"We"re all going the same place anyways"

[SonCatcher]

I’ve accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior by confessing to Him that I am a sinner and believing that He was sent by the Father to die for my sins making atonement for them on the cross and I believe that God raised Him from the died. Through the precious blood of Jesus I am reconciled back to the Father and now I live for Jesus as the Lord of my life. This I have done outside of the Catholic Church. Is this what you are talking about when you said it is possible to be saved outside of the Church but harder?

The things you describe are characteristic of those who are within the Church, not those who are outside.

CCC 838
“The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”

From the above, Protestants are “imperfectly” part of the Catholic Church.

 

[prayerandstudy]

Well that must be me as I posted in #16.
I have given my life to Christ because I am a sinner and believe that Jesus died for me. I am so in love with Christ that I have made Him the Lord of my life and ask Him to continually sanctify me by His most gracious mercy to be transformed into His image. This I have done after leaving the Catholic church were I spent over 30 years in. It’s not about rules and regulations and crossing your “T’s” and dotting your “I’s”. It’s about a personal relationship with the Savoir and whoever comes to Him, He will no wise cast out.

I have been thinking about your post and first, I want to say, that it is wonderful that you have found a good relationship with Jesus Christ.
You mention that it’s not about rules and regulations but a personal relationship with the Saviour. I don’t think it’s an either/or thing but a both/and. Just as in a family the ideal is to have loving relationships among the members and each one with the father of the family, so it is in the Church. But also, each family (and the Church) has rules. Both love and discipline are needed both in our human families and in our Church. Jesus said "“If you love Me, you will keep my commandments.” John 14:15 and in 1John 5:3 we read "For the love of God is this, that we keep his commandments. "

 

[SonCatcher]

So, I have a question of my own that I think may help create a better answer for the OP’s question and help clear up my own understanding. To any more learned readers out there, what is an example of someone who is ignorant through a fault of their own?

One delightful example I have heard is that of an aboriginal person, living in an area that has never been visited by missionaries, who sacrifices chickens to a rock with the sincere intent of worship.

Stretching this is “invincible ignorance”, which essentially creates the same situation with a person who honestly has not understood the Gospel in a way it could be accepted, despite attempts to teach it to him.

In addition, what does “knowing the Catholic Church is necessary” entail? In this situation is there a substantive difference between “knowing” and “believing?”

I think this probably refers to someone who actually came to believe, yet refuses to enter into full Communion with the Church because of rebelliousness or fear.

 

[WD615]

Well that must be me as I posted in #16.
I have given my life to Christ because I am a sinner and believe that Jesus died for me. I am so in love with Christ that I have made Him the Lord of my life and ask Him to continually sanctify me by His most gracious mercy to be transformed into His image. This I have done after leaving the Catholic church were I spent over 30 years in. It’s not about rules and regulations and crossing your “T’s” and dotting your “I’s”. It’s about a personal relationship with the Savoir and whoever comes to Him, He will no wise cast out.

While it is great that you wish to follow Jesus, it’s not all “about a personal relationship with the Savior” and that is it. As another quoted Jesus said, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” John 14:15 But as for your last remark, see the Parable of the Ten Virgins that I mentioned earlier. The Bible explicitly says that some who call Jesus Lord will not enter into Heaven.

 

[Aloysium]

I have given my life to Christ because I am a sinner and believe that Jesus died for me. I am so in love with Christ that I have made Him the Lord of my life and ask Him to continually sanctify me by His most gracious mercy to be transformed into His image. This I have done after leaving the Catholic church were I spent over 30 years in. It’s not about rules and regulations and crossing your “T’s” and dotting your “I’s”. It’s about a personal relationship with the Savoir and whoever comes to Him, He will no wise cast out.

I wonder about the way it is phrased here that “It’s about a personal relationship . . .”
Now, your posting on these forums suggests that what is involved is more than just one’s individual relationship with our Saviour; we are to approach Him as a Church. Through this medium we are trying to get closer to Him together. I see the mass and the sacraments as a necessary part of keeping Jesus’ two main commandments of love.

 

[Miriam1947]

Could anyone help me figure out what this means in context?
Romans:
11For the scripture says, “No one who believes in him will be put to shame.”j 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, enriching all who call upon him.k 13For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
This makes it sound like anyone who believes is saved and I know this means that God is God of all but how could I defend this scripture?

This a list that PRmerger put together. It is quite good, I think and can help when there is only one scripture verse used to talk about salvation.

