We have free will, but it's either serve God or go to hell?

[alwayswondering]

This has always been an issue to me. God gave us free will, correct? But it’s either we love and serve him, but if we use our free will and CHOOSE not to, we go to hell. That never sounded much like free will to me. That’s like a father saying either love and obey me or I’m going to burn you with fire every day. I always hear how God is such a loving, just God is, but some things just seem so cruel. Free will doesn’t seem too free when it’s either love and serve someone, or you’ll be infinitely tortured. It just doesn’t seem right.

What do you think? Also, apologies if this was posted in the wrong section. I wasn’t sure where else to post this.

 

[puzzleannie]

Free will doesn’t seem too free when it’s either love and serve someone, or you’ll be infinitely tortured. It just doesn’t seem right.

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what about this is not free will? you choose eternal happiness with God and every desire fulfilled in union with him, or you choose eternal separation from God and rejection of every good thing he offers you. You choose. Nobody tortures you, they don’t have to, you torture yourself.

 

[babylonsfalling]

This has always been an issue to me. God gave us free will, correct? But it’s either we love and serve him, but if we use our free will and CHOOSE not to, we go to hell. That never sounded much like free will to me. That’s like a father saying either love and obey me or I’m going to burn you with fire every day. I always hear how God is such a loving, just God is, but some things just seem so cruel. Free will doesn’t seem too free when it’s either love and serve someone, or you’ll be infinitely tortured. It just doesn’t seem right.

What do you think? Also, apologies if this was posted in the wrong section. I wasn’t sure where else to post this.

Your analysis doesn’t negate free will. It just shows that the correct choice is overwhelmingly self evident. Kind of like choosing to jump into a giant firepit or walk away from it.

The correct decision is self evident but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a choice or that you don’t use free will in the process.

 

[alwayswondering]

Well it could be someone just not living a religious life, or living one in a different religion. Sometimes people are born into a religion and don’t ever know anything else. I wouldn’t necessarily say that is their fault.

I just don’t see why an omnipotent God NEEDS love from us. Why does he need our worship? Why does he send us to hell if we just didn’t serve him in our lifetime, or as I previously mentioned, were born a Muslim or a Hindu?

 

[JRKH]

This has always been an issue to me. God gave us free will, correct? But it’s either we love and serve him, but if we use our free will and CHOOSE not to, we go to hell. That never sounded much like free will to me. That’s like a father saying either love and obey me or I’m going to burn you with fire every day. I always hear how God is such a loving, just God is, but some things just seem so cruel. Free will doesn’t seem too free when it’s either love and serve someone, or you’ll be infinitely tortured. It just doesn’t seem right.

What do you think? Also, apologies if this was posted in the wrong section. I wasn’t sure where else to post this.

Yours is a rather common concern that every Christian must address.

Consider though that in our natural lives a free society there are consequences to our choices. The society establishes rules. Act against those rules and there are consequences…Go to prison for instance. No one wants to put people in prison, and people are not put in prison who have not freely chosen to go there.

There is, among Christian groups, some discussion about the nature of hell, whether it really is fire, and also about whether “forever” really means forever (universalism). These I cannot answer.

But for the Christian who seek God, we need only know that we are to Love. Love God and Love each other. Believe our Loving God is just and let the rest of it in His hands.

Peace
James

 

[Dorothy]

Well it could be someone just not living a religious life, or living one in a different religion. Sometimes people are born into a religion and don’t ever know anything else. I wouldn’t necessarily say that is their fault.

I just don’t see why an omnipotent God NEEDS love from us. Why does he need our worship? Why does he send us to hell if we just didn’t serve him in our lifetime, or as I previously mentioned, were born a Muslim or a Hindu?

Whatever religion one is, the Lord judges them according to the light that they did have, and how they used it. That is in the Catechism.

God is totally fair and just. If we choose what is not of God, then we are choosing hell.

 

[philial]

It’s always good to remenber that whatever free will we may possess will not be absolute, but merely relative. Let’s remember that the really big things in life have been chosen for us - our gender, our race, our place of birth, our upbringing, and so on, have all been pre-determined.So we have only limited experience of free will.

Also, the idea that God sends us to hell is a bit cold & hard, and incompatible with a loving father. It tends to reside only with scriptural llteralists, and the psycologically twisted who seem to enjoy the idea of eternal fire ( for other than themselves, no doubt).

