We Must ALL Agree!!! (part 2)

[tGette]

Thank you O Most Holy Spirit!
Fill us with everything that we lack!

OK! It never hurts to begin with a short prayer!

I have been wondering when The Spirit would inspire me to begin “part 2” of my thread series…so here goes: (This is similar to “part 1”)

For all you Christians out there:
Do you think it is important that we unite under one truth, one belief, one faith?

Is knowing about what gets us saved the only important thing and these theological differences merely inconsequential?

-or-

Is uniting under ONE theological understanding also important?

Please keep this Scripture quote in your meditations when considering a response:

John 17:17-23
"Consecrate them in the truth. Your word is truth.
As you sent me into the world, so I sent them into the world.
And I consecrate myself for them, so that they also may be consecrated in truth.“I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one,I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.”

 

[bpbasilphx]

Is knowing about what gets us saved the only important thing and these theological differences merely inconsequential?

**Our faith should be in Jesus Christ, and not a theory about how He saves us.

There IS a difference between the two.**

 

[tGette]

Is knowing about what gets us saved the only important thing and these theological differences merely inconsequential?

**Our faith should be in Jesus Christ, and not a theory about how He saves us.

There IS a difference between the two.**

I think that kind of answers my question. Though, admittedly I do no quite understand your point.

My point is…every church has their “theory” as to how He saves us and they label that as their “Faith”.

Better yet…what does that mean…“our faith should be in Jesus Christ”???
And should we all have the same belief as to what it means to have faith?

Furthermore, so our ideas of why Jesus wanted us to Baptize people does not matter? Is it OK for us to be in disagreement about this subject?

 

[Peter_J]

Interesting thread. You don’t see too many that start out with The Holy Spirit is inspiring me to start this thread.

Although, now that I think about it, I suspect that is what a lot of people are thinking to themselves whenever they start a thread.

 

[tGette]

Interesting thread. You don’t see too many that start out with The Holy Spirit is inspiring me to start this thread.

Although, now that I think about it, I suspect that is what a lot of people are thinking to themselves whenever they start a thread.

I pray that you are right!
We should not brush our teeth unless inspired to do so!
Is that scrupulous? lol

 

[Peter_J]

I pray that you are right!
We should not brush our teeth unless inspired to do so!
Is that scrupulous? lol

Well, it isn’t my idea of “scrupulous”. Indeed, I don’t think I would have thought of the word “scrupulous” if you hadn’t said it.

 

[churchcamefirst]

We must all agree, but we don’t…

 

[tGette]

Thank you O Most Holy Spirit!
Fill us with everything that we lack!

OK! It never hurts to begin with a short prayer!

I have been wondering when The Spirit would inspire me to begin “part 2” of my thread series…so here goes: (This is similar to “part 1”)

For all you Christians out there:
Do you think it is important that we unite under one truth, one belief, one faith?

Is knowing about what gets us saved the only important thing and these theological differences merely inconsequential?

-or-

Is uniting under ONE theological understanding also important?

Please keep this Scripture quote in your meditations when considering a response:

John 17:17-23
"Consecrate them in the truth. Your word is truth.
As you sent me into the world, so I sent them into the world.
And I consecrate myself for them, so that they also may be consecrated in truth.“I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one,I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.”

 

[LutheranDK]

Thank you O Most Holy Spirit!
Fill us with everything that we lack!

OK! It never hurts to begin with a short prayer!

I have been wondering when The Spirit would inspire me to begin “part 2” of my thread series…so here goes: (This is similar to “part 1”)

For all you Christians out there:
Do you think it is important that we unite under one truth, one belief, one faith?

Is knowing about what gets us saved the only important thing and these theological differences merely inconsequential?

-or-

Is uniting under ONE theological understanding also important?

Please keep this Scripture quote in your meditations when considering a response:

John 17:17-23
"Consecrate them in the truth. Your word is truth.
As you sent me into the world, so I sent them into the world.
And I consecrate myself for them, so that they also may be consecrated in truth.“I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one,I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.”