See how Catholics proclaim we are saved:

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By eating his flesh and drinking his blood (Jn 6)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By keeping the commandments (Matt 19:17)

By our words (Matt 12:37)

By enduring to the end…Matt.24:13

 

[berk60]

This a list that PRmerger put together. It is quite good, I think and can help when there is only one scripture verse used to talk about salvation.

See how Catholics proclaim we are saved:

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By eating his flesh and drinking his blood (Jn 6)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By keeping the commandments (Matt 19:17)

By our words (Matt 12:37)

By enduring to the end…Matt.24:13

Unfortunately you are adding to Christ’s salvation with works of man and God said salvation is a gift of His grace. Belief what you will but the cross plus anything else equals nothing because you have made another Gospel out of His word. Salvation and the life afterwards are all God’s doing

 

[WD615]

Unfortunately you are adding to Christ’s salvation with works of man and God said salvation is a gift of His grace. Belief what you will but the cross plus anything else equals nothing because you have made another Gospel out of His word. Salvation and the life afterwards are all God’s doing

But you didn’t address any of the Scriptures he quoted… He’s not adding anything because this is the Word of God he quoted! And note that all of these works “done” by us are really done by God. All of these things are truly a gift of God’s grace.

Also, Jesus didn’t just apply His saving blood shed on the Cross to just anyone! Then everyone would go to Heaven. Surely, there are some conditions. Now, if he’s “adding” anything, you’ll have to prove why the necessary conditions you set out are different from the list that came from Scripture.

 

[berk60]

But you didn’t address any of the Scriptures he quoted… He’s not adding anything because this is the Word of God he quoted! And note that all of these works “done” by us are really done by God. All of these things are truly a gift of God’s grace.

Also, Jesus didn’t just apply His saving blood shed on the Cross to just anyone! Then everyone would go to Heaven. Surely, there are some conditions. Now, if he’s “adding” anything, you’ll have to prove why the necessary conditions you set out are different from the list that came from Scripture.

Scripture verse are cetainly not adding anything onto salvation. It’s what you do with those verses that is adding onto salvation. When you take them and use them to turn them into Sacerdotalism then comes the addition to salvation.

Sacerdotalism teaches that the priesthood is a special class of churchman and is a necessary part of worship. People cannot approach God on their own, but must come through a priest, whether it is for confessing sin, taking communion, or receiving grace.

The New Testament does not support a sacerdotal system of worship. The Holy Spirit has diligently prevented the name sacerdos, priest or cleric, from being given even to an apostle or to various other offices in the New Testament. In other words, the Bible never uses the word priest in relation to church leadership.

When Jesus offered Himself as the ultimate sacrifice for sin, God tore the veil in the temple in two, indicating open access to His presence through the body of Christ (Hebrews 10:19-20). Jesus now occupies the office of eternal High Priest, making constant intercession for His people (Hebrews 7:24-25).

 

[SonCatcher]

Unfortunately you are adding to Christ’s salvation with works of man and God said salvation is a gift of His grace. Belief what you will but the cross plus anything else equals nothing because you have made another Gospel out of His word. Salvation and the life afterwards are all God’s doing

All of the items cited by Miriam1947 are pure grace…

It is only by grace that we believe.

Grace makes it possible for us to repent.

Baptism is given to us through grace (that we Catholics baptize infants affirms that it is grace only, since infants are incapable of any kind of work, including the ability to ask for grace)

Jesus giving the Eucharist to us is a grace in which we are able to participate in His Passion.

The “work of the Spirit” cannot be described in any way but “grace”.

The ability to proclaim our faith only comes by grace.

“Knowledge of the truth” is given by grace.

Only by grace do we come into the power to perform good works.

“By grace” - This entry makes me suspect you did not read the list carefully before raising a blanket objection.

“By his blood” - Again, what could you possibly have against this?

“By his righteousness” - three-peat.

Only by grace can we keep the commandments.

“By our words” - Seems to me a repeat of the sixth point, but the necessity for grace remains.

It is only by grace that one could persevere to the end.

 

[SonCatcher]

Scripture verse are cetainly not adding anything onto salvation. It’s what you do with those verses that is adding onto salvation. When you take them and use them to turn them into Sacerdotalism then comes the addition to salvation.

Sacerdotalism teaches that the priesthood is a special class of churchman and is a necessary part of worship. People cannot approach God on their own, but must come through a priest, whether it is for confessing sin, taking communion, or receiving grace.

The New Testament does not support a sacerdotal system of worship. The Holy Spirit has diligently prevented the name sacerdos, priest or cleric, from being given even to an apostle or to various other offices in the New Testament. In other words, the Bible never uses the word priest in relation to church leadership.

