We need some Jews here!

[FaithofAbraham]

oK. Which means that Chosen People was correct in his post. And it does nothing to dispute the assertion that Chrysotom expressed a blatant hatred and dispisement for Jews.

Do you think he was saying Jews were beasts fit to slaughter by Christians, or more like this, that they will perish by God:

2 Peter 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities (LIKE JESUS).

2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Sounds pretty similar:

“Although such beasts are unfit for work, they are fit for killing. And this is what happened to the Jews: while they were making themselves unfit for work, they grew fit for slaughter.”

 

[Valke2]

Doesn’t the talmud call gentiles dogs? Don’t you say prayers from the talmud that praise God fot not making you a woman, gentile, or dog?

Holy pot calling the kettle black…

I mean that is laughable, Jews have always held that gentiles are like dogs, even Jesus claimed this in the Gospels. Stop with the pity parade already. St. John Chrystosom didn’t like Jews get over it, there are tens of thousands of ultra-orthodox Jews in Brooklyn and the surrounding areas of NY who hate “gentiles”, yes even Rabbi’s…

As for “chosen people” I gotta laugh at his name as he defends me calling Judaism a supremacist ideology.

Rather than refute your tired arguments again and again, I think it’s time to ignore and move on. Best of luck.

 

[Valke2]

Yeah but it sounds like in Judaism:

Jews will be made sinless, following Torah perfectly with God’s Laws written in their hearts.

Jews will have everlasting life, with the curse of physical death and Adam’s sour grape being removed.

So it sounds like in Judaism, Gentiles will still be left to sin (in ways other than not observing Torah) and die, not receiving those benefits of the New Covenant.

What do you make of that passage, seed of man sown with seed of beast. I already said it refers to Gentiles grafted into Israel for the New Covenant.

I don’t think that is what Judaism teaches at all. When the messiah comes, he ursher’s in a messianic age that all benefit from. I have never heard it taught that all jews are elvated at the expense of the rest of the world.

 

[lukewarm]

Rather than refute your tired arguments again and again, I think it’s time to ignore and move on. Best of luck.

LOL that’s what I thought you’ve never actually refuted them, just ignored them. Good to see you sticking to your M.O.

Oh I forget no one can ever say anything negative to a Jew or about Judaism or they are a dyed in the wool anti-semite.

 

[Valke2]

What do you make of that passage, seed of man sown with seed of beast. I already said it refers to Gentiles grafted into Israel for the New Covenant.

I disagree. I think it is just a way of saying that God will enrich Israel with people and cattle.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I don’t think that is what Judaism teaches at all. When the messiah comes, he ursher’s in a messianic age that all benefit from. I have never heard it taught that all jews are elvated at the expense of the rest of the world.

When Jews say the New Covenant is only for them, what is left in all that for Gentiles? Jews get to live sinless, Gentiles have to work at it without God’s Laws on their hearts, correct?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I disagree. I think it is just a way of saying that God will enrich Israel with people and cattle.

Really, you think beef is an important part of this New Covenant discourse in Jeremiah? I kind of doubt that.

It directly relates to this too:

Daniel 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Iron is of course Gentiles, Clay and the Seed of Man, once again, is Jews.

In all this prophecy the Beast is always Gentiles.

That’s why taking the Mark of the Beast is trusting Gentile kingdoms and Caesar instead of God.

 

[Valke2]

Really, you think beef is an important part of this New Covenant discourse in Jeremiah? I kind of doubt that.

It directly relates to this too:

Daniel 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Iron is of course Gentiles, Clay and the Seed of Man, once again, is Jews.

In all this prophecy the Beast is always Gentiles.

That’s why taking the Mark of the Beast is trusting Gentile kingdoms and Caesar instead of God.

You are free to believe what you want. I don’t recall any teachings in Judiasm that I’ve studied which equate gentiles with beasts, other than some rabbinical opinions that were not followed.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

You are free to believe what you want. I don’t recall any teachings in Judiasm that I’ve studied which equate gentiles with beasts, other than some rabbinical opinions that were not followed.

How about this.

Ezekiel 23:17 And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them, and her mind was alienated from them.

Ezekiel 23:20 For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.

Or this too:

Daniel 7:23-24 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

 

[Valke2]

How about this.

Ezekiel 23:17 And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them, and her mind was alienated from them.

Ezekiel 23:20 For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.

Or this too:

Daniel 7:23-24 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

very nice. None of these verses teach that Gentiles are beasts.

