We need more nuns!

[bigquests]

Sounds a lot like marriage!

One reason for the postulancy and novitiate; for minor vows before taking permanent vows. In saying this I’m not advocating living together before marriage, neither am I advocating sex outside of the sacrament of marriage.

I believe the Pallotines renew their vows every year - at the end of the year deciding whether or not they wish to continue.
(I don’t think this rescinds their vows to priesthood)

I wonder if people were allowed to take vows for a year if this would increase the numbers entering Religious Life.
I suppose it’s a bit like the military where one “signs up” for a brief period of commitment.

The Daughters of Charity founded by Vincent de Paul renew their vows each year. This is because in order for them to serve in the world they couldn’t be nuns, the only kind of women religious allowed at the time. Their habit was typical of what women wore at the time in 17th c France. This community was the largest women’s community in the world, with 40,000 sisters at one point, and has about 20,000 now.

I think that there is something in what you say about renewable vows.

 

[Gertabelle]

Religious who stay in Religious Life because there is nowhere else to go and by their ill feeling, objectionable attitude and anger make it a trial for those around them.

Newsflash – the community doesn’t have to keep anyone they think is unfit for religious life or has an inappropriate attitude, demeanor for the community.

And the five to nine years of community life that is required before a sister/nun is allowed to take final vows allows everyone involved to determine whether a woman is a good fit – this allows them to avoid the “staying because there’s nowhere else to go.” The community is never forced to keep a woman they deem unfit for their way of life.

…when I was a bit younger, I read books (on purpose) by nuns who left and were still Catholic, nuns who left and drifted toward other relgions because of bad experiences, and books by priests in different scenerios. They have a long discernment process but after a few years, it really is hard.

For goodness sake, why are you reading these books?! Are you also reading books written by the pro-abortion leaders of NARAL? Sersiously, be careful what you allow into your thoughts – these sorts of book are usually written with the intention of painting the Church in a bad light.

And yes, they do have a long time to discern. And those years of discernment are not spent separate from the community life to which they will be committing. They are living the life of community, prayer, and service of some form (if they are an active community) from their first weeks and months in religious life. There are no surprises after final vows are professed (with the exception of communities that abandoned their community lives and habits after V2).

I believe the Pallotines renew their vows every year - at the end of the year deciding whether or not they wish to continue.
(I don’t think this rescinds their vows to priesthood)

I wonder if people were allowed to take vows for a year if this would increase the numbers entering Religious Life.
I suppose it’s a bit like the military where one “signs up” for a brief period of commitment.

Honestly, if a person is not ready to make vows for life after five to nine years of living the life, they either do not have a religious vocation, or they are never going to commit to anything for life. Those who need a yearly “out” to their vocation need to walk away before they make any vows at all. I would consider that attitude to be a lack of faith, and a lack of courage – needing guarantees or needing a regular way out?

I believe Buddhist monks have this sort of arrangement, but then, they’re not Catholic, they’re Buddhists

As to increasing religious vocations by making them something less than life-long commitments kind of misses the point of what a vocation is. “Sign-ups” are for parish committees, not for a call from Almighty God for one’s life purpose and path to sanctity.

Gertie

 

[bigquests]

Newsflash – the community doesn’t have to keep anyone they think is unfit for religious life or has an inappropriate attitude, demeanor for the community.

And the five to nine years of community life that is required before a sister/nun is allowed to take final vows allows everyone involved to determine whether a woman is a good fit – this allows them to avoid the “staying because there’s nowhere else to go.” The community is never forced to keep a woman they deem unfit for their way of life.

For goodness sake, why are you reading these books?! Are you also reading books written by the pro-abortion leaders of NARAL? Sersiously, be careful what you allow into your thoughts – these sorts of book are usually written with the intention of painting the Church in a bad light.

And yes, they do have a long time to discern. And those years of discernment are not spent separate from the community life to which they will be committing. They are living the life of community, prayer, and service of some form (if they are an active community) from their first weeks and months in religious life. There are no surprises after final vows are professed (with the exception of communities that abandoned their community lives and habits after V2).

