We don't need to be taught if we have the Spirit?

[Raider_Red]

I am dialoguing with someone about the authority a sufficiency of Scripture. We agree that the Word of God is supreme (our definitions of what constitutes the Word of God is different but that’s another point). I said that the Word of God that is contained within the Bible is only the Word of God if it is interpreted in the way God intended it. The quote below was his reply and I’m needing some help with this one.

"It appears our disagreement lies in your belief that God’s word must have an “infallible” interpreter. Am I right?

How would you assert that in light of “faith comes from hearing the Word of God” Rom. 10:17. Jesus said, “My sheep hear my voice and they follow me” (John 10:27). “the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him’ (1 John 2:27). “And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Cor. 2:12-14). “Open my eyes, that I may behold Wonderful things from Your law.” (Psalm 119:8).

Steven, please understand that the Word of God is spiritual nourishment for those to whom God chooses to make Himself known. No one needs to interpret it. The Holy Spirit illuminates the Word to those God enables to see."

Sincerely,

---

In reading the passages quoted, they are out of context in some cases and poorly interpreted in others (in my opinion). I would love any charitable comment or points that could be made back to him. I’m not trying to win an argument here or cram the Catholic position down his throat, but I would like with the help of the Holy Spirit to make him think about some things from a different perspective than he is used to. So help me out with one please and again only well thought out, loving answers and not sly things I could sling back at him that would be void of love. I’ve recently joined the Catholic Church after almost 30 years as an Evangelical and know that it was Catholics that discussed things patiently and out of love (Holy Spirit induced of course) that brought me close enough to the Catholic Church to see it’s beauty for myself. Any help will be appreciated. God Bless

 

[Cristian_B]

I am dialoguing with someone about the authority a sufficiency of Scripture. We agree that the Word of God is supreme (our definitions of what constitutes the Word of God is different but that’s another point). I said that the Word of God that is contained within the Bible is only the Word of God if it is interpreted in the way God intended it. The quote below was his reply and I’m needing some help with this one.

"It appears our disagreement lies in your belief that God’s word must have an “infallible” interpreter. Am I right?

How would you assert that in light of “faith comes from hearing the Word of God” Rom. 10:17. Jesus said, “My sheep hear my voice and they follow me” (John 10:27). “the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him’ (1 John 2:27). “And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Cor. 2:12-14). “Open my eyes, that I may behold Wonderful things from Your law.” (Psalm 119:8).

Steven, please understand that the Word of God is spiritual nourishment for those to whom God chooses to make Himself known. No one needs to interpret it. The Holy Spirit illuminates the Word to those God enables to see."

Sincerely,

---

In reading the passages quoted, they are out of context in some cases and poorly interpreted in others (in my opinion). I would love any charitable comment or points that could be made back to him. I’m not trying to win an argument here or cram the Catholic position down his throat, but I would like with the help of the Holy Spirit to make him think about some things from a different perspective than he is used to. So help me out with one please and again only well thought out, loving answers and not sly things I could sling back at him that would be void of love. I’ve recently joined the Catholic Church after almost 30 years as an Evangelical and know that it was Catholics that discussed things patiently and out of love (Holy Spirit induced of course) that brought me close enough to the Catholic Church to see it’s beauty for myself. Any help will be appreciated. God Bless

Well… it is true that the Spirit teaches you, but that doesn’t mean that He can’t use people tot each you. In some cases were it is absolutely necessary He may teach you without the help of other people, but He generally teaches you trough other people. Am I wrong? He surely taught trough the apostles…

 

[Raider_Red]

Cristian B,

That has always been my understanding, but this gentleman seems to imply that if we are truly filled with the Spirit we can interpret the Bible properly. I agree the Holy Spirit teaches me and open me up to everything, but I see him using others in many if not most cases to do so in my life. I was a follower of Jesus when I was 13 but wasn’t able to fully interpret the Bible. Thanks for you thoughts.

 

[momor]

Ask your friend how so many sincere Christians can have such different opinions if the same Holy Spirit is guiding them all? Following his own logic, he must eventually come to the conclusion that he alone has the truth and everyone else who disagrees has been deceived. If he is honest he has to admit the fallacy of his posotion.

I tend to think that an individual living in the times that Scripture was written would have had a much easier time understanding their meaning than we can today. Between the language difference and the difference in historical time and understanding, it becomes very difficult. A simple misunderstanding of the prevailing religious thought of the day can change the meaning of what we read.

I prefer to learn the meaning(s) from experts and let the Spirit guide me from there to greater understanding.