Before I answer: Thank you for this thread. Threads of this kind on this forum is usually a baiting-thread, worded so that it’s nearly impossible to disagree with the author.

Now for your questions:
"Do you think it is important that we unite under one truth, one belief, one faith?

Is knowing about what gets us saved the only important thing and these theological differences merely inconsequential?"

Inconsequential? As in “unimportant”? No. Believe me: I would shout and dance with joy if all of Christendom could unite as be ONE Church VISIBLY as well as we are one invisibly. It would be a tremendous signal to the pagans and unbelievers, that the Church of Christ (and those who’ve read my other posts will know what I mean by that term!) is one united front in presenting the Gospel.

So, why don’t I join the RC-church, and encourage everyone else to do the same?
Because of the fact that I consider some of the theological differences between the various churches to be so great that union is not possible. I believe that the RC church is in error on several critical issues, and I can therefore not join it (nor do I believe that the RC church is the church Christ founded as it has been claimed time and again, but that’s a topic for another thread). Unity MUST not be bought at the expence of Truth, and that is the options I see before me.

Summa summarum: Unity is indeed important, but visible unity has never existed completely within Christendom, except for when Jesus walked the Earth, and will not exist until He returns. Unfortunately

 

[tGette]

Before I answer: Thank you for this thread. Threads of this kind on this forum is usually a baiting-thread, worded so that it’s nearly impossible to disagree with the author.

Now for your questions:
"Do you think it is important that we unite under one truth, one belief, one faith?

Is knowing about what gets us saved the only important thing and these theological differences merely inconsequential?"

Inconsequential? As in “unimportant”? No. Believe me: I would shout and dance with joy if all of Christendom could unite as be ONE Church VISIBLY as well as we are one invisibly. It would be a tremendous signal to the pagans and unbelievers, that the Church of Christ (and those who’ve read my other posts will know what I mean by that term!) is one united front in presenting the Gospel.

So, why don’t I join the RC-church, and encourage everyone else to do the same?
Because of the fact that I consider some of the theological differences between the various churches to be so great that union is not possible. I believe that the RC church is in error on several critical issues, and I can therefore not join it (nor do I believe that the RC church is the church Christ founded as it has been claimed time and again, but that’s a topic for another thread). Unity MUST not be bought at the expence of Truth, and that is the options I see before me.

Summa summarum: Unity is indeed important, but visible unity has never existed completely within Christendom, except for when Jesus walked the Earth, and will not exist until He returns. Unfortunately

Thank you for heeding my call to respond to this thread. I feel like people ignore my threads some times!

My point of the thread was not necessarily referring to the Catholic Church (though in my bias…of course that is what I mean)…but in what you call the Church Catholic.

I agree whole heartily that unity should not be bought at the expense of Truth…and when I use the word truth in this thread…I mean to do it without a presupposition as to what that “truth” is.

My intention is to see how many feel that it is actually important that we are visibly and invisibly united.

Though…can we be invisibly united if we still all adhere to different theologies?
Basically…are visible and invisible united exclusive?

 

[LutheranDK]

Though…can we be invisibly united if we still all adhere to different theologies?
Basically…are visible and invisible united exclusive?

I DID read the rest of your answer

I would, of course, not say that visible and invisible united are mutually exclusive I believe that what unites us on a fundamental level - where it actually matters, is our confession of Christ. He (or she, for that matter) who can subscribe to Apostolicum, Nicaenum and Athanasium is a Christian without shadow of doubt. And although the theological differences ARE important, I believe that anyone who can recite those creeds, and MEAN them, is a Christian, and thus part of the Church Catholic, although he/she might be in a very different church than his neighbor who has recited the exact same creeds as well…

It’s getting late - so that’s why I might not make sense

What I mean is basically that our unity is on par with what I say about our salvation (although I know that the Roman-Catholic Church probably disagrees here, I trust you can see my point :

We ARE already saved. We HAVE already passed on from death to life. But we have not yet achieved the fullness of that salvation; nor seen our new life as it shall be when Jesus returns. When He does, THEN we shall see it, and experience it.

