We Changed the Church and Regret It

[Annabelle_Marie]

No, I’m not saying that the NO is not valid, just very different and almost like a Protestant service. If you go to an EF Mass you’d immediately see the BIG difference in spirituality and worship between the two.

As for our separated brethren, I ( we all ) do pray for them, but many times I’m sure they’re either deaf to, or just ignore, the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

P.S. Of all the converts to Roman Catholicism that I’ve spoken to, the majority have said that it was the spirituality of the EF Mass that first attracted them.

Welll…having been to MANY Protestant services…I would say…NOT! Sad to say…from many of the negative attitudes of people regarding he EF being the only thing around and what I perceive as a lack of charity from those same people…I have no desire to attend the EF. Which isn’t a huge problem for me as I doubt I could find one close by. I do think that is sad for those that prefer the EF. Why is it that people can’t simply prefer the EF WITHOUT bashing the NO?

PS…you’ll have to add two to the converted (or came back) to Catholism because of the reverence of the NO.

P.S.S…wasn’t it just today that the readings talk about unity in the Eucharist??? Too bad we can’t follow that example.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

And this is why we should fight to get the Tridentine Mass back and bury the Novus Ordo Mass ( it is too Protestant for my liking ). We should all support traditional religious like the FSSP ( Friendly Society of Saint Peter ) and insist on some modicum of decency in the dress for any mass ( no torn jeans with the waist down around the knees, hot pants or tank tops ). Many times I’m embarassed to bring any interested protestant friend to a NO mass.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Maybe we should post someone at the door and not allow them entry if they are not dressed right…

 

[Adeodatus]

Why is it that people can’t simply prefer the EF WITHOUT bashing the NO?

Isn’t that the whole issue in this thread? For centuries, we had the EF (the TLM, the Mass). Then a bunch of social revolutionaries stormed in and forced everyone… everyone… to have the new Mass, which was based upon their novel ideas (that does not mean it is not valid… it is valid). They took away the old Mass, they tore down the altar rails, they insisted on Communion in the hand while standing, they took out the statues of the saints, they preached that the saints never even existed, they preached that the miracles in the Scripture were mere poetic devices to exhort social justice (i.e. they were all made up), they threw away over a thousand years of musical traditions and replaced them with Protestant hymns and folk songs (many of which are heretical). They denied the Real Presence and they substited things like pizza and beer for the Eucharist.

Then, a lot of these social revolutionaries left the Church; they decided they never believed in some or all of it anyway and they wanted to go off and do their own thing, etc.

That is not my point… that is basically what the liberal lady (ex-nun) said in her blog. They took the old rite and destroyed it. And the average Catholic had no say in this. It all came from the top down… and then many of those “tops” just walked off anyway.

So for those of us who love the EF, part of what we love about it is how it does not partake in those things that we find irreverent, like the priest facing the people or Communion in the hand. And, if you’ll excuse us, we’re hurt. What we love was suppressed for 40 years. In many places, it still is suppressed. Likewise, the whole Church is in chaos: people leaving in disgust, wholesale dissent, ignorance of basic teaching, vocation shortage, etc.

Can you imagine if you lived in a country, and another country invaded? They occupied your country for 40 years, burned all your flags and outlawed your native language. Everyone now had to speak their country’s language, and use their symbols. And then, after 40 years of occupation, they eased up on you. “Well, you can speak your native language if you insist, but only in certain places.” And “Well, you can fly your country’s original flag, but only if you fly ours higher.” And so on. And then here’s the kicker: if you complain about the invader, you’ll get jumped on for being intolerant. Does that sound fair?

Myself, I’m a convert from Protestantism. Only later in my life as a Catholic, once I discovered the EF, did I realize that this was the Church I could have joined, if only it had not been thrown down. It breaks my heart.

 

[rosary_kat]

We have suffered from disobedience over the course of the last century. We are now here, moving forward, with liturgical improvements soon arriving. There is a new and more reverential tone developing in the Church. It is being reawakened. God is in charge. Let’s allow Him to lead us.

Alleluia and AMEN :clapping: :yup:

 

[rosary_kat]

…FSSP ( Friendly Society of Saint Peter )…

Eh?