We can choose God, or we can choose ourselves. If we chose the latter we are choosing to withdraw ourselves from God, from the light and reason for existence - and that is HELL! If we choose God we are drawn to completeness in Him - which we call Heaven.

Of course, choice has to be made in full understanding and full appreciation of one’s actions. I’m not sure how many choose to hate or go against God. Many go against certain concepts of God, but few, I suspect, are really rejecting the actuality of God (would that be possible?).

Even within this forum I am constantly surprized by the numbers of people who declared certain thoughts, words & deeds as ‘mortal sins’ as if they were handing out sweeties at a child’s party. It is possible, even when sliding into sin through sheer bloody weakness, to still have thoughts and minds directed, albeit in anguish, towards God.

 

[Julian0404]

Your making your decision “as if” GOD was purely human and therefore subject to the rules and laws that HE creaed to govern humanity.

It is a common error to “look” at and “judge” and “analyze” GOD and HIS actions, rules, etc. purely from the experience of our humanity and therefore determine that GOD is not making the cut.

One of the most difficult aspects of “faith” is to walk without seeing. In a purely human experience, this is absurd because we will absolutely take a fall and get hurt. GOD for HIS part teaches us 100;s of times in the BIble “be NOT afraid”. Trust HIM.

Human understanding cannot comprehend GOD or HIS true NATURE. We are limited. We MUST trust HIM and walk in faith knowing all the while, that we do not know everything, or see everything or understand everything, but we do know that HE is good and loving and forgiving and that HE has given us the sacraments through which we can pursue HIM and love HIM.

Free will is not about “understanding”, it is about accepting, believing and living as GOD has taught us knowing that there is eternal accountabililty for our choice. And it is our choice.

Now, as a human comparison, “if” your teacher told you there would be an exam next week and gave you the answers, would you not study and practice until you got it right? It is your free will not to study, even though you know the exam is coming and will not be changed.

So GOD has given us the 10 commandments, the sacraments, the precepts of the Church,the Bible, the Saints, the CCC, etc. etc. etc. And it is our free will to study and live and pass the exam or not. As Saint Paul teaches, “to run the good race and fight the good fight”.

May GOD’s grace give you the strength to “be not afraid” and “trust in HIM”.

 

[jsaldar]

This life is temporary and is a test of your love for God. God gives free will, for you to reject or do acts according to His will. He is so loving that He forgives you when you repent and ask for His forgiveness.

Everyone’s focus should be the next life and your acts should reflect what you want for your next life (eternal life and happiness with God our creator). Keep in mind that eternity makes this life span look like peanuts.

 

[philial]

Well it could be someone just not living a religious life, or living one in a different religion. Sometimes people are born into a religion and don’t ever know anything else. I wouldn’t necessarily say that is their fault.

I just don’t see why an omnipotent God NEEDS love from us. Why does he need our worship? Why does he send us to hell if we just didn’t serve him in our lifetime, or as I previously mentioned, were born a Muslim or a Hindu?

You’re right - God doesn’t need our love. He is complete within Himself. However, He demands love from us because it reflects His nature,and draws us closer to being like Him. In a very real way, we love for our own benefit, but we do so by way of emptying ourselves of selfishness! Yes, that’s an apparent contradiction, but sort of makes sense in the context of love!

 

[RosaryFan]

This has always been an issue to me. God gave us free will, correct? But it’s either we love and serve him, but if we use our free will and CHOOSE not to, we go to hell. That never sounded much like free will to me. That’s like a father saying either love and obey me or I’m going to burn you with fire every day. I always hear how God is such a loving, just God is, but some things just seem so cruel. Free will doesn’t seem too free when it’s either love and serve someone, or you’ll be infinitely tortured. It just doesn’t seem right.

What do you think? Also, apologies if this was posted in the wrong section. I wasn’t sure where else to post this.

Why is that so hard to understand? We either choose good or evil. When we choose good, we are obeying God’s laws (which are natural laws made out of love for us). Otherwise, we choose evil and go against God’s will and do evil things. There is no third option. We either choose good or evil. There are only two kingdoms - the kingdom of Heaven and the kingdom of hell. Every person who ever existed is going to be a resident of one kingdom or the other. The choice is ours based on whether we choose good or evil.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Jesus would have lived by the greatest commandments when he spent his time on Earth.

Jesus loves each and every one of us as he loves himself, he died for me and for you, that our sins will be forgiven.