I say the same about our unity as the Church Catholic. On the day when Jesus returns, and in Paradise, all of God’s children: Lutherans, Roman-Catholics, Eastern-Orthodox, etc, shall join hands and sing that old negro spiritual: “Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty; we’re free at last!”, to coin a phrase from Martin Luther King

And then shall our unity in Christ, hidden in this life, become visible

 

[tGette]

I DID read the rest of your answer

I would, of course, not say that visible and invisible united are mutually exclusive I believe that what unites us on a fundamental level - where it actually matters, is our confession of Christ. He (or she, for that matter) who can subscribe to Apostolicum, Nicaenum and Athanasium is a Christian without shadow of doubt. And although the theological differences ARE important, I believe that anyone who can recite those creeds, and MEAN them, is a Christian, and thus part of the Church Catholic, although he/she might be in a very different church than his neighbor who has recited the exact same creeds as well…

It’s getting late - so that’s why I might not make sense

What I mean is basically that our unity is on par with what I say about our salvation (although I know that the Roman-Catholic Church probably disagrees here, I trust you can see my point :

We ARE already saved. We HAVE already passed on from death to life. But we have not yet achieved the fullness of that salvation; nor seen our new life as it shall be when Jesus returns. When He does, THEN we shall see it, and experience it.

I say the same about our unity as the Church Catholic. On the day when Jesus returns, and in Paradise, all of God’s children: Lutherans, Roman-Catholics, Eastern-Orthodox, etc, shall join hands and sing that old negro spiritual: “Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty; we’re free at last!”, to coin a phrase from Martin Luther King

And then shall our unity in Christ, hidden in this life, become visible

Great answer!

But…in referring to the original post, your answer is ultimately that we should agree on all matters theological? When we boil it down that is!?!

 

[LutheranDK]

Great answer!

But…in referring to the original post, your answer is ultimately that we should agree on all matters theological? When we boil it down that is!?!

Let me put it like this

Is is clear that VISIBLE unity requires agreement on all theological matters. That’s why I say that visible unity can only be achieved once Jesus returns; because then there will be no more divisions within Christendom. Then, terms like “Roman-Catholic”, “Lutheran”, etc will have no meaning. We will all be ONE theologically, because we will know “even as also we are known”. There will be no more theological differences - because we will have found out who, if any, was completely right (my guess is that NO ONE will be proven right in all things), laugh about it - and praise God together through all eternity as ONE “church” (although even that term will have lost its meaning) visible.

Now, INvisible unity does not require agreement on all theological matters, precisely because it IS invisible. I have much more in common with a devout Roman-Catholic from Tanzania, or an Eastern-Orthodox from Georgia, than I have with the guy who lives next to me. Why? I share language, culture, frame of reference with my neighbor. Why do I not have much more in common with him? Because he’s an unbeliever (supposing that he is, which I don’t know.). What unites me to those two Christians from far-far away is our joint profession of faith in Jesus as the Son of God: God from God. Light from Light, etc.

Do you see my point? I really need to be hitting the sack

 

[tGette]

Let me put it like this

Is is clear that VISIBLE unity requires agreement on all theological matters. That’s why I say that visible unity can only be achieved once Jesus returns; because then there will be no more divisions within Christendom. Then, terms like “Roman-Catholic”, “Lutheran”, etc will have no meaning. We will all be ONE theologically, because we will know “even as also we are known”. There will be no more theological differences - because we will have found out who, if any, was completely right (my guess is that NO ONE will be proven right in all things), laugh about it - and praise God together through all eternity as ONE “church” (although even that term will have lost its meaning) visible.

Now, INvisible unity does not require agreement on all theological matters, precisely because it IS invisible. I have much more in common with a devout Roman-Catholic from Tanzania, or an Eastern-Orthodox from Georgia, than I have with the guy who lives next to me. Why? I share language, culture, frame of reference with my neighbor. Why do I not have much more in common with him? Because he’s an unbeliever (supposing that he is, which I don’t know.). What unites me to those two Christians from far-far away is our joint profession of faith in Jesus as the Son of God: God from God. Light from Light, etc.