 

[CradleCath]

That would just render the post nonsensical.

 

[CradleCath]

Isn’t that the whole issue in this thread? For centuries, we had the EF (the TLM, the Mass). Then a bunch of social revolutionaries stormed in and forced everyone… everyone… to have the new Mass, which was based upon their novel ideas (that does not mean it is not valid… it is valid). They took away the old Mass, they tore down the altar rails, they insisted on Communion in the hand while standing, they took out the statues of the saints, they preached that the saints never even existed, they preached that the miracles in the Scripture were mere poetic devices to exhort social justice (i.e. they were all made up), they threw away over a thousand years of musical traditions and replaced them with Protestant hymns and folk songs (many of which are heretical). They denied the Real Presence and they substited things like pizza and beer for the Eucharist.

Then, a lot of these social revolutionaries left the Church; they decided they never believed in some or all of it anyway and they wanted to go off and do their own thing, etc.

That is not my point… that is basically what the liberal lady (ex-nun) said in her blog. They took the old rite and destroyed it. And the average Catholic had no say in this. It all came from the top down… and then many of those “tops” just walked off anyway.

So for those of us who love the EF, part of what we love about it is how it does not partake in those things that we find irreverent, like the priest facing the people or Communion in the hand. And, if you’ll excuse us, we’re hurt. What we love was suppressed for 40 years. In many places, it still is suppressed. Likewise, the whole Church is in chaos: people leaving in disgust, wholesale dissent, ignorance of basic teaching, vocation shortage, etc.

Can you imagine if you lived in a country, and another country invaded? They occupied your country for 40 years, burned all your flags and outlawed your native language. Everyone now had to speak their country’s language, and use their symbols. And then, after 40 years of occupation, they eased up on you. "Well, you can speak your native language if you insist, but only in certain places." And “Well, you can fly your country’s original flag, but only if you fly ours higher.” And so on. And then here’s the kicker: if you complain about the invader, you’ll get jumped on for being intolerant. Does that sound fair?Myself, I’m a convert from Protestantism. Only later in my life as a Catholic, once I discovered the EF, did I realize that this was the Church I could have joined, if only it had not been thrown down. It breaks my heart.

And this was the Church that I was raised in. You have said it well & I do wonder if those who grew up & know only the Novus Ordo Mass could have responded as well as many of us did. For **15 years ** I tried to love the “New Mass”. After that I just endured & prayed. I really don’t think that many of our posters have any idea about the pain we felt, about the faith that kept us praying & PRAYING, about the anger we just swallowed rather than spread it around.

I think that the hardest part was the fact that I had two choices…either to bring my children up in this Church that had become very strange in my eyes, or to bring them up in another faith. That wasn’t an option for either me or my husband, so they are “children of the Novus Ordo”. They know very little about Fatima, have probably never asked for a saint’s intercession & have never lit a votive candle in front of a statue.
They attended Catholic schools & we assumed they were being taught correctly. BIG mistake.

 

[GaryTaylor]

You can’t walk twenty miles into the woods and expect the return trip to be shorter. But we are on the return trip. You can’t see it? I do.

 

[Javl]

Welll…having been to MANY Protestant services…I would say…NOT! Sad to say…from many of the negative attitudes of people regarding he EF being the only thing around and what I perceive as a lack of charity from those same people…I have no desire to attend the EF. Which isn’t a huge problem for me as I doubt I could find one close by. I do think that is sad for those that prefer the EF. Why is it that people can’t simply prefer the EF WITHOUT bashing the NO?

PS…you’ll have to add two to the converted (or came back) to Catholism because of the reverence of the NO.

P.S.S…wasn’t it just today that the readings talk about unity in the Eucharist??? Too bad we can’t follow that example.

My Dear Annabelle:

I grew up with the EF mass, a mass that was uniform no matter where you went in this wide world. It was then thrown out with the bathwater ( V II ) and the NO mass replaced it. I do not say that the NO mass is not valid, but what I do say is that it is NOT consistent wherever you go. The liturgy changes in each country ( I have traveled the world ). Celebrating priests insert or change the prayers of the mass and from their actions it seems that many priests do not believe in what they are doing.