When Jesus offered Himself as the ultimate sacrifice for sin, God tore the veil in the temple in two, indicating open access to His presence through the body of Christ (Hebrews 10:19-20). Jesus now occupies the office of eternal High Priest, making constant intercession for His people (Hebrews 7:24-25).

Berk, Catholicism is not a sacerdotal system in the way you accuse (you write as though it were to keep grace away from the masses). You don’t understand what happens in the Catholic Church.

It is Christ who does everything, directly. All grace comes directly from Him, though it does come through our participation.

 

[Blacksword]

Scripture verse are cetainly not adding anything onto salvation. It’s what you do with those verses that is adding onto salvation. When you take them and use them to turn them into Sacerdotalism then comes the addition to salvation.

Sacerdotalism teaches that the priesthood is a special class of churchman and is a necessary part of worship. People cannot approach God on their own, but must come through a priest, whether it is for confessing sin, taking communion, or receiving grace.

The New Testament does not support a sacerdotal system of worship. The Holy Spirit has diligently prevented the name sacerdos, priest or cleric, from being given even to an apostle or to various other offices in the New Testament. In other words, the Bible never uses the word priest in relation to church leadership.

When Jesus offered Himself as the ultimate sacrifice for sin, God tore the veil in the temple in two, indicating open access to His presence through the body of Christ (Hebrews 10:19-20). Jesus now occupies the office of eternal High Priest, making constant intercession for His people (Hebrews 7:24-25).

Um, you are wrong here, about a great many things. You clearly didn’t read the post as the things discussed are directly stated in the very good scripture lists provided. Also the NT does mention priests, ALOT, in fact. Here, read and enjoy: catholic.com/quickquestions/where-in-the-new-testament-are-priests-mentioned

 

[berk60]

Um, you are wrong here, about a great many things. You clearly didn’t read the post as the things discussed are directly stated in the very good scripture lists provided. Also the NT does mention priests, ALOT, in fact. Here, read and enjoy: catholic.com/quickquestions/where-in-the-new-testament-are-priests-mentioned

Thanks for the link but
I don’t see priest from the word presbyters in the Strongs concordance.

Transliteration
presbyteros
Pronunciation
pres-bü’-te-ros (Key)

Part of Speech
adjective
Root Word (Etymology)
Comparative of presbus (elderly)
TDNT Reference
6:651,931
Vines
View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage

1. elder, of age,
   a) the elder of two people
   b) advanced in life, an elder, a senior
2. forefathers
3. a term of rank or office
   a) among the Jews
4. members of the great council or Sanhedrin (because in early times the rulers of the people, judges, etc., were selected from elderly men)
5. of those who in separate cities managed public affairs and administered justice
   b) among the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches) The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeably
   c) the twenty four members of the heavenly Sanhedrin or court seated on thrones around the throne of God

 

[berk60]

Berk, Catholicism is not a sacerdotal system in the way you accuse (you write as though it were to keep grace away from the masses). You don’t understand what happens in the Catholic Church.

It is Christ who does everything, directly. All grace comes directly from Him, though it does come through our participation.

I’m sorry if I came across as accusing as I just wanted to point out the function of the priest in the Catholic faith.

The priest is one who administers the rituals of the sacraments similar to priest in the Old Testament except the rituals were different back then.

 

[Aloysium]

We were created in the image of God, the Trinity: Adam and Eve, joined in love for each other and for God. We manifest our true nature being a part of God’s Church. What is salvation but participation with all the angels and saints in loving and glorifying Him. This begins here. We pray, “Our Father”, “Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses.” Even in solitary prayer and meditation, in coming closer to Him, we are united with His eternal Church in never-ending praise and worship. The Catholic Church, founded by Jesus, has the responsibility of carrying out that role on earth.

 

[Blacksword]

Thanks for the link but
I don’t see priest from the word presbyters in the Strongs concordance.

