We Changed the Church and Regret It

[Annabelle_Marie]

Show me where they declared it. I don’t think you will find a single one.

If you want to quote Vatican II documents how about SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM: 36. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.

**Your nostelgia comment is offensive **and shows a bias against the Mass that nutured and formed the greatest of saints.

Really and your comment above this about the NO isn’t?

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

No matter how much you try to reform and improve the N.O. you will always in the end wind up back at the TLM. The plain fact is the N.O. is a made up, man centered liturgy. The council never called for it. Once you learn more about your faith you will wind up wondering what in the world happened. You will start attending the TLM. You may not like it at first. That will change and you will find yourself being more and more attracted to the TLM. Ultimately you will find yourself wondering how we got in the mess we are in now and how long Rome will take to ultimately get back to the TLM as the ordinary form.

This!

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I like the Latin Mass, where you come to kneel at the rail,next to the altar, to receive communion in the tongue, with reverence.It is much better than to be walking around while bringing the host from your hands to the mouth, on your way to the pew.That was not the way in the last supper.
Changes should be for the better.Not for the sake of looking more modern.
Coffee and browny consecrated?If liturgy gets degraded,there would be nothing left that is special about our rites.We may as well join the next mega church where grape juice and crackers are passed around.

Really? Cause I can tell you our Mass is a WHOLE lot different then the mega church I used to go to with grape juice and crackers. It’s one of the reasons I came back to the Catholic Church. To me…it’s a whole LOT different and not at ALL like the Protestant church. And it’s not a Latin Mass, we have no alter rail, but I receive with reverence…in the hand.

That being said…I have nothing against the Latin Mass…I’m just saying that an NO Mass is so not at all like any Protestant service I’ve been to.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

And that can get misinterpreted by some as being (among other things) representative of the mystical body of Christ, or the church itself. The TLM’s formula is more to the point about what communion is all about and is more authentic in the Latin.

“Corpus Domini nostri Jesu Christi custodiat animam tuam in vitam aeternam. Amen.”

Such beautiful words. I really don’t know why they changed that.

So…help me to understand…if someone doesn’t get the Real Presence in English…and ends up in the TLM…you think they are going to understand in Latin? If they haven’t learned about the Real Presence or haven’t taken the time to understand what they are saying Amen to…what makes you think that is going to happen for that same person in Latin?

 

[thealtonroute]

Wasn’t that church being closed due to parish consolidations? Buried down toward the end of the article is the line:
Sister Mary Parks, spokeswoman for the diocese, defended the church consolidations. Although money will be saved by the church closings, that is not the main reason for consolidation, she said. “What will be saved is an enormous amount of duplication,”.
I can’t find any evidence that the parish exists today, and depending on the use the building was consigned to, it might have been completely appropriate not to leave the altar in place. In any event, the article does not strike me as a legitimate news piece, and I have a feeling that the “hard-hitting” intro, which blasts church officials by saying, “It is insisted that the 100 year old altars were ‘unnecessary duplications’,” is probably just a misunderstanding of the fact that the church itself was an unsupportable “duplication” given regional demographics, and due to be closed down.

It definitely sounds like this was not handled in a very good way, but before accusing priests of “sacrilege” it might help to learn if this was, you know, preparatory to closing down the church, and not just because the priest didn’t like icky old altars or something.

Here’s the priest who tore out that altar. Seems he had some troubles later on. But then again maybe the rabidly anti-Catholic media are out to get this poor, misunderstood priest?

dailyitem.com/0100_news/x691269444/Priest-accused-of-having-sex-with-incarcerated-rapist

 

[thealtonroute]

Really…the actions of a bad priest…that is the fruit of Vatican II? Seriously???

well the part about tearing out the altar is. He probably was only practicing what he learned in the seminary?

 

[ProVobis]

.you think they are going to understand in Latin?