I do attend the NO mass for the Eucharist. The EF mass is denied me and others within my diocese because the Bishop is liberal and will not allow the EF mass.

I can see your point since you seem to know only the NO mass. But, how would you feel, or act, if you grew up with the EF and then had it thrown out as archaic?
Shalom haMeshiac.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Isn’t that the whole issue in this thread? For centuries, we had the EF (the TLM, the Mass). Then a bunch of social revolutionaries stormed in and forced everyone… everyone… to have the new Mass, which was based upon their novel ideas (that does not mean it is not valid… it is valid). They took away the old Mass, they tore down the altar rails, they insisted on Communion in the hand while standing, they took out the statues of the saints, they preached that the saints never even existed, they preached that the miracles in the Scripture were mere poetic devices to exhort social justice (i.e. they were all made up), they threw away over a thousand years of musical traditions and replaced them with Protestant hymns and folk songs (many of which are heretical). They denied the Real Presence and they substited things like pizza and beer for the Eucharist.

Then, a lot of these social revolutionaries left the Church; they decided they never believed in some or all of it anyway and they wanted to go off and do their own thing, etc.

That is not my point… that is basically what the liberal lady (ex-nun) said in her blog. They took the old rite and destroyed it. And the average Catholic had no say in this. It all came from the top down… and then many of those “tops” just walked off anyway.

So for those of us who love the EF, part of what we love about it is how it does not partake in those things that we find irreverent, like the priest facing the people or Communion in the hand. And, if you’ll excuse us, we’re hurt. What we love was suppressed for 40 years. In many places, it still is suppressed. Likewise, the whole Church is in chaos: people leaving in disgust, wholesale dissent, ignorance of basic teaching, vocation shortage, etc.

Can you imagine if you lived in a country, and another country invaded? They occupied your country for 40 years, burned all your flags and outlawed your native language. Everyone now had to speak their country’s language, and use their symbols. And then, after 40 years of occupation, they eased up on you. “Well, you can speak your native language if you insist, but only in certain places.” And “Well, you can fly your country’s original flag, but only if you fly ours higher.” And so on. And then here’s the kicker: if you complain about the invader, you’ll get jumped on for being intolerant. Does that sound fair?

Myself, I’m a convert from Protestantism. Only later in my life as a Catholic, once I discovered the EF, did I realize that this was the Church I could have joined, if only it had not been thrown down. It breaks my heart.

One nun’s opinion and experience does not a whole council make. You just rip the NO apart and then say “oh but it’s a valid Mass” Seriously…pizza and beer for a Eucharist? Never have I seen ANYTHING even remotely like this…not even in my childhood. So–are you saying Holy Mother Church did not know what she was doing? That gives this nun an awful lot of credit… She obviously had more influence then the Pope?

Yes…I feel bad for those who prefer the EF and can’t find it. But I also know there are shortages of vocations. Our parish has only one priest…so I don’t know where you would find another to do the EF. Or when.

I still don’t think tearing apart the NO, even if you acknowledge that it is a valid Mass, is productive nor does it help, IMHO. I hear people just go on and on about this and that of the NO…does it make me want to see the point of view of the person who loves the EF…no. But those rare people who can talk about the beauty of the EF WITHOUT degrading the NO…those are the people who have my attention. Who make me want to see things from their point of view. To learn more. Sadly, those people are few and far between in my experience. Granted…that experience is limited.

I think the nun talked about a lot more then the EF vs. NO, did she not? Like some fundamental church teachings that she tried to change…but DIDN’t. Like birth control.

Maybe if as Catholics we stop tearing each other and the forms of Mass apart…we might see some real change.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I can top that one: the ancient formula for communion used in the Maronite Church translates as: “The Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ are given to you for the forgiveness sins, the remission of faults, and for everlasting life. Amen” (and despite certain obvious similarities, it was not a latinization).

Now, in the post-conciliar period, the Maronite formula is the same as the in the Roman Rite OF (which, of course, means that it is now a latinization.) Some clergy (including the occasional bishop) are sometimes a bit nostalgic and modify the formula to say: “The Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ are given to you for everlasting life.” Much better, but still not quite the same.