 

[grandfather]

Do you think he was saying Jews were beasts fit to slaughter by Christians, or more like this, that they will perish by God:

2 Peter 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities (LIKE JESUS).

2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Sounds pretty similar:

“Although such beasts are unfit for work, they are fit for killing. And this is what happened to the Jews: while they were making themselves unfit for work, they grew fit for slaughter.”

I wonder of he was referring to the destruction of Jerusalem that had already happened along with great slaughter, that was prophesied by Jesus.

 

[grandfather]

ok, but if a being has inifinite attributes (infinite mercy and justice? How will that work?) then it is essentially, a being that encompasses everything and since we cannot comprehend such a state of being, it is difficult to decide who believes in God and who doesn’t. It is not difficult to determine, however, who keeps God’s mitzvot/commandments and who doesn’t. This is the reason Judaism is preceived as being more concerned with what we do than with what we think. IMO

How is it not difficult to determine who keeps the commandments? No one but God knows the secret of the heart. No one keeps the commandments. Everyone fails in something. We can see the outward person, but everyone has some sin.

While we finite beings can not understand an infiinite being fully, that does not mean we can not know anytihng about such a being. Jesus taught by using analogy. “The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a farmer who went to sow seed, or a shepherd who lost a lamb from his flock, or a housewife who lost a coin, etc.” We understand about the attributes of the nature of God in ways that He has revealed to us. We attain this knowledge by believing in faith that which has been revealed, incuding the revelation to the Jews. In the Old Testament God reveals Himself as existence. In the New Testament, or covenant He reveals Himself as love. You know what it is to exist. You have existance, because you were given it. You were created and given existance. You don’t know what it is to be existance. You can love, know love, be loved, but you can not be Love. You can participate in the nature of God as you are made in His image and likeness, and you do by taking on His attributes, truth, love, mercy, justice, life, goodness. Even though you are a spiritual being, you can never wrap your arms or finite mind around these spiritual things, because they are infinite. Still you can know something of them, be immersed in them and that is why you are created. You are created with a purpose, to love and be loved, to know and be known. Try as you will, you will not be able to keep the law, but you will be forgiven if you forgive. You will not receive mercy if you insist you do not need it. Jesus came for sinners, people like me. He came for the broken and wounded. If you think you keep the commandments, you do not need Him. I need mercy. Without it I am doomed. If I need mercy I need the giver of mercy. That being is the God of Israel, the source of all that is.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I have read through this tread and I am saddened. I have no idea what it would like to be Jewish. I do have a great love and respect for the Jewish people. These are the people chosen by God to be his own. through him he has made his will reveled to the world. It is through the Jewish people that God gave us his Son. I do not intend to insult are Jewish friends here by saying that its is just my belief and I can not not say it. I wish that I knew more about the Jewish faith than I do as I feel that it could only make me a better Christian.

As for the sins of the past against the Jewish people by Christians. there is now way to ever correct them. We do nothing by rehashing them. I understand the thinking of any people in keeping themselves separated for the general public. If you hold that your religion is what God has commanded then you are not going to fully interact with those outside of it nor are you going to very welcoming to your children dating or marring outsiders. The last thing you want is influences that distract from your beliefs.

The biggest problem I can see in todays world between Christians and Jews is that as Christians we are called to evangelize and spread the Gospel of Jesus to all and Jewish see the teaching of Christ as foreign to Laws and commandments of God. We forget that we both hold to the same one and only living God of Abraham Issac and Jacob. If we could learn to ask Question of one another and listen to the answers that are given I think that both Christian and Jew would find a deeper meaning and understanding of their own faith.

These are just thoughts of mine, maybe hopes.

 

[Valke2]

How is it not difficult to determine who keeps the commandments? No one but God knows the secret of the heart. No one keeps the commandments. Everyone fails in something. We can see the outward person, but everyone has some sin.

It is not a question for jews, who keeps them. It is a question as to who is obligatged to keep them.

 

[grandfather]

It is not a question for jews, who keeps them. It is a question as to who is obligatged to keep them.

Everyone is obligated to keep the moral law.

 

[Valke2]

Everyone is obligated to keep the moral law.

I must not be making myself clear. someone had asked if it was fair that the Jews keep the new covenant to themselves, in that it would allow Jews only to joyously and effortlessly keep the commandments. My response was that the reason it does not include gentiles is because gentiles are not required to keep all the commandments in the first place. I agree that everyone is obligated to keep the moral law.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

very nice. None of these verses teach that Gentiles are beasts.