Do you see my point? I really need to be hitting the sack

I get your point perfectly…and I also forget we are all conversing from different time zones! Get some rest!

My confusion is still with this invisible thing. You may share more in common with another Christian…but you do not share everything in common with them. (Forget culture…I mean theology.)

To say that you are invisibly united with a Byzantine Catholic/Easter Orthodox/Calvinist/etc. would be a loose unity at that.

I guess…I still do not see how VISIBLE and INVISIBLE are mutually exclusive.

Thanks for posting by the way!

 

[Peter_J]

Let me put it like this

Is is clear that VISIBLE unity requires agreement on all theological matters.

Actually, it is not that clear. I mean what does “all theological matters” mean? (You don’t have to answer that question; I’m just making a point.) There are some issues that once upon time were not considered “church-dividing”, but now are.

 

[tito]

Good thread, certainly right to start it with prayer and addressed to christians in general, thanks.
If the issue is Unity, may I suggest that all christians are already living in the unity of the Holy Spirit in the (Mystical) Body of Christ.
John the Baptist came preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins as they confessed their sins (Mark 1:4,5) and announcing the coming of the Messiah who was to baptize them with the Holy Spirit.
Jesus Christ baptizes every believer with the Holy Spirit when when we come to Him by the hearing of faith (Galatians 3:2,5).
In turn the Holy Spirit baptizes you into the Body of Christ, putting you in union with Christ (“in Christ”). “For by one Spirit we are all baptized into one body…” 1Cor. 12:13. Also Gal 3:27(“baptized into Christ”) and v.28 “…for ye are all one in Christ Jesus”. And Ephesians 2:22 “…for a habitation of God through the Spirit”, and Ephesians 4:3 where christians are to endeavor to keep the “Unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace”.
Therefore all christians are members of the body of Christ, in union with Him, and with ea. other so whatever the denomination may be there is spiritual unity. BUT if you are addressing visible unity in a denomination, an external quality, then the answer is no.
It is reasonable to say that the agreement need lie in the foundational doctrines of Christianity, from the Incarnation-Death-Resurrection-Ascension-Deity-Second Coming-Heaven-Hell-Sin-Atonement-Expiation-Spiritual Birth etc. there has to be agreement in these. But in the secondary doctrines, style of worship, music, liturgy schedules, fellowship, etc there is latitude for diferences that are not consequential. And God is not One of confussion so that the Holy Scriptures do not give different meanings to different denominations’ beliefs, though there are degrees of understanding (mature christians may achieve a deeper knowledge of His word).
Where the RUB lies is in defining what makes a person a christian, what being a christian really is. I understand the Bible to say that a person who looks into the Law (10 Comm.) and as in a mirror sees the reflection of a man (woman) dead in tresspasses and sins (Eph 2), deserving judjment as a law breaker(James 2:10), incapable of paying the deserving penalty for his sins (Heb 9:22), who after hearing the Good News of the Gospel message (1Cor 15:1,2,3,4.), believes that Jesus Christ satisfied the debt he could not pay by His One sacrifice at the Cross (Heb 9:26 and Heb 10:10, 12, 14, 18) and comes to fully trust and depend on Jesus as the sin bearer, that person is a christian by the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (as above). Other verses in 1 John 1:7 ("…the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin"), v.9 ("…cleanse us from all unrighteusness") and 2:2 of the same book states that HE is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. Water baptism follows.
Now you may disagree with me and the biblical exposition presented and if you do, we may both be wrong, or one wrong and the other one right but we may not both be right. And this addresses the titlte of the thread: we must all agree on the essential christian doctrines but we need not all be under the same umbrella of christianity externally in order to be in Unity.
I look forward to comments and responses done in charity as I mean mine to be taken.