Honestly, if a person is not ready to make vows for life after five to nine years of living the life, they either do not have a religious vocation, or they are never going to commit to anything for life. Those who need a yearly “out” to their vocation need to walk away before they make any vows at all. I would consider that attitude to be a lack of faith, and a lack of courage – needing guarantees or needing a regular way out?

I believe Buddhist monks have this sort of arrangement, but then, they’re not Catholic, they’re Buddhists

As to increasing religious vocations by making them something less than life-long commitments kind of misses the point of what a vocation is. “Sign-ups” are for parish committees, not for a call from Almighty God for one’s life purpose and path to sanctity.

Gertie

The tradition of a claustral ablate has been around for centuries and is being reawakened now. The oblate lives in the monastery works and prays alongside the monks but keeps his own property and can leave or be dismissed at any time. The only thing he can’t do is vote. A number of women’s communities have temporary arrangements also

There are a number of both men’s and women’s communities that renew their permanent annual vows.

And yes, a community* is *forced to keep a member after their final vows. The member may want to take a sabbatical, ie live outside, but they too are bound by their vows, too.

 

[Sister_Helena]

Okay. Religious Communities are there and willing to help any young woman who’s courageous enough to journey this road and see if Jesus is calling them. If you are interested with serving the elderly and bringing the love of Christ to them in the autumn of their lives, check our website www.carmelitesisters.com

 

[Gertabelle]

The tradition of a claustral ablate has been around for centuries and is being reawakened now. The oblate lives in the monastery works and prays alongside the monks but keeps his own property and can leave or be dismissed at any time. The only thing he can’t do is vote. A number of women’s communities have temporary arrangements also

There are a number of both men’s and women’s communities that renew their permanent annual vows.

And yes, a community* is *forced to keep a member after their final vows. The member may want to take a sabbatical, ie live outside, but they too are bound by their vows, too.

Being a claustral oblate is not the same as being a vowed religious, and never has been. There may be claustral oblates who discern (with the community) that God is calling them to take on full religious vows (including disposing of all property and rescinding their right to leave at will) – but then they cease to be oblates and become full religious.

Renewing one’s permanent vows annually was done every year, after the community retreat, at the monastery where I was a postulant and novice. But renewing one’s perpetual vows is the same as a married couple renewing their marriage vows on their anniversary – they don’t have the option of breaking those vows on the anniversary of their profession, any more than a married couple is allowed call it quits on their marriage vows on their anniversary.

And I agree that final vows is a life-long promise by both the religious and the community. My point, however, is that the community has five to nine years before final vows are professed. A religious community is never obligated to allow someone to make final profession. In the monastery I was in, there were two sisters I knew of who were told they would not be allowed to make their solemn vows, nor renew their temporary profession.

We do need more nuns!

But dumbing down the obligations of religious life so that a few people’s presumptions that it’s just “too much to ask” is not a path to sanctity. Jesus demands our all, and without the grace of God, keeping any vows, even living a Christian life at all would be impossible.

Gertie

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

There are calls within calls - Mother Teresa of Calcutta taught geography with the Sisters of Lorreto.

St Francis started Religious life with the Benedictines (until he was close to starvation and left)

The Camaldolese move between cenobitic and hermitage.

Over the course of one’s life one often changes, perhaps it’s healthy to maintain options.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Renewing one’s permanent vows annually was done every year, after the community retreat, at the monastery where I was a postulant and novice. But renewing one’s perpetual vows is the same as a married couple renewing their marriage vows on their anniversary – they don’t have the option of breaking those vows on the anniversary of their profession, any more than a married couple is allowed call it quits on their marriage vows on their anniversary.

With the Pallotine’s it’s a different arrangement.

And I agree that final vows is a life-long promise by both the religious and the community. My point, however, is that the community has five to nine years before final vows are professed. A religious community is never obligated to allow someone to make final profession.

Never said it was - just offering up reasonable options, which have a history in some cases of working.

