We could learn a lot from Muslims.

[dzheremi]

We seem to see an increase in threads with this exact topic around the start of the Roman Catholic Lent. I’ve been here almost five years now, and I can only repeat what I have said all that time whenever this topic comes up. I hope now, given my ecclesiastical affiliation, that I will not accused of proselytism, as I have been relatively consistent in offering this same point, even when I myself was still Catholic. That point is:

There are Christians among you whose fasts are to be truly commended and seen as proper models for all Christianity, should Westerners wish to regain a sense of commitment or true worship or whatever it is that they see in the fast of the Christ-deniers. These Orthodox Christian fasts are routinely ignored in favor of praising Islam and Muslims. I will never understand this, but I hope at least someone will follow either the above link, or observe the link left below in order to learn about fasting in the Christian tradition as it is still practiced among those who keep strict fasting schedules for the entire year (the Coptic Lent does not start for another month or so, but it is only the largest continuous period of many throughout the year, of 55 days total, not the 40 that Catholics would be accustomed to).

Metanoia: Hymns and Praises of the Great Fast in the Coptic tradition (an English sampling of Coptic hymns for this season, showing a taste of the approach of your Christian brothers and sisters, worshiping the Holy Trinity, one in essence. This is fasting to be learned from.)

 

[colmywaykurtz]

You could try to do this for lent, too.

I do not like this, for me it seems like it would be borderline idolatrous for us to behave in the same way concerning copies of the bible. It is not something for instance to consider more important than a human life if somebody is foolish enough to disrespect it, and while I understand that is a fringe of unpleasant people, I still think moving in that direction is bad.

Agreed. And there is much else that is (traditionally) associated with Islam that I wouldn’t touch with a ten-foot pole—executions for “blasphemy,” female clitoridectomy, “honor” killings of female family members, exhortations to jihad (however one defines “jihad”) in the name of Islam—the list goes on and on.

 

[smaneck]

Agreed. And there is much else that is (traditionally) associated with Islam that I wouldn’t touch with a ten-foot pole—executions for “blasphemy,” female clitoridectomy, “honor” killings of female family members, exhortations to jihad (however one defines “jihad”) in the name of Islam—the list goes on and on.

Female circumcision is practiced among Christians in Africa as well and Islam does not have a monopoly on honor killings either. Note the following:

tribune.com.pk/story/454614/honour-killing-couple-who-converted-to-islam-killed-by-family/

As for jihad, let’s not forget the Crusades!

 

[MartinJordan]

What does the Crusades have to do with this thread?



MJ

 

[Reuben_J]

We seem to see an increase in threads with this exact topic around the start of the Roman Catholic Lent. I’ve been here almost five years now, and I can only repeat what I have said all that time whenever this topic comes up. I hope now, given my ecclesiastical affiliation, that I will not accused of proselytism, as I have been relatively consistent in offering this same point, even when I myself was still Catholic. That point is:

There are Christians among you whose fasts are to be truly commended and seen as proper models for all Christianity, should Westerners wish to regain a sense of commitment or true worship or whatever it is that they see in the fast of the Christ-deniers. These Orthodox Christian fasts are routinely ignored in favor of praising Islam and Muslims. I will never understand this, but I hope at least someone will follow either the above link, or observe the link left below in order to learn about fasting in the Christian tradition as it is still practiced among those who keep strict fasting schedules for the entire year (the Coptic Lent does not start for another month or so, but it is only the largest continuous period of many throughout the year, of 55 days total, not the 40 that Catholics would be accustomed to).

Metanoia: Hymns and Praises of the Great Fast in the Coptic tradition (an English sampling of Coptic hymns for this season, showing a taste of the approach of your Christian brothers and sisters, worshiping the Holy Trinity, one in essence. This is fasting to be learned from.)

Thanks for the information. That’s a good (name removed by moderator)ut on fasting.