 

[tGette]

Good thread, certainly right to start it with prayer and addressed to christians in general, thanks.
If the issue is Unity, may I suggest that all christians are already living in the unity of the Holy Spirit in the (Mystical) Body of Christ.
John the Baptist came preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins as they confessed their sins (Mark 1:4,5) and announcing the coming of the Messiah who was to baptize them with the Holy Spirit.
Jesus Christ baptizes every believer with the Holy Spirit when when we come to Him by the hearing of faith (Galatians 3:2,5).
In turn the Holy Spirit baptizes you into the Body of Christ, putting you in union with Christ (“in Christ”). “For by one Spirit we are all baptized into one body…” 1Cor. 12:13. Also Gal 3:27(“baptized into Christ”) and v.28 “…for ye are all one in Christ Jesus”. And Ephesians 2:22 “…for a habitation of God through the Spirit”, and Ephesians 4:3 where christians are to endeavor to keep the “Unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace”.
Therefore all christians are members of the body of Christ, in union with Him, and with ea. other so whatever the denomination may be there is spiritual unity. BUT if you are addressing visible unity in a denomination, an external quality, then the answer is no.
It is reasonable to say that the agreement need lie in the foundational doctrines of Christianity, from the Incarnation-Death-Resurrection-Ascension-Deity-Second Coming-Heaven-Hell-Sin-Atonement-Expiation-Spiritual Birth etc. there has to be agreement in these. But in the secondary doctrines, style of worship, music, liturgy schedules, fellowship, etc there is latitude for diferences that are not consequential. And God is not One of confussion so that the Holy Scriptures do not give different meanings to different denominations’ beliefs, though there are degrees of understanding (mature christians may achieve a deeper knowledge of His word).
Where the RUB lies is in defining what makes a person a christian, what being a christian really is. I understand the Bible to say that a person who looks into the Law (10 Comm.) and as in a mirror sees the reflection of a man (woman) dead in tresspasses and sins (Eph 2), deserving judjment as a law breaker(James 2:10), incapable of paying the deserving penalty for his sins (Heb 9:22), who after hearing the Good News of the Gospel message (1Cor 15:1,2,3,4.), believes that Jesus Christ satisfied the debt he could not pay by His One sacrifice at the Cross (Heb 9:26 and Heb 10:10, 12, 14, 18) and comes to fully trust and depend on Jesus as the sin bearer, that person is a christian by the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (as above). Other verses in 1 John 1:7 ("…the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin"), v.9 ("…cleanse us from all unrighteusness") and 2:2 of the same book states that HE is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. Water baptism follows.
Now you may disagree with me and the biblical exposition presented and if you do, we may both be wrong, or one wrong and the other one right but we may not both be right. And this addresses the titlte of the thread: we must all agree on the essential christian doctrines but we need not all be under the same umbrella of christianity externally in order to be in Unity.
I look forward to comments and responses done in charity as I mean mine to be taken.

That was well thought out…thank you!

I would like to discuss each point you made…but I am hoping that will come in future installments of threads. So I will not address the Biblical exposition you have presented, though like I said, I hope that will come with time. (My purpose in this whole “part 1, part 2” thing is that we need to start off small in tackling all of these Christian “issues” if we will ever come to any real unity).

I am trying to get to the nitty-gritty of my original post though.
I am not concerned right now with any specific issues for us to agree on, I am concerned with whether people feel that we actually need to believe the same things or not.

So…I am glad you believe that we must be “united” under these essential Christian doctrines…that of what you mentioned.

I will disagree, however, with what you say about us not needing to be under an external unity.

For me…the invisible and the visible of Christianity are inseparable. Actually, they cause each other to be, in a sense. They rely on each other as the brain and heart rely on each other…once separated it would cause them to die.

The invisible side of Christianity is the underlying beliefs of said essential doctrines, etc. So far, I am getting a general understanding that we all agree on this. I like what you said about us being united spiritually by the Spirit in the Mystical Body of Christ, but this is only a loose union because, like it or not, we all believe different things. For example…water baptism, communion, etc…we all believe something different about these things.

So…our invisible unity is an imperfect one.

