We save ourselves

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NoelFitz

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Pelagius has had a bad press, but I think he believed in grace as much as Augustine but in a different way.

A concern arose for me after reading 2 Corinthians 5:10 (NAB) “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.”

I note in the Hebrew Bible “I call heaven and earth today to witness against you: I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. Choose life, then, that you and your descendants may live", (Deut. 30:19 NAB)”

In the Didache I see

“1. There are two ways, one of life and one of death, and there is a great difference between these two ways.
(2) Now this is the way of life: first, “you shall love God, who made you”; second, “your neighbor as yourself”; and “whatever you do not wish to happen to you, do not do to another.”3
(3) The teaching of these words is this: “Bless those who curse you,” and “pray for your enemies,” and “fast for those who persecute you.”.

St Augustine, the great champion of Grace, wrote “God who created you without you, will not save you without you”.

Thus does it seems the choice of heaven or hell depends on our free will?

On one side there is God, with his grace and providence and the Church (in heaven and in earth) while on the other side there is the “world, the flesh and the devil”. But in the final analysis we make the choice. God sends no one to hell. People choose to reject God.

However, we can only choose the good, evil is the lack of good. So if it seems a good thing to stay in bed on a cold Sunday and not go to mass, this used to me a mortal sin (other things being equal) so we choose hell. On the other hand if we freely get up and make it to mass, hence (possibly) gain merit by our free choice, hence we will go to heaven (unless prevented by other circumstances). God does not force us to do good, no more than the devil forces us to do evil.

God gives everyone, Christian or not sufficient grace to be saved. But the choice is ours. We save ourselves, it is a free choice.

Does this sound odd? Did we not learn we are saved by the merits of Jesus, through his life, death and resurrection? But if we go to hell by our free choice then we go to heaven also by our free choice. We choose life, we choose heaven. It depends on us.

Sounds odd! Please help.
 
NoelFitz said:
Pelagius has had a bad press, but I think he believed in grace as much as Augustine but in a different way.

A concern arose for me after reading 2 Corinthians 5:10 (NAB) “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.”

I note in the Hebrew Bible “I call heaven and earth today to witness against you: I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. Choose life, then, that you and your descendants may live", (Deut. 30:19 NAB)”

In the Didache I see

“1. There are two ways, one of life and one of death, and there is a great difference between these two ways.
(2) Now this is the way of life: first, “you shall love God, who made you”; second, “your neighbor as yourself”; and “whatever you do not wish to happen to you, do not do to another.”3
(3) The teaching of these words is this: “Bless those who curse you,” and “pray for your enemies,” and “fast for those who persecute you.”.

St Augustine, the great champion of Grace, wrote “God who created you without you, will not save you without you”.

Thus does it seems the choice of heaven or hell depends on our free will?

On one side there is God, with his grace and providence and the Church (in heaven and in earth) while on the other side there is the “world, the flesh and the devil”. But in the final analysis we make the choice. God sends no one to hell. People choose to reject God.

However, we can only choose the good, evil is the lack of good. So if it seems a good thing to stay in bed on a cold Sunday and not go to mass, this used to me a mortal sin (other things being equal) so we choose hell. On the other hand if we freely get up and make it to mass, hence (possibly) gain merit by our free choice, hence we will go to heaven (unless prevented by other circumstances). God does not force us to do good, no more than the devil forces us to do evil.

God gives everyone, Christian or not sufficient grace to be saved. But the choice is ours. We save ourselves, it is a free choice.

Does this sound odd? Did we not learn we are saved by the merits of Jesus, through his life, death and resurrection? But if we go to hell by our free choice then we go to heaven also by our free choice. We choose life, we choose heaven. It depends on us.

Sounds odd! Please help.
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Hi, Noel!

…let’s make it simple:

…after a long tedious work day the body is tired, used up and dirty… we have a choice; we can continue to tread on or we can take a shower… when we take a shower our body is cleansed from the day’s work… did we clean ourselves or did the water cleansed us?

Salvation is the same… we can opt to choose Life (to live in Obedience to God’s Will, Merit Justification, and gain Eternal Salvation) or we can choose to reject Life–this, by default, procures Death.

…by choosing Life we choose God and His Salvific Plan.

…by choosing Death we choose to reject God and inherit damnation.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
JCrichton

thank you so much for your reply.

Here in Ireland it is late at night, and your replies always deserve and demand serious thought and reflection, and a bit of prayer helps, so I will not reply fully to your post now.

My initial response is to thing of Acts:
  • While Paul was so speaking in his defense, Festus said in a loud voice, “You are mad, Paul; much learning is driving you mad.” *(Acts 26:24 NAB)
This year is considered the 500th anniversary of the Reformation and there have been many talks about Luther and salvation/justification/redemption/righteousness by faith, not works. A project for me was to try to understand what the fuss was all about. I get confused, as you have noted many times, but here in CAF I feel I can discuss my views in a safe environment, among sympathetic friends, at a challenging level, but not too abstract.

So thank you once again for all your support and I will reflect on what you wrote.
 
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

Salvation has nothing to do with what you do, other than believe. God gives you grace and you respond to it by believing. You do not save yourself.
 
