

Let me dwell for a moment, I promise to be quick and to the point. He paid for every sin in that aspect nothing we can do to hold us back from God. He paid for every sin out there but one. There is only one sin thats not forgivable. Anyone wanna chime in on what that one is? I am sure we all know.

But thats the point, He paid for them all by his death, but we must do our part and repent, confess and sin no more. Thats it.

Remember only one sin can send us straight to the man with the little sharp horns. The rest can be confessed and forgiven. Jesus paid for them all!
 
Jon,

As I understand it, infused grace completely permeates a person, sanctifying them. It involves an ontological change in the person. There is no guarantee, however, that the sanctified person cannot fall from grace and they frequently do, hence the need for the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Imputed grace is external, a declaration by God that a person is holy by virtue of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. The example often given is the apocryphal “snow-covered dungheap.” The nature of the person is not changed, but God sees them as clothed in the grace of Christ. Here, too, I suspect that one can throw off that grace. Otherwise, we would be proclaiming some version of OSAS.

That’s the quick version as I understand it. Of course, reams have been written on the subject.

As far as unity is concerned, we have to deal with the fact that the two concepts are quite different. The Catholic view is that one receives infused grace. Lutherans, generally, believe that grace is imputed. However, I can understand the case for infused grace.

Just a few thoughts.
I believe that Protestant thought, at least in the Reformed school, recognizes that there is something like an infusion but not in justification. It takes place when we are born again through regeneration. At that point we are renewed in spirit and are freed from slavery to sin. We become capable of acting righteously but we are not completely righteous because we still must fight our old sin nature and we can still sin. We need imputed righteousness so that the works we do can be accepted by God as part of our sanctification during which we struggle to become more righteous. The imputed righteousness is necessary because we are still tainted and even our best works can be partially motivated by self interest and not wholly from love.
 
Eric, I love you brother, but if I may. Christ did take on the sins of the world and paid for every one of them by his death. Don’t get me wrong the protestants are not wrong on that one. Because by his death and resurrection he set us free. Thats why he is the Savior of the world.

But thats the point, He paid for them all by his death, but we must do our part and repent, confess and sin no more. Thats it.

QUOTE]

I am glad you love me. And, I am often wrong. But not here, not now. Neither are the ECFs and our Church. Protestants are very wrong on this one.

Christ **isn’t **spending an eternity in Hell. And if He is, … why then must we be good?
He would have paid for all our sin, and we need fear nothing.

In Christ.

Good nite.
 
That quote is simply heresy…

We profess that he Ascended into heaven, and is sitteth at the right hand of the Father.
 
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