Garbage in, garbage out as they say.

 

[mackbrislawn]

I
"It appears our disagreement lies in your belief that God’s word must have an “infallible” interpreter. Am I right?

How would you assert that in light of “faith comes from hearing the Word of God” Rom. 10:17. Jesus said, “My sheep hear my voice and they follow me” (John 10:27). “the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him’ (1 John 2:27). “And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Cor. 2:12-14). “Open my eyes, that I may behold Wonderful things from Your law.” (Psalm 119:8).

Steven, please understand that the Word of God is spiritual nourishment for those to whom God chooses to make Himself known. No one needs to interpret it. The Holy Spirit illuminates the Word to those God enables to see."

---

First it should be noted that Scripture says faith comes from hearing the Word of God, not reading it. In other words, it means that the person who is receiving faith gets it from listening to an evangelist. He hears the word preached from one who has been sent to preach the word, imparted not by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, and from that Spirit preached word, he acquires faith. Upon this faith he is baptized, receives the anointing, and becomes a Christian.

So, those scripture quotations apply to those who are already** Christians, to those who have already received the anointing, not to those who are reading a Gideon bible in their motel room. Evangelical Protestants like to think you become a Christian by picking up a Bible and reading it and getting saved. But the Bible itself does not support that notion. Scripture warns us about non-Christians misunderstanding it. Peter tells us, “There are things in the writings of our brother Paul that are hard to understand, that the ignorant and unstable wrest to their own destruction, as they do the rest of the scriptures.” This is a serious statement. Someone ignorant of the gospel who attempts to read scripture and misunderstands it, can very easily cause his own destruction. But many Protestants think they can pick up Scripture and start reading it and understand it! In spite of Scripture’s own warning.

The writings of scripture are intended to be used by those who already have the anointing, who already have been evangelized properly by Spirit led evangelists. Those who are already part of the Church.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Acts 8:30-31

30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 And he said, “How can I, unless some one guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

 

[Raider_Red]

Thanks for the responses. I still have a couple of other questions because I know what he would say. To the last two responses, he would say that yes, someone must be instructed in the faith like the eunuch or just a non-believer in general. He would then follow up by saying but the verse in 1 John chapter two is saying that once we have the anointing we no longer need to be taught because the anointing has taken over and doing it for us. So, if we truly had the anointing and not just think we have it we should be able to understand the Word of God… no problem. While I don’t agree with this, I’m having a hard time articulating it. When it talks about the anointing teaching us all things and once we have it we no longer need anyone to teach us, what is it referring to?

 

[Raider_Red]

[No message]

 

[Aquinas29]

I would suggest that just reading or hearing is not enough. this is one reason we go to church - not only to worship, but to have our understanding of scripture broadened, deepened and shaped by the church. There is an unspoken assumption that the pastor, or the church is authorized. Protestants say they are authorized because the “spirit moves them” which is another way of saying you stick with a church because you* like* what they’re saying. The Catholic says not so fast - by what authority is the church claiming to teach others? How do they “know” the HS is at work?

 

[peary]

I am dialoguing with someone about the authority and sufficiency of Scripture. We agree that the Word of God is supreme (our definitions of what constitutes the Word of God is different but that’s another point). I said that the Word of God that is contained within the Bible is only the Word of God if it is interpreted in the way God intended it. The quote below was his reply and I’m needing some help with this one.

The Word of God that is contained in the Bible can only be the Word of God when it is interpreted the way God intended - THROUGH HIS CHURCH.

"It appears our disagreement lies in your belief that God’s word must have an “infallible” interpreter. Am I right?

The ‘infallible’ interpreter IS THE CHURCH.

How would you assert that in light of “faith comes from hearing the Word of God” Rom. 10:17. Jesus said, “My sheep hear my voice and they follow me” (John 10:27). “the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him’ (1 John 2:27). “And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Cor. 2:12-14). “Open my eyes, that I may behold Wonderful things from Your law.” (Psalm 119:8).

Steven, please understand that the Word of God is spiritual nourishment for those to whom God chooses to make Himself known. No one needs to interpret it. The Holy Spirit illuminates the Word to those God enables to see."