Because of our invisible beliefs being different, they cause our external side of the faith to be expressed differently. Our lack of invisible unity causes external disunity. For example…the method people belief we should be baptized or the way Communion should be done, whether a church should have a hierarchy, whether we should even have a church building to begin with.

PeaceBeWithYou!

 

[LutheranDK]

I get your point perfectly…and I also forget we are all conversing from different time zones! Get some rest!

My confusion is still with this invisible thing. You may share more in common with another Christian…but you do not share everything in common with them. (Forget culture…I mean theology.)

To say that you are invisibly united with a Byzantine Catholic/Easter Orthodox/Calvinist/etc. would be a loose unity at that.

I guess…I still do not see how VISIBLE and INVISIBLE are mutually exclusive.

Thanks for posting by the way!

You’re very welcome It isn’t often that I have the chance to have a serious discussion inhere with no name-calling on either side, so I welcome the opportunity

I can appreciate how the view I’m presenting might be difficult to grasp, but I say it with full conviction I think what this comes down to, is the difference between visible and invisible unity, where, if I understand you correctly?, you are having trouble with having invisible unity where there is no visible. Do you think that invisible unity is semantics?

It is true that I do not agree theologically with a Roman-Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Calvinist, etc (although, if I have understood Calvinist orthodoxy right, I might have a problem in calling it actually Christian…but that’s a long-winded theological debate ) on all matters. That is why I said that we are bonded with an invisible unity, and not a visible one.

Gosh…I’m beginning to repeat myself, aren’t I?

Let’s see if I can word this correctly…the invisible unity seem very loose, but it is still a unity nonetheless. Of course I have a stronger sense of unity with fellow (confessional, not cafeteria!) Lutherans, but whenever siblings in Christ are tortured, abused and martyred for Him, my heart bleeds, and still I somehow feel a sense of pride that satan and his minions did not succeed in getting that brother or sister to renounce the Faith…and I don’t ask “But what was his view on consubstantiation, justification, etc?” My heart bleeds for those persecuted siblings in Christ which belong to the RC church. and all others who suffer for the Faith.

I rejoice when my brothers triumph, and mourn when they suffer setbacks and defeat. I would not, if I did not feel any sense of unity with them. I know full well that they do not agree with me theologically on all matters, but if they are basically Christians, then they are siblings in Christ, and we are bonded together through our older brother - Jesus himself.

Hope I managed to explain a little better how I mean “invisible unity”

 

[tGette]

Hope I managed to explain a little better how I mean “invisible unity”

Perfecto!

If I am understanding you correctly, we agree that the invisible unity is a unity, even though it is imperfect…correct? I am not considering this much in term of semantics.

I love what you said about hearing of someone’s death for Christ…that is wonderful and I agree with you whole heartily on that one! But please…do not get me started on Calvinists! lol

When I read your post I think of what Jesus said concerning others healing in His name:**

(Luke 9:49-50)**
Then John said in reply, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your name and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow in our company.” Jesus said to him, "Do not prevent him, for whoever is not against you is for you.

When it comes down to it though, those slight, and sometime not so slight, differences make our invisible unity very imperfect and very loose. This is evident by the mere fact that there are different denominations. (For example…do you consider Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons part of this unity…simply because they believe in Jesus? Or is that unrelated to our unity because they deny His Divinity as the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity?)

I think we are coming to a common ground here:
We definitely have unity, just not a complete unity.

Although, are we in agreement that it is important for this unity to be complete, consistent, and uniform? I mean, in the grand scheme of things. Especially considering the Scripture I put on my original post (John 17:17-24)

Peace be with you!

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Unity MUST not be bought at the expence of Truth, and that is the options I see before me.

Summa summarum: Unity is indeed important, but visible unity has never existed completely within Christendom, except for when Jesus walked the Earth, and will not exist until He returns. Unfortunately

Amen.

Truth trumps unity.

Only partially will there be unity, after Christendom is reduced to a minuscule remnant, and full unity will be only in Christ when He comes.

But then, I’m rather a pessimist.