If we trust in the promises of Jesus, we should repent and strive to do something

Blessings

Eric

 

[Rence]

Oops double post…

 

[Rence]

Your analysis doesn’t negate free will. It just shows that the correct choice is overwhelmingly self evident. Kind of like choosing to jump into a giant firepit or walk away from it.

The correct decision is self evident but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a choice or that you don’t use free will in the process.

With all due respect your example doesn’t equate to what the OP is trying to say

Jumping into a firepit or walking away from it is not abstract; as opposed to watching everything you do, everything you say, everything you think, everything you want, etc. or else someone claims you will go to Hell years later when you die.

It makes people ask questions like: Do I need to go to confession because I have indulged in dessert tonight…should I have pushed it away and offered it up instead? I better go to confession. Or, oh look at that pretty girl! Wait! I’m sinning and will go to Hell, I better burn my eyes out with that poker. Or, I feel so guity that I have car when so many people have nothing. Should I walk 15 miles to work today and offer it up?

 

[Rence]

Why is that so hard to understand? We either choose good or evil. When we choose good, we are obeying God’s laws (which are natural laws made out of love for us). Otherwise, we choose evil and go against God’s will and do evil things. There is no third option. We either choose good or evil. There are only two kingdoms - the kingdom of Heaven and the kingdom of hell. Every person who ever existed is going to be a resident of one kingdom or the other. The choice is ours based on whether we choose good or evil.

It’s hard to understand because not everyone believes that something is “sinful” and warrants eternal damnation like others are claiming. It’s hard to understand that if you don’t follow every Catholic rule and law, especially if you don’t agree with those laws, that you will spend eternity in agony because of it.

For example, like it or not, the vast majority of people simply do not think premarital sex is wrong, yet the Church says it’s sinful, and traditional Catholics claim one will go to Hell if one indulges in premarital sex without going to confession sometime before they die. Of course it’s hard for people to understand. I can assure you, the vast majority’s pillow talk does not include: “yeah, I’m sorry, I have to go to confession now. Let’s promise to never ever do this again. Pinkie promise even!”

It’s also difficult to understand knowing people who do not agree with the Church, who are also seemingly decent people who are kind and compassionate and loving…yet they will 'Go to Hell" for breaking rules of the Church.

What is hard to understand, is another person’s perspective.

 

[JRKH]

With all due respect your example doesn’t equate to what the OP is trying to say

Jumping into a firepit or walking away from it is not abstract; as opposed to watching everything you do, everything you say, everything you think, everything you want, etc. or else someone claims you will go to Hell years later when you die.

I agree that the fire pit analogy is very - perhaps overly- simplistic. But at the same time it is on point. If a danger is present and in front of us - glaringly obvious - the choice is pretty straight forward.
But when choices are less obvious are they any different? Lets take smoking as an example. No one over the ave of 6 can really say that they have not heard of the mortal as in deadly dangers of smoking.
Yet - even having this information preached to them repeatedly parents, schools, television etc, some percentage of people will freely choose to start smoking and some percentage of these will never repent (quit) and ultimately will pay the price.

It makes people ask questions like: Do I need to go to confession because I have indulged in dessert tonight…should I have pushed it away and offered it up instead? I better go to confession. Or, oh look at that pretty girl! Wait! I’m sinning and will go to Hell, I better burn my eyes out with that poker. Or, I feel so guity that I have car when so many people have nothing. Should I walk 15 miles to work today and offer it up?

Again you are right. There are people who become so obsessed with these matters that they become scrupulous and obsessive compulsive. This is a sad thing indeed.

The problem here is with people relying too much on “rules” (Law) instead of on Love. If Love is embraced, the rest can fall into line easily. The rules make sense and are easier to follow because, one understands the Love behind them.

Peace
James

 

[Rence]

I agree that the fire pit analogy is very - perhaps overly- simplistic. But at the same time it is on point. If a danger is present and in front of us - glaringly obvious - the choice is pretty straight forward.
But when choices are less obvious are they any different? Lets take smoking as an example. No one over the ave of 6 can really say that they have not heard of the mortal as in deadly dangers of smoking.
Yet - even having this information preached to them repeatedly parents, schools, television etc, some percentage of people will freely choose to start smoking and some percentage of these will never repent (quit) and ultimately will pay the price.

Again you are right. There are people who become so obsessed with these matters that they become scrupulous and obsessive compulsive. This is a sad thing indeed.