The point is, it’s not only the Latin Rite OF that’s affected. I only wish it were.

I can understand why “the remission of sins” part is taken out. Because it would confuse people to think that the Eucharist is a source of forgiveness of Sins, where it is not.

 

[pnewton]

I grew up with the EF mass, a mass that was uniform no matter where you went in this wide world.

You bring up a point I think is interesting. It is taken as a given that the greater the uniformity the greater the good. I do not know if this is an established fact. Is uniformity good? After all, the Church has multiple rites. We now have two forms in the Roman Rite. If uniformity is a good, does this mean we should not have the EF? I guess I do not see the need for uniformity to the extent that the Church once had in the Roman Rite. I would not object to it, but neither do I see it as a good.

Lest someone point out to extreme abuses, I know that there are always those who have no regard for limitations. I am referring to licit and orthodox variances.

 

[georgewithfaith]

Isn’t that the whole issue in this thread? For centuries, we had the EF (the TLM, the Mass). Then a bunch of social revolutionaries stormed in and forced everyone… everyone… to have the new Mass, which was based upon their novel ideas (that does not mean it is not valid… it is valid). They took away the old Mass, they tore down the altar rails, they insisted on Communion in the hand while standing, they took out the statues of the saints, they preached that the saints never even existed, they preached that the miracles in the Scripture were mere poetic devices to exhort social justice (i.e. they were all made up), they threw away over a thousand years of musical traditions and replaced them with Protestant hymns and folk songs (many of which are heretical). They denied the Real Presence and they substited things like pizza and beer for the Eucharist.

Then, a lot of these social revolutionaries left the Church; they decided they never believed in some or all of it anyway and they wanted to go off and do their own thing, etc.

That is not my point… that is basically what the liberal lady (ex-nun) said in her blog. They took the old rite and destroyed it. And the average Catholic had no say in this. It all came from the top down… and then many of those “tops” just walked off anyway.

So for those of us who love the EF, part of what we love about it is how it does not partake in those things that we find irreverent, like the priest facing the people or Communion in the hand. And, if you’ll excuse us, we’re hurt. What we love was suppressed for 40 years. In many places, it still is suppressed. Likewise, the whole Church is in chaos: people leaving in disgust, wholesale dissent, ignorance of basic teaching, vocation shortage, etc.

Can you imagine if you lived in a country, and another country invaded? They occupied your country for 40 years, burned all your flags and outlawed your native language. Everyone now had to speak their country’s language, and use their symbols. And then, after 40 years of occupation, they eased up on you. “Well, you can speak your native language if you insist, but only in certain places.” And “Well, you can fly your country’s original flag, but only if you fly ours higher.” And so on. And then here’s the kicker: if you complain about the invader, you’ll get jumped on for being intolerant. Does that sound fair?

Myself, I’m a convert from Protestantism. Only later in my life as a Catholic, once I discovered the EF, did I realize that this was the Church I could have joined, if only it had not been thrown down. It breaks my heart.

Good points that ring true for me. I was born the year they introduced the Novus Ordo and only recently have I discovered the treasure of the EF because it was finally made available to me. Many of the Novus Ordo supporters have not been to an EF Mass and don’t understand it.

They fail to understand the rupture caused by making the EF for all purposes disappear over these many years. I notice the grace of those who advocate a return to the EF stating that they do not want the Novus Ordo suddenly ripped away from its adherents as was done to them.

Progressives wanted change and they finally got it and how it nearly destroyed our Church. I grew up in a time of historic change in the Church, historic lows reached and loss of faith. I grew up in a cynical time where priests abuse little boys, priests and sisters dress in street clothes and leave the order. Lay people distribute communion in the hand and kneeling is discouraged. Felt on the walls, altar tables and the tabernacle shunted to the closet. Banal music with glaring guitars and everyone dressed in their worst t-shirt and jeans for Mass! Confession is now Reconciliation and is by appointment or one hour on Saturday afternoon, now just an afterthought. Preach about mercy and love and all that is nice.

Efforts to change Church teaching are in force, woe to any priest who speaks the truth about homosexual acts. He will get censured by the Bishop or transferred out of the parish!