If speaking about your own belief is proselytism, then perhaps it is, maybe because this is an Islamic thread. But to me, no harm in that. Certainly that’s an informative links and it’s not like people will convert just because of it.

I think there are lots of articles and (name removed by moderator)uts on fasting even from the Catholic perspective. We can look to the saints and refer to the Church’s teaching. What is certainly missing, as all people are, sometimes, that Lent may not be taken as seriously as it should. This is by no means that Christians are poor in fasting though.

Whether it is just me, but I do notice a few friends seem to lose a couple of pounds during Lent, and you would know why. And it is just about food but there are more to it about abstinence. The Muslims are not too bad in that AFAIK except that theirs are too regimented from our point of view. Of course there is abuse, as it is everywhere. I do not believe that the feast in the breaking/starting of the fast in Muslim is a norm but rather cultural.

 

[Reuben_J]

What does the Crusades have to do with this thread?



MJ

I think we should always when possible not to side track from the topic though sometimes we do. But to introduce another topic into a thread would likely to cause the thread to derail.

 

[MartinJordan]

I think we should always when possible not to side track from the topic though sometimes we do. But to introduce another topic into a thread would likely to cause the thread to derail.

To me it is a serious side track about an event where there is severe misinformation floating around. This thread certainly doesn’t warrant such…imo.

However, the communal inference of fasting that Smaneck stated in response to me about “showing off” is a good correction to yours truly. Community cohesion is a good thing.

MJ

 

[KendraDZ1902]

When my husband and I were in college, he played rugby. There was a Muslim on the team. There was a tournament one weekend and he didn’t drink a drop of water. After one of the matches, some of us went to get some food. We came back and Ali wasn’t eating. I offered him some food and he explained that he couldn’t eat or drink. I felt horrible eating in front of him that I stopped. It has to take a very strong minded person to not eat or drink while playing in a rugby tournament!

 

[smaneck]

What does the Crusades have to do with this thread?



MJ

I was answering a post that mentioned jihad, or didn’t you read it?

 

[MartinJordan]

I was answering a post that mentioned jihad, or didn’t you read it?

Just…don’t start… Drop it.

MJ

 

[Brendan_64]

What is the point of fasting at all - if you want to do something spiritual then give some money of food to the less fortunate

The point of us fasting is to make a personal sacrifice, that causes us a degree of discomfort, in order to remember, the sacrifices Our Lord made for us. The discomfort we feel about missing our lunch each day, or giving something else up, puts into perspective the enormity of the sacrifices Our Lord made for us. To me anyway, fasting prompts me to think about this more regularly than I would normally do.

We are also required to almsgive during Lent, which will help others.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Muslims didn’t invent fasting, we don’t need to learn how to “fast” from morning to sundown and then gorge ourselves we have proper examples in the desert fathers and monks.

We also have a proper idea of how to venerate the bible through these men as well.

 

[dzheremi]

Amen. Again, why Christian people should look to non-Christians is a mystery to me. Without judgment, I would guess that there is a real disconnect between authentic Christian tradition and what is seen around the world when comparing, perhaps, what goes on in their parishes and what they perceive as the holiness or reverence found among their Muslim friends, coworkers, etc. Thus “we could learn a lot from Muslims, because look at how they do X, Y, Z”. I say no…look at how your forefathers did X, Y, Z. If you’re not doing that, then isn’t it better that you recover your own lost patrimony than to look to others outside of your religion? It is, after all, your birthright. But what Muslims do is whatever Muslims do. This ought to have nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity. We fasted, prostrated, gave alms, venerated the Holy Scriptures, and all that other stuff hundreds and hundreds of years before Muhammad ever existed. Let’s keep on doing it that way.