But dumbing down the obligations of religious life so that a few people’s presumptions that it’s just “too much to ask” is not a path to sanctity. Jesus demands our all, and without the grace of God, keeping any vows, even living a Christian life at all would be impossible.

“Dumbing down” is a bit of an exaggeration.
Flexibility may infer maturity of Faith - what a person was called to at one time, may be a temporary arrangement. Nowadays over a lifetime people can have several different types of employment - each one a realistic vocation.

 

[debraran]

Hi, Most of the books I read by ex-nuns/preists, they were still good, nice people. To live in a bubble, is not a good thing. Maybe a sister or seminarian could learn what to look for or watch out for by these books, they also show how communites have changed (for the better many times) Women were treated like children and sometimes had abusive practices, not penances but just humilation. That I think is not in existence anymore.

Even Mother Angelica wrote about good and bad things about her path to being a nun.

No one was speaking badly about the church (some out-dated practices that were silly to begin with) except one that left and joined another Christian church but that was because Catholics shunned her for leaving…another thing I can’t see happening today unless you had a very orthodox family and friends.

Even though you said some things “tongue in cheek”, you see how the first reacton to reading an ex-nuns book is that it is bad…that has to change too or some will stay when they want to leave…the stigma is there. They are still good people, just trying to acclimate and work back in the secular world.

 

[bigquests]

I know the difference between renewing perpetual vows and renewing annual vows. . The point is that there are communities who were founded to renew annual vows, such as the Daughters of Charity.

There are a variety of expressions of religious life. Associates of religious communities, a category rapidly growing in number, , ‘friends’, oblates, claustral oblates are only part of a spectrum. They are not vowed religious, it is true. But each can make his or her own contribution, and in many cases, I think that it is substantial in terms of time, talent and money. Many are married, many are older and would have considered or did seriously consider religious life when they were younger. Many had family obligations or, in the days before the internet, had no practicable way to find out more about religious life.

The point is that religious life is going to remain on the fringe where it has almost always been in the west, except for unusual situations like the first half of the 2oth c. in the US. There are now many more opportunities, especially for women, both in religion and the secular world. Many girls in the past joined religious life for the wrong reasons, and probably still do, at least in Africa and Asia–protection, a roof and food, education, status. We don’t want to go back to those days.

 

[Gertabelle]

“Life in a bubble?” Seriously? I was actually in a monastery. I actually cut my hair into a trash can placed in the sink in my cell – just a week before I left. I actually know what it is to be there, try it out, and then discern that it is not my vocation.

Vocation is the key word here. To compare religious vows to career choices is exactly the problem here. I know the word “vocation” may have more than one meaning, but the topic of this thread is the need for more nuns (sisters), and I think it prudent to apply to the word the meaning given by the Church to a religious vocation (also called the consecrated life).

In spite of all your well-reasoned and insightful opinions, I will continue to hold that it is a weak and demeaning attitude to argue that women and men cannot be expected to live up to their life-long vows. I suppose it’s also unreasonable to expect married couples to remain faithful to their vows until death as well, in your humble opinion?

Women and men who enter religious life as a career choice probably will have problems remaining faithful to their vows.

But those who enter religious life as a vocation, as a choice that represents their unique relationship with God, and their path to sanctity – these men and women probably don’t need an “out,” however well-intentioned you are in trying to give them one.

I need to be done with this thread, because it’s clear none of us is willing to be moved from our opinions.

God bless you all.

Gertie

 

[cyberwolf001]

So I see a lot about more Priests and more Nuns. What about Brothers, Friars and Monks?

Why no love for the Brothers?

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Gertie

With all due respect, a stubborn and rigid mind such as your own must make life particularly challenging. Such a mind is possibly what took you into Religious Life, such a mind is possibly what caused you to leave. I wonder how have you adjusted to “life on the outside”?

Debraran

Books which question Catholic thought/spirituality/dogma can lead one away from the Church. I can vouch for that from personal experience. But God will not abandon us forever. I am now back in. Opus Dei would not recommend reading anti-Catholic books.