I am grateful for Pope Benedict for allowing use of the EF Mass. I am thankful that young priests, sisters and lay people seem to long for a return to Tradition. I believe that soon it will be morning again in the Catholic Church because as we all know Jesus prevails at the end.

 

[ConstantineTG]

You bring up a point I think is interesting. It is taken as a given that the greater the uniformity the greater the good. I do not know if this is an established fact. Is uniformity good? After all, the Church has multiple rites. We now have two forms in the Roman Rite. If uniformity is a good, does this mean we should not have the EF? I guess I do not see the need for uniformity to the extent that the Church once had in the Roman Rite. I would not object to it, but neither do I see it as a good.

Lest someone point out to extreme abuses, I know that there are always those who have no regard for limitations. I am referring to licit and orthodox variances.

Not to mention that before the Tridentine Mass, there were also many different forms of the Roman Rite in the past.

It would be nice if there is one universal Rite. But that would be denying the traditions of the sui juris Churches including our own, and that is not good.

 

[Javl]

You bring up a point I think is interesting. It is taken as a given that the greater the uniformity the greater the good. I do not know if this is an established fact. Is uniformity good? After all, the Church has multiple rites. We now have two forms in the Roman Rite. If uniformity is a good, does this mean we should not have the EF? I guess I do not see the need for uniformity to the extent that the Church once had in the Roman Rite. I would not object to it, but neither do I see it as a good.

Lest someone point out to extreme abuses, I know that there are always those who have no regard for limitations. I am referring to licit and orthodox variances.

I’m saying uniformity in the sense that there were no abuses in the Liturgy, worship, etc. And yes, uniformity can be good or it can be bad, depending upon how it is instituted. As for the Roman Rite, we really have three, the Anglican use. Although it can be argued that it is an anglisized version of the EF.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[rwoehmke]

Seriously…pizza and beer for a Eucharist? Never have I seen ANYTHING even remotely like this…not even in my childhood.

Would you believe Pizza and Pepsi in a park, on a picnic table in Minneapolis Circa late 60’s?

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Annabelle Marie;7059498:

Seriously…pizza and beer for a Eucharist? Never have I seen ANYTHING even remotely like this…not even in my childhood.

Would you believe Pizza and Pepsi in a park, on a picnic table in Minneapolis Circa late 60’s?

Maybe…I wasn’t born yet…

Anything recently? More recent then 40 some years ago?

 

[ProVobis]

You bring up a point I think is interesting. It is taken as a given that the greater the uniformity the greater the good. I do not know if this is an established fact. Is uniformity good? After all, the Church has multiple rites.

pn, uniformity is good to the extent that one can recognize a Catholic liturgy when he hears one. We travel, we visit, we work, we watch old movies, we are sometimes far away from our local parish Mass. We need to know, whether it’s Greek, Italian, Mandarin, or English, that we attend a valid Catholic rite. Not always easy, trust me.

Of course, there are other benefits to uniformity as well.

 

[malphono]

Would you believe Pizza and Pepsi in a park, on a picnic table in Minneapolis Circa late 60’s?

I can top that: how about chips and Coke? In a seminary, no less. And it happened more than once. The explanation was some drivel about using “what the people eat” … :bigyikes:

 

[CradleCath]

QUOTE=malphono;7061419]I can top that: how about chips and Coke? In a seminary, no less. And it happened more than once.

And an ex-priest told me about a “Mass” he attended in which 6 women “Priests” blessed Lorna Doone cookies along with Fig Newtons. He thought it was just “wonderful”. Part of the “Mass” consisted of a man dressed as a priest, being run out of Church by these 6 women. Do I believe that this happened often? No, but I think it happened more often than those here would like to admit.

The fact that it happened at all is frightening. The type of people that will do that, will not usually pray for God’s forgiveness because they think that what they did “was for the good of a Church that was backwards & in need of refom”. Therefore it’s up to the rest of us to make amends for the desecration of many Masses.

Can you imagine Christ looking upon these sacrileges. How disappointed He must have been. How ashamed of His Church.

The explanation was some drivel about using “what the people eat” … :bigyikes:

Ahhhh yes, the bread of the “unwashed masses”:hypno:…