 

[Reuben_J]

Amen. Again, why Christian people should look to non-Christians is a mystery to me. Without judgment, I would guess that there is a real disconnect between authentic Christian tradition and what is seen around the world when comparing, perhaps, what goes on in their parishes and what they perceive as the holiness or reverence found among their Muslim friends, coworkers, etc. Thus “we could learn a lot from Muslims, because look at how they do X, Y, Z”. I say no…look at how your forefathers did X, Y, Z. If you’re not doing that, then isn’t it better that you recover your own lost patrimony than to look to others outside of your religion? It is, after all, your birthright. But what Muslims do is whatever Muslims do. This ought to have nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity. We fasted, prostrated, gave alms, venerated the Holy Scriptures, and all that other stuff hundreds and hundreds of years before Muhammad ever existed. Let’s keep on doing it that way.

I don’t believe the spirit of this thread is to look to Muslims and to learn from them about fasting. I think, dzheremi, that does not arise. It is more of a musing about how we treat Lent and Muslims way of fasting. That it could be a mirror image of us especially if you live in a country where there are many Muslims and whom you know. It could be an encouragement too if we should feel that the level enthusiasm of Muslims in fasting is better than us and for us to reflect as to why it is so, since we are exhorted to fast during Lent. Can we just treat this thread as simple comparison and plain discussion on the topic?

Sure Islam is not Christianity and even within Christianity there are many divisions that we may not have Lent exactly the same way. When we see something is good, it is only humility that we can see it as such. We don’t have to be so hostile to it; it is not a competition on who is better.

 

[johnnyjones]

With the season of Lent now upon us, and as we fast or give up something, how many of us would do as Muslims do during the month of Ramadan and give up not just food, but also water, during daylight hours? You’ve really got to admire their devotion on this.

Then there is the reverance and respect in which they treat the Qur’an. Do we treat our Bibles with anything even close to this?

On these two issue I can’t but think that Muslims have got the right approach and that we could learn from this.

Causing riots and endangering lives because a holy book was burned such as the Quran is not admirable to me. We can respect the substance of a book, but fanaticism is dangerous.

It’s hard to be a good Catholic and live exactly like our religion teaches. Islam has no greater acts.

 

[Brendan_64]

Causing riots and endangering lives because a holy book was burned such as the Quran is not admirable to me. We can respect the substance of a book, but fanaticism is dangerous.

Where have I said anything about causing riots or endangering lives?

It seems that, on here, to mention the word Muslim and suggest that there is anything decent about anything any Muslim does is seen as some sort of wish to venerate terrorism or fanatical extremism.

I think that attitude says more about those who seem to spit nails if someone should suggest Muslims ever do anything decent, says more about those people than it does about Muslims.

FFS all I said was that we could learn a lot from Muslims by the way they fast during Ramadan (and any Muslim friends I have do NOT gorge themselves at breakfast and in the evening during Ramadan) and the way they treat their copies of the Qu’ran displays great reverance and respect which is something that we can learn from. Again I am talking about ordinary Muslims (such as my Muslim friends) and not the hot-head fanatics that make up a small minority of Muslims.

When our Lord told us to love our neighbour and treat him as we would like to be treated, he didn’t qualify this by saying (“unless your neighbour is a Muslim”).

I don’t believe the spirit of this thread is to look to Muslims and to learn from them about fasting. I think, dzheremi, that does not arise. It is more of a musing about how we treat Lent and Muslims way of fasting. That it could be a mirror image of us especially if you live in a country where there are many Muslims and whom you know. It could be an encouragement too if we should feel that the level enthusiasm of Muslims in fasting is better than us and for us to reflect as to why it is so, since we are exhorted to fast during Lent.

Absolutely spot on.

We talk about how Jesus fasted for 40 days and 40 nights, and we give up eating chocolate biscuits or having sugar in our coffee. Is that not a bit tokenistic on our part?