Cyberwolf001

The Carthusians have priests, brothers and donati (people who donate some time to working within the Order under simple vows)

 

[debraran]

One last thought before putting it to rest, these books weren’t questioning dogma that hasn’t changed, except for one nun, they loved the church, it just wasn’t for them. The point was when you give everything up, when you enter and take vows of poverty, etc., if you discern it is wise to leave, you are at a disadvantage in the secular world.
I know that some priests/nuns probably stayed because “what else could I do” but today I think it is better and not as shameful, but it is hard depending on the number of years spent there.

I did recently read a book about Catholic bashing recently, . The New Anti-Catholicism: The Last Acceptable Prejudice, which discuss’s why some always bash us.

 

[DaughterOfMary6]

Gertie

With all due respect, a stubborn and rigid mind such as your own must make life particularly challenging. Such a mind is possibly what took you into Religious Life, such a mind is possibly what caused you to leave. I wonder how have you adjusted to “life on the outside”?

Debraran

Books which question Catholic thought/spirituality/dogma can lead one away from the Church. I can vouch for that from personal experience. But God will not abandon us forever. I am now back in. Opus Dei would not recommend reading anti-Catholic books.

Cyberwolf001

The Carthusians have priests, brothers and donati (people who donate some time to working within the Order under simple vows)

emphasis mine

I think it is extremely rude to speculate on the reasons why someone left religious life. That is none of anyone’s business but God, the community, and the person who left. Why can’t you just agree to disagree without putting others down in the process?

 

[Captain_America]

So I see a lot about more Priests and more Nuns. What about Brothers, Friars and Monks?

Why no love for the Brothers?

Good point, something everyone should recognize. I know in my case that if I’d known more about friars/monks/brothers I would probably have paid more attention to the possibility of a religious vocation. (I think I said earlier that being a priest was just unappealing to me).

The key thing a young person discerning should realize is that the “world” always glitters and looks so rich and promising, but contrast that with how very few people really are finding joy and flourishing in their worldly occupations!

 

[AllyC1991]

You’re in luck since I want to be one!

But you’re right because we have 3 Filippini nuns at my church who will be leaving in June. Our Pastor has been trying to get more but there are none. I’m glad we will still have the Sisters I’m discerning with but there will only be two or three of them as well.

 

[Captain_America]

You’re in luck since I want to be one!

But you’re right because we have 3 Filippini nuns at my church who will be leaving in June. Our Pastor has been trying to get more but there are none. I’m glad we will still have the Sisters I’m discerning with but there will only be two or three of them as well.

Good news and God bless!

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Once getting nuns/brothers/priests “signing up” it’s then difficult getting a candidate to stay -

• the work load has to be shared between fewer physically able members;
• there’s a strain on relationships. People need people their own age to relate to and
• If the community is one of aged, does the postulant face the realistic prospects of becoming a geriatric nurse to the others?

 

[debraran]

Franciscan Friars of the Renewal has a nice piece on Brothers:
franciscanfriars.com/religious%20brothers/cfrreligousbrother/llaybro.htm

I remember reading about a Passionate nun who was very young and the order had many older nuns. I thought it would be hard, but she said they needed her and she felt called there. They had pictures of her playing guitar with them, cooking, etc. but I hope and pray others join also, because an aging order is hard. I don’t remember which one but when I googled, I did see one with 2 younger novices, so maybe some orders will be rejuvinated with new holy men and women.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

The Orders which appear to be attracting the greatest number appear to be the enclosed ones: Speaking from personal experience both the Charterhouse in England (St Hugh’s at Parkminster, Sussex) and the one in the U.S.A. (Charterhouse of the Transfiguration, Arlington, Vermont) have a very healthy balance between young and old.

Perhaps some of the Orders with active apostolates in the world have become so close to (pious) secular life people who may have been attracted to Religious Life see not much difference between (pious) secular and Religious.

People tend to act according to “prescribed role” and I know that wearing a Religious habit makes a big difference in relationships.