In reading the passages quoted, they are out of context in some cases and poorly interpreted in others (in my opinion). I would love any charitable comment or points that could be made back to him. I’m not trying to win an argument here or cram the Catholic position down his throat, but I would like with the help of the Holy Spirit to make him think about some things from a different perspective than he is used to. So help me out with one please and again only well thought out, loving answers and not sly things I could sling back at him that would be void of love. I’ve recently joined the Catholic Church after almost 30 years as an Evangelical and know that it was Catholics that discussed things patiently and out of love (Holy Spirit induced of course) that brought me close enough to the Catholic Church to see it’s beauty for myself. Any help will be appreciated. God Bless

**The Holy Spirit will NEVER, EVER lead a soul out of the Church. People who think this way are incredibly deluded. The Holy Spirit works with both reason and feeling, but not exclusively with either. **

 

[NHInsider]

Thanks for the responses. I still have a couple of other questions because I know what he would say. To the last two responses, he would say that yes, someone must be instructed in the faith like the eunuch or just a non-believer in general. He would then follow up by saying but the verse in 1 John chapter two is saying that once we have the anointing we no longer need to be taught because the anointing has taken over and doing it for us. So, if we truly had the anointing and not just think we have it we should be able to understand the Word of God… no problem. While I don’t agree with this, I’m having a hard time articulating it. When it talks about the anointing teaching us all things and once we have it we no longer need anyone to teach us, what is it referring to?

That’s not what it says . . .

1 Jn 2:18-27
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that the antichrist was coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. Thus we know this is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.

But you have the anointing that comes from the holy one, and you all have knowledge. I write to you not because you do not know the truth but because you do, and because every lie is alien to the truth.

Who is the liar? Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Whoever denies the Father and the Son, this is the antichrist. No one who denies the Son has the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.

Let what you heard from the beginning remain in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, then you will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that he made us: eternal life.

I write you these things about those who would deceive you. As for you, the anointing that you received from him remains in you, so that you do not need anyone to teach you. But his anointing teaches you about everything and is true and not false; just as it taught you, remain in him.

This is reminding people that they don’t need to be trapped by the gnostics who were teaching that they had “secret knowledge.” What the faithful have received is “all” they need, and because they have the Holy Spirit, they can ignore false teaching and remain faithful to what they have been taught, it is “all” they need, it is “true and not false” despite the assertions of the gnostics, who denied the divinity of Jesus.

Actually the pertinent passage for the “I have the Holy Spirit, I don’t need the Church” is not that reference, it’s John 14:26:

Jesus answered [Jude] and said to him, "Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words; yet the word you hear is not mine but that of the Father who sent me. "I have told you this while I am with you. The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name–he will teach you everything and remind you of all that (I) told you. "

But these words were not spoken to all His followers, they were spoken to the Eleven (after Judas had left).

 

[rdscheirer]

The Bible is wonderful if you can interpret it for yourself. We have a Bible study at our Parish for adults to teach us the Bible. We have had several seminars where Jeff Cavins a former Protestant minister now a Catholic takes us through the Bible. His knowlege of Hebrew, Latin and Greek helps to define exactly what a passage means. Also his knowlege of Jewish history and custom and his grasp of what a passage in the Bible meant and to whom it was directed.
For instance I learned from him that the mountain (hill) in Jerusalem that is the Temple Mount where the Temple of Solomon stood and is now the place where the dome of the rock sits is the exact same place where Abraham took Isaac.
The place in the Jordan where Jesus was baptised by John is the same place where the Jews crossed into the promised land.
His explaination of the Papacy is fantastic as it uses Isaiah-keys to the Kingdom.

I have read the Bible every other year since I was 18 but I have never gotten out of it what I have learned in the three years of Bible study because I didn’t know the history or the context that the particular book was written for.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Thanks for the responses. I still have a couple of other questions because I know what he would say. To the last two responses, he would say that yes, someone must be instructed in the faith like the eunuch or just a non-believer in general. He would then follow up by saying but the verse in 1 John chapter two is saying that once we have the anointing we no longer need to be taught because the anointing has taken over and doing it for us. So, if we truly had the anointing and not just think we have it we should be able to understand the Word of God… no problem. While I don’t agree with this, I’m having a hard time articulating it. When it talks about the anointing teaching us all things and once we have it we no longer need anyone to teach us, what is it referring to?

If the anointing teaches us all things and we no longer need anyone to teach us, that means we don’t need scripture either.

 

[Raider_Red]

Oooh… that is a really good point that I haven’t considered. I really appreciate the replies to my questions. I think I have more solidity in my thoughts now and how I should approach the questions I’m being asked. This forum is great and I say this to myself first that we need to help support this forum financially so that it will remain the wonderful resource that it is. This forum and website have been a blessing on multiple levels and really helped to answer many questions that led me into the Catholic Church after almost 30 years as an Evangelical.