 

[dzheremi]

Again, I’m not disagreeing with you, Reuben J, I’m trying to make the point that it is not necessary or good to look to Muslims for that “enthusiasm” or whatever you’d call it. Again, the authentic Christian tradition to approaching fasting does not look at “what am I going to give up?” as the height of commitment to the discipline. In fact, at the risk of seeming polemical (without wanting to be, of course), I would like to direct all who have this very good impulse to take their fasting more seriously to an Orthodox perspective on “giving something up for Lent” (because the Orthodox, and many Eastern Catholics with them, stick to very strict fasts without this viewpoint). Again, this is to be learned from, not the fasting nor the motivations of Christ-deniers. There is simply no good reason you can give to listen to and imitate and follow (or whatever you’d say the meaning of a thread called “We could learn a lot from Muslims” is really supposed to be) those outside of your religion, when those within it provide a better example, address your concerns more directly (as fellow Christians are aware of this “giving something up for Lent” mentality, even if they don’t have it themselves), and do all this within the bounds of proper Christian worship and mindset.

 

[Jimmygill88]

When I was training to be a nurse I lived with lots of Muslim colleagues. And yes they fat during Ramzan. But I have to say some get up. REALLY REALLY early to eat before sun up which in the UK can be quite late. And they eat handsomely after sundown. And there is no abstinence. The real sacrifices are probably found in hotter countries where the days are longer and because water is not permitted either I would find that a struggle. It’s a different take on an Abrahmic tradition. I don’t think however we have anything to learn

 

[johnnyjones]

Where have I said anything about causing riots or endangering lives?

It seems that, on here, to mention the word Muslim and suggest that there is anything decent about anything any Muslim does is seen as some sort of wish to venerate terrorism or fanatical extremism.

I think that attitude says more about those who seem to spit nails if someone should suggest Muslims ever do anything decent, says more about those people than it does about Muslims.

FFS all I said was that we could learn a lot from Muslims by the way they fast during Ramadan (and any Muslim friends I have do NOT gorge themselves at breakfast and in the evening during Ramadan) and the way they treat their copies of the Qu’ran displays great reverance and respect which is something that we can learn from. Again I am talking about ordinary Muslims (such as my Muslim friends) and not the hot-head fanatics that make up a small minority of Muslims.

When our Lord told us to love our neighbour and treat him as we would like to be treated, he didn’t qualify this by saying (“unless your neighbour is a Muslim”).


Absolutely spot on.

We talk about how Jesus fasted for 40 days and 40 nights, and we give up eating chocolate biscuits or having sugar in our coffee. Is that not a bit tokenistic on our part?

Wrong conclusion. You suggested there is a great reverence for the Quran . I simply told you the fact that the reverence is so great, that rioting and death are a part of defending it in Islamic countries. I want the bible to be special, but not rise to a dangerously revered level. Burn a Quran even in this country and watch it become major healines that can reveberate into deaths. Burn a bible, churn up a few aggravated people. Major difference.

Don’t interject your thoughts into mine. I resent your comment that it, “says more about THOSE people.” There are many positive aspects to Islam. They are on the right track with eliminating sexually revealing clothing. They pray with great devotion daily, and make a point of doing it no matter what. I used to open and close a Muslim pray room, I know . And, your right, they are a good model for how to fast.

You never said “ordinary Muslims” in your opening post which I responded to. Muslims in this country live by our governing rules. Put the US under Sharia law and find out how docile the “ordinary Muslims” are.

 

[smaneck]

Wrong conclusion. You suggested there is a great reverence for the Quran . I simply told you the fact that the reverence is so great, that rioting and death are a part of defending it in Islamic countries.

When the reference to reverence for the Qur’an was brought up I didn’t even think of rioting and killings. I thought of the way my father-in-law always washed his hands before handling the Qur’an and the way he would kiss it before putting it up. The current riots and killings in reaction to Qur’an burnings have nothing, IMO, to do with reverence for the Qur’an itself. It has to do with the anger and defensiveness Muslims feel in reaction to Western Imperialism.

Burn a Quran even in this country and watch it become major healines that can reveberate into deaths.

And whose decision is it to make Qur’an burnings into a major headline? It is not the Muslims, I can assure you. Without the headlines, they wouldn’t even know about it.