I say yes. How many really understand “one in being with the Father,” for example. Isn’t the word “consubstantial” better even if you don’t understand it at first? Take the time to break it down (con (with) + sub (under) + stantis (past participle of “stare” to stand)) and perhaps you’ll understand the term; certainly better than accepting “one in being,” isn’t it? Same thing for the communion formula in Latin. Break it down for yourself and you’ll understand it better. You’re only going to get out as much as what you put into it. Latin forces you to do some work but it may be worth it if you understand and remember it better, no? They train physicists to derive formulas and equations and prove theories; they wouldn’t be much good just accepting what they’ve been told.

 

[ProVobis]

To me…it’s a whole LOT different and **not at ALL like **the Protestant church.

Well, I don’t know of too many Protestant churches that aren’t in vernacular.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I say yes. How many really understand “one in being with the Father,” for example. Isn’t the word “consubstantial” better even if you don’t understand it at first? Take the time to break it down (con (with) + sub (under) + stantis (past participle of “stare” to stand)) and perhaps you’ll understand the term; certainly better than accepting “one in being,” isn’t it? Same thing for the communion formula in Latin. Break it down for yourself and you’ll understand it better. You’re only going to get out as much as what you put into it. Latin forces you to do some work but it may be worth it if you understand and remember it better, no? They train physicists to derive formulas and equations and prove theories; they wouldn’t be much good just accepting what they’ve been told.

I’m not saying I don’t understand it. I’m just saying that I think that if people don’t believe in the Real Presence now…they are not going to get it in Latin. If they won’t do the work to understand it in English…they aren’t going to do the work to understand it in Latin.

It’s like saying the people who don’t go to Sunday Mass in the OF would suddenly always go in the EF. Seriously…if they are too lazy to make an hour out of the week…they are too lazy…that’s not going to change by only having the EF. Regardless of which Mass you prefer or I prefer, we get the Sunday obligation and will be there…and probably more. But if they don’t understand or feel obligated to set aside an hour for God…the style of Mass isn’t going to change that.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Well, I don’t know of too many Protestant churches that aren’t in vernacular.

Well…let me tell you…the NO is nothing like a Protestant mega church…those that say it is…IMHO have NEVER been to a mega church.

 

[HCC]

Well…let me tell you…the NO is nothing like a Protestant mega church…those that say it is…IMHO have NEVER been to a mega church.

Yesterday, I attempted to go to an EF Mass listed on a local website. Unfortunately, the website goofed and that Mass is no longer offered at that time. I had to attend an OF Mass to fulfill my Sunday Obligation.

When the Mass began, I was a little startled. Was I back at my Presbyterian high school chapel? (Born Catholic, but attended a Protestant HS) It just felt so weird and foreign, lacking in Catholic culture. I participated as fully as possible, but everything from the music, the preaching, the overall feel, just felt like a flat, Protestant service.

The priest interjecting his own words, personality and changing little words here and there to emphasize his own theological views was distracting. His sermon was about how he goes to the beach and gets jealous of all the muscular bodies there. I was thinking, “Are you out of your mind? With all the scandals going on-THIS is what you’re talking about?” Yes, I left uplifted because Jesus became present, but something is not right in the Modern church. (And I’m 35, living in NYC!)

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Yesterday, I attempted to go to an EF Mass listed on a local website. Unfortunately, the website goofed and that Mass is no longer offered at that time. I had to attend an OF Mass to fulfill my Sunday Obligation.

When the Mass began, I was a little startled. Was I back at my Presbyterian high school chapel? (Born Catholic, but attended a Protestant HS) It just felt so weird and foreign, lacking in Catholic culture. I participated as fully as possible, but everything from the music, the preaching, the overall feel, just felt like a flat, Protestant service.

The priest interjecting his own words, personality and changing little words here and there to emphasize his own theological views was distracting. His sermon was about how he goes to the beach and gets jealous of all the muscular bodies there. I was thinking, “Are you out of your mind? With all the scandals going on-THIS is what you’re talking about?” Yes, I left uplifted because Jesus became present, but something is not right in the Modern church. (And I’m 35, living in NYC!)

Well…sad for you. But the NO Masses I attend are nothing like that.

The Protestant church…first of all…there is no real presence…no tabernacle. The readings…what readings…

You like the EF? Fine…but why do people always have to put the NO down? I don’t get it…and it sure doesn’t make me proud to be a Catholic. Especially when the NO’s I’ve attended are reverent and nothing like you are describing.