Transliteration
presbyteros
Pronunciation
pres-bü’-te-ros (Key)

Part of Speech
adjective
Root Word (Etymology)
Comparative of presbus (elderly)
TDNT Reference
6:651,931
Vines
View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage

1. elder, of age,
   a) the elder of two people
   b) advanced in life, an elder, a senior
2. forefathers
3. a term of rank or office
   a) among the Jews
4. members of the great council or Sanhedrin (because in early times the rulers of the people, judges, etc., were selected from elderly men)
5. of those who in separate cities managed public affairs and administered justice
   b) among the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches) The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeably
   c) the twenty four members of the heavenly Sanhedrin or court seated on thrones around the throne of God

I don’t care a whit what “Strong” has to say about the word “presbyter”, it is a fact of etymology that the English word “priest” has its root in the word “presbyter”. The word has even been translated as such in some English Bible translations. And by the way, 2b in your quote essentially says exact that: it’s the word for the leaders who were ordained by the Apostles in the laying of hands on them to lead their local communities. In other words, a priest! To the point: the NT sets out three levels of ministry, bishops (who themselves are also priests), priests, and deacons. What church still holds to this organizational structure today?

 

[guanophore]

I’m sorry if I came across as accusing as I just wanted to point out the function of the priest in the Catholic faith.

The priest is one who administers the rituals of the sacraments similar to priest in the Old Testament except the rituals were different back then.

What does it mean to “administer” a ritual?

Can you explain what you mean by “the rituals of the sacraments”?

 

[guanophore]

Thanks for the link but
I don’t see priest from the word presbyters in the Strongs concordance.

Transliteration
presbyteros
Pronunciation
pres-bü’-te-ros (Key)

Part of Speech
adjective
Root Word (Etymology)
Comparative of presbus (elderly)
TDNT Reference
6:651,931
Vines
View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage

1. elder, of age,
   a) the elder of two people
   b) advanced in life, an elder, a senior
2. forefathers
3. a term of rank or office
   a) among the Jews
4. members of the great council or Sanhedrin (because in early times the rulers of the people, judges, etc., were selected from elderly men)
5. of those who in separate cities managed public affairs and administered justice
   b) among the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches) The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeably
   c) the twenty four members of the heavenly Sanhedrin or court seated on thrones around the throne of God

You are right, our modern term “priest” is actually a contraction of presbyteros that evolved. Middle English preist, came from Old English prēost, ultimately from Late Latin presbyter. But the term presbyter, which was transliterated into Latin, is Gk. in origin.

No worries, though, because if you look at the non-English use of this word in Church documents beginning with the NT, you will see that the Gk. has been preserved in the East.

The role of the priest in both East and West is the same, no matter how it is spelled. This is what has come down to us from the Apostles.

 

[guanophore]

Scripture verse are cetainly not adding anything onto salvation. It’s what you do with those verses that is adding onto salvation. When you take them and use them to turn them into Sacerdotalism then comes the addition to salvation.

You believe this because you were given a truncated version of the Gospel from the beginning. The Reformers wanted to separate the authorative apostolic succession from the faith, so they cut out parts of the One Faith that was handed down once for all to the Church.

Sacerdotalism teaches that the priesthood is a special class of churchman and is a necessary part of worship.

What do you mean, “class of churchman”? I have never heard this phrase before.

People cannot approach God on their own, but must come through a priest, whether it is for confessing sin, taking communion, or receiving grace.

You have been misinformed about the Catholic faith, the priesthood, and the nature of Holy Orders. None of what you have posted here is true. Where did you get these distorted ideas?

The New Testament does not support a sacerdotal system of worship.

Certainly not the way you have presented it here!

The Holy Spirit has diligently prevented the name sacerdos, priest or cleric, from being given even to an apostle or to various other offices in the New Testament.

You are right berk. The HS has revealed that NT priesthood is all centered in the One Priesthood of Christ, which is after the order of Mechizedek. What you have demonstrated here is a hostile aversion to something that only exists in your own mind, other wise known as a strawman. You have created an idea that does not exist in Catholicism, then attack it as if it had anything to do with what we believe.

In other words, the Bible never uses the word priest in relation to church leadership.

You are just showing your ignorance of the entymology of the word, berk. There is quite a bit in the Scripture about the role of the presybter, all of it leadership.

When Jesus offered Himself as the ultimate sacrifice for sin, God tore the veil in the temple in two, indicating open access to His presence through the body of Christ (Hebrews 10:19-20). Jesus now occupies the office of eternal High Priest, making constant intercession for His people (Hebrews 7:24-25).

Indeed! And He created that Body on earth, built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets. He fulfilled the OT shadow of what was to come, with a High Priest, a ministerial priesthood, and the priesthood of all believers.

1 Peter 2:4-6
4 Come to him, a living stone, though rejected by mortals yet chosen and precious in God’s sight, and 5 like living stones, let yourselves be built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

The duty of that priesthood is to offer sacrifices! And you will find that the Gk. in this passage is “heirus” the same used in the OT for the priesthood. So just on this single verse, your whole wild theory falls through to the ground.