The problem here is with people relying too much on “rules” (Law) instead of on Love. If Love is embraced, the rest can fall into line easily. The rules make sense and are easier to follow because, one understands the Love behind them.

Peace
James

There are many problems, otherwise the world would be perfect. The problem with what you say above is that the Catholic Church (or Catholics, or anybody really) tend to put conditions on Love. In other words, some would say: if you love God, then you’ll follow the rules of the Church. If you don’t follow the rules of the Church, then you can’t possibly love God - which I think it utter nonsense because: But what is love, if there are conditions on it?

In addition, breaking the rules doesn’t mean you don’t love someone (or God). This is especially true when the rules are valued differently (or not at all) by different people. It means that the rules don’t make sense to those who are breaking them. One might ask instead: Why have rules that hurt those who are coerced into following them? Is it really loving to say: you have to follow this 900 page rule book, or you’re going to Hell, oh and by the way, I love you.

 

[Dorothy]

If by following the “rules” are you talking about matters of faith and morals? For many who follow the Lord they want to trust Him implicitly in all things, and so they follow the “rules”. That can be difficult, and if they fall they have the Sacraments to give grace.

 

[Rence]

If by following the “rules” are you talking about matters of faith and morals? For many who follow the Lord they want to trust Him implicitly in all things, and so they follow the “rules”. That can be difficult, and if they fall they have the Sacraments to give grace.

With a 900-page rule book, there are many kinds of different “rules”. There are enough “rules” for people to have one or many issues with them. I really wasn’t being specific, because not everyone is the same. What is an issue for one person, just isn’t an issue at all for another person.

The fact is, Catholicism puts a whole lot more emphasis on the “rules” and is more legalistic than an emphasis on loving God, and loving others. Look at what you wrote as an example. You said, "For many who follow the Lord they want to trust Him implicitly in all things, and so they follow the “rules”. However, again, that’s still putting conditions on love so that if one doesn’t follow the “rules” then they are assumed to not love God or trust God.

 

[JRKH]

There are many problems, otherwise the world would be perfect. The problem with what you say above is that the Catholic Church (or Catholics, or anybody really) tend to put conditions on Love. In other words, some would say: if you love God, then you’ll follow the rules of the Church. If you don’t follow the rules of the Church, then you can’t possibly love God - which I think it utter nonsense because: But what is love, if there are conditions on it?

In addition, breaking the rules doesn’t mean you don’t love someone (or God). This is especially true when the rules are valued differently (or not at all) by different people. It means that the rules don’t make sense to those who are breaking them. One might ask instead: Why have rules that hurt those who are coerced into following them? Is it really loving to say: you have to follow this 900 page rule book, or you’re going to Hell, oh and by the way, I love you.

I understand your concerns and difficulty in getting your head around this but you the problem is that people look at these things from the wrong perspective. They tend to look backwards instead of forwards. By that I mean, someone looks at the “900 pages of rules” and says why would a loving God require all these rules. Looking forward begins at Love and looks to see how the “rules” stem from that love.

Consider a Parent with a new baby. They Love their Baby unconditionally. No rules, no concerns just Love. But of course the baby doesn’t stay a baby. It grows, and develops more and more capabilities (walking talking etc).
Now the parents, out of love must apply limits, rules and such in order to protect, to train and teach the child. There are also consequences attached to disobedience. The child can choose to obey the rules or buck the rules. In either case there are consequences (good or bad) to the free will choice of the child.
As the child continues to grow, things continue to change. Limits change, some rules relax or are discarded and others might be added until the child reaches adulthood.
All through this, the parents love is unconditional. The rules stem from that love. The child may not see this, but it is true. The rules stem from unconditional love.

Of course there are children who, no matter how hard a parent tries, will just not behave or learn the lessons the parent is trying to teach. Eventually, sometime after the child becomes an adult, communication is severed between parent and child. The parent grieves this loss, this failure, and is saddened by the sorrows and hardships that the child will face because of their rebellion, but there is nothing the parent can do.

The same is true in our relation with God. God Loves us. He gives us rules out of that Love. If we obey, if we learn, if we grow in spiritual maturity (holiness), then the rules, or more accurately, how we view the rules, changes. We learn through the disciplines of the rules how to grow in our Love of God and each other.

This is why I say that we need to go back to the beginning, the root, in Mt 22:36-40 where Jesus tells the disciples that All the Law and All the Prophets are based on Love of God and Love of neighbor.

Peace
James