 

[HCC]

Well…sad for you. But the NO Masses I attend are nothing like that.

The Protestant church…first of all…there is no real presence…no tabernacle. The readings…what readings…

You like the EF? Fine…but why do people always have to put the NO down? I don’t get it…and it sure doesn’t make me proud to be a Catholic. Especially when the NO’s I’ve attended are reverent and nothing like you are describing.

You’re right Annabelle Marie. I still believe there are serious problems, but bashing doesn’t help.

+God’s peace to you

 

[ProVobis]

There seems to be a growing misconception here. When one starts bashing a translation or a vernacular that is not bashing the OF. Questioning whether the English “for you and for all” deviates enough from the OF’s Latin “pro vobis and pro multis” to be legit, for example, isn’t automatically calling the (generic) OF invalid or unacceptable. We’ll let the Vatican deal with mistranslations and misunderstandings among cultures. There are a lot of false accusations being thrown around, IMO, and it doesn’t help relieve the tension any to be reading too much from the criticisms either way.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

There seems to be a growing misconception here. When one starts bashing a translation or a vernacular that is not bashing the OF. Questioning whether the English “for you and for all” deviates enough from the OF’s Latin “pro vobis and pro multis” to be legit isn’t autimatically calling the (generic) OF invalid or unacceptable. We’ll let the Vatican deal with mistranslations and misunderstandings among cultures. There are a lot of false accusations being thrown around, IMO, and it doesn’t help relieve the tension any to be reading too much from the criticisms either way.

Maybe…maybe…but usually people go FAR beyond that.

I don’t think calling the NO like a Protestant church service…especially a mega church service is really uplifting or meant to be constructive.

 

[Adeodatus]

I wonder where these reverent NO masses are actually located.

I hear this all the time. But what do I actually see?!

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I wonder where these reverent NO masses are actually located.

I hear this all the time. But what do I actually see?!

So…putting down a valid Mass…and the people who attend…does what? Promote Catholic unity?

Deciding what we want and ramroding our way to get it…seems very protestant to me…

 

[Layman]

I am a post-V2 Catholic and have never attended a Latin mass. But, I can’t help but think that we are experiencing a misplaced sense of nostalgia in wanting to “go back”. We have suffered from disobedience over the course of the last century. We are now here, moving forward, with liturgical improvements soon arriving. There is a new and more reverential tone developing in the Church. It is being reawakened. God is in charge. Let’s allow Him to lead us.

I want the TLM because it solves a lot of problems with the O.F., at one stroke. I’d say also that any school that went back to traditional teaching and methods wouldn’t be short of pupils these days, either. Nor would any priest who preached a few hellfire sermons and actually taught the harsh truths of our religion be short of a congregation, either.

God isn’t going to lead us directly. He uses men. Men make mistakes. You have to compare what you are being told with Tradition and the Bible. Clergy, Tradition and the Bible check us from veering from the Way and the Truth. Protestants have dumped two of these, and look how they fissure, now.

 

[Layman]

So…help me to understand…if someone doesn’t get the Real Presence in English…and ends up in the TLM…you think they are going to understand in Latin? If they haven’t learned about the Real Presence or haven’t taken the time to understand what they are saying Amen to…what makes you think that is going to happen for that same person in Latin?

Well, COTT, kneeling, from a priest would be a good start. Cues you that the Host is taboo. Therefore, it’s important. Also, the beautiful text (assuming your ignoramus can get and read a standard missal). Also, the priest facing away from the congregation (he’s doing something directed towards Someone Else.)

 

[HCC]

Well, COTT, kneeling, from a priest would be a good start. Cues you that the Host is taboo. Therefore, it’s important. Also, the beautiful text (assuming your ignoramus can get and read a standard missal). Also, the priest facing away from the congregation (he’s doing something directed towards Someone Else.)

One clarification…a consecrated host is not “taboo,” it is holy, it is the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ. It is a sacred gift entrusted to us by Our Lord and so we show it due reverence and protect it from abuses and try to avoid accidents.