Well of course not. But you must agree that symbolically they refer to Gentiles.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I must not be making myself clear. someone had asked if it was fair that the Jews keep the new covenant to themselves, in that it would allow Jews only to joyously and effortlessly keep the commandments. My response was that the reason it does not include gentiles is because gentiles are not required to keep all the commandments in the first place. I agree that everyone is obligated to keep the moral law.

A world free of sin and violence requires that both Jews and Gentiles receive God’s Laws so they automatically follow them, so the New Covenant can’t just be for Jews. This is why the sour grape of original sin is also mentioned in Jeremiah, Adam’s curse ends so there is no more sin and death in the world for all his children not just Jews. And without the evil inclination all you have left in your heart is God’s Laws, all things good.

So that’s why Judaism’s view of Jews only doesn’t really work.

 

[Valke2]

A world free of sin and violence requires that both Jews and Gentiles receive God’s Laws so they automatically follow them, so the New Covenant can’t just be for Jews. This is why the sour grape of original sin is also mentioned in Jeremiah, Adam’s curse ends so there is no more sin and death in the world for all his children not just Jews. And without the evil inclination all you have left in your heart is God’s Laws, all things good.

So that’s why Judaism’s view of Jews only doesn’t really work.

First, you are isolateing a verse in Jerimiah and assuming it ignores nonjews. If we read a little further, 31:34: No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, “Know the Lord,” for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord; for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.

It seems clear that the prophecy is including all nations. That it will come to pass when the entire world recognizes the One God.

The main intent of the “new covenant” language in Jerimiah is to assure the Jewish people that, just as they had a covenant at Sinai and broke it, GOd will enter into a new covenant with them, in which they will be restored to their land, permanently. In the Messianic Age.

The new covenant that Jerimiah states wasn’t a new idea. In Chapter 27, Jermiah: Therefore, behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when men shall no longer say, “As the Lord lives who brought up the people of Israel out of the land of Egypt,” but, “as the Lord lives who brought up and led the descendants of the house of Israel out of the north country and out of all the countries where He had driven them.” Then they shall dwell in their own land.

THis is an echo of what is taught in Chapters 28 and 29 of Deu. Essentially saying, be faithful to God and your people will be blessed.

To sum up: The New COvenant in Jerimiah clearly takes place in a time when the entire world acknowledges God and does not need to be taught about God. The entire world will know this. At such time God will enter into a new covenant with Israel, restoring us to our land forever. When is this to take place? During the Messianic Age. When will that be? I’ll send you an email when it happens.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

First, you are isolateing a verse in Jerimiah and assuming it ignores nonjews. If we read a little further, 31:34: No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, “Know the Lord,” for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord; for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.

It seems clear that the prophecy is including all nations. That it will come to pass when the entire world recognizes the One God.

The main intent of the “new covenant” language in Jerimiah is to assure the Jewish people that, just as they had a covenant at Sinai and broke it, GOd will enter into a new covenant with them, in which they will be restored to their land, permanently. In the Messianic Age.

The new covenant that Jerimiah states wasn’t a new idea. In Chapter 27, Jermiah: Therefore, behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when men shall no longer say, “As the Lord lives who brought up the people of Israel out of the land of Egypt,” but, “as the Lord lives who brought up and led the descendants of the house of Israel out of the north country and out of all the countries where He had driven them.” Then they shall dwell in their own land.

THis is an echo of what is taught in Chapters 28 and 29 of Deu. Essentially saying, be faithful to God and your people will be blessed.

To sum up: The New COvenant in Jerimiah clearly takes place in a time when the entire world acknowledges God and does not need to be taught about God. The entire world will know this. At such time God will enter into a new covenant with Israel, restoring us to our land forever. When is this to take place? During the Messianic Age. When will that be? I’ll send you an email when it happens.

I agree it remarries them to God where the Old Covenant had a divorce from God (Jer. 3:8), for certain to the House of Israel, not as clear with Judah.

But if it is during the Messianic age which is expected to be a time of world peace that Jews say Jesus did not bring (we say yet) then it seems that Jews and Gentiles must both be affected and have God’s Laws written on our hearts, which happens when there is no more Satan/yetzer hara to cause us to do otherwise.

Else if Jews are only obeying perfectly then that would leave Gentiles to still sin and there probably won’t be world peace if that is still going on.

So that’s why Jeremiah 31:27 is saying Gentiles will be sown in with that New Covenant so that nobody will be sinning or fighting which is the expectation of the Messianic age.

And if there is no more sin then the generational curse of physical death from Adam, the sour grape, should be ending too. Which is also there in Jeremiah 31:29.

So it seems that the New Covenant does all that, which is something different than what they had out of Egypt which it does clearly say in Jeremiah 31:32.