Correct. We do not save ourselves. We participate, however, in our own salvation by saying “yes” to God. Not always easy. The biggest “yes” for most of us is fully embracing the Church he left us as the straight and narrow path. Otherwise, camel passing through eye of needle time.
 
peter26 said:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

Salvation has nothing to do with what you do, other than believe. God gives you grace and you respond to it by believing. You do not save yourself.
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You can’t leave 2:10 out of the equation though.
“For we are God’said handiwork created for good works before the beginning of time” as well as James 2:24 stating “a person is justified by works and not faith alone”.

You see, faith brings us to Christ who made it possible for reconciliation with God, but our actions provide witness to that faith but don’the in and of themselves save us.

PAX
 
We must be in a state of justice in order to be saved, and God is He who justifies us. Yet not without our consent/cooperation:

**1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism:34

But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42**

Synergism
 
Thanks for all the excellent replies.

Usually my posts initially meet with opposition, but then the replies become more favorable.

However, I used to think my ideas are my own, but in fact I seem to be echoing the ideas of a priest in our parish. I wonder has he altered my views, or do I agree with him since he shares my prejudices.

However today at mass he said we are made three times. First at the beginning of time God made us when everything was made in God’s mind, secondly at the moment of conception by our parents and thirdly we make ourselves by the way we live and grow (‘under the inspiration of grace of course’) he added.

At another time he said that for every difficult question there is a simple answer, and it is usually wrong.

Anyway you might like to look at the website of our parish newtownparkparish.com/
 
JCrichton #2

It isn’t simple.

In baptism does the water make us clean?

When I was in school, prior to Vat II, there were simple answers. Now things are complicated.

As I said before ‘Lewis Carroll’ who was an ordained minister, mathematician and Oxford Academic wrote that Humpty Dumpty explained that words mean what we say they mean. Thus for Catholics and Protestants the same word has different meanings, e.g. ‘faith’.

I am reminded of two Kerry shopkeepers, one a grocer and the other a baker who used to stand at the door of their shops and never agree, because they argued from different premises.

Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of our religion: (1 Tim. 3:16 RSV)
 
Peter26 #4

Initially when I read your post I thought you were a traditional Presbyterian. But reading your posts you seem an honest thinking Catholic. Are you a cafeteria Catholic? I wonder. As a lawyer you seem to seek the truth of things.

You seem concerned about the one true Church.

I am reminded about a meeting I attended some time ago when Bishop Tom Wright gave a beautiful talk about what membership of the Christian Church meant - being a follower of Christ. Afterwards I congratulated him on his new idea, which later a priest friend of mine told me was traditional Anglican teaching for hundreds of years.

We have an expression 'he is looking at me still!
 
V A
You wrote
*Correct. We do not save ourselves. *

Is our ‘yes’ to God a decision we make using our own free will? If so we save ourselves.
 
NoelFitz said:
JCrichton #2

It isn’t simple.

In baptism does the water make us clean?

When I was in school, prior to Vat II, there were simple answers. Now things are complicated.

As I said before ‘Lewis Carroll’ who was an ordained minister, mathematician and Oxford Academic wrote that Humpty Dumpty explained that words mean what we say they mean. Thus for Catholics and Protestants the same word has different meanings, e.g. ‘faith’.

I am reminded of two Kerry shopkeepers, one a grocer and the other a baker who used to stand at the door of their shops and never agree, because they argued from different premises.

Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of our religion: (1 Tim. 3:16 RSV)
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Hi, Noel!

…problem with your reply is that you’ve taken the argument to a different level… when did I infer Baptism?

Maran atha!

Angel
 
CS
You wrote that your heroes and heroines are those prepared to defend the faith in public, yet you are unwilling to debate here, and prefer private messages. This seems odd.

However you do stress the importance of friendship.
I agree, following (perhaps) J H Newman) that friendship is vital. At present the Chuch needs to build up friendship among Catholics, fellowship, koinonia.

Perhaps like in Oklahoma!
‘The conservative/traditionalist and the liberal/progressive should be friends’
Does it remind us of Cain and Abel?
 
JCrichton

You wrote:
.…problem with your reply is that you’ve taken the argument to a different level… when did I infer Baptism?

I was thinking about
‘when we take a shower our body is cleansed from the day’s work… did we clean ourselves or did the water cleansed us?’

Thank you for your contining patience.

You have claimed before that I get/am confused.

I admit guilty as charged.
 
NoelFitz said:
V A
You wrote
*Correct. We do not save ourselves. *

Is our ‘yes’ to God a decision we make using our own free will? If so we save ourselves.
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Hi, Noel!

…that’s just it! …we are responding (those who choose to heed God’s Call) to God’s Initial Call and we are embracing His Salvific Plan:
8 but what proves that God loves us is that Christ died for us while we were still sinners. 9 Having died to make us righteous, is it likely that he would now fail to save us from God’s anger? 10 When we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, we were still enemies; now that we have been reconciled, surely we may count on being saved by the life of his Son? 11 Not merely because we have been reconciled but because we are filled with joyful trust in God, through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have already gained our reconciliation.
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(Romans 5:8-11)
…yes, we must cooperate/collaborate with God’s Salvific Plan; but, no, we do not “Save” ourselves!

…I’ll offer you one more analogy:

…you’re in the middle of a flash-flood; water is coming down as a deluge that will not stop; as fast as you can you rush to your house’s roof; all of your family members have been evacuated in one form or another… you’re the last on the roof; there’s no one around but an old lady in a small boat; she approaches you and throws you a line–though she does not have the power to pull you into the boat, she is experienced enough to keep the boat from capsizing as you struggle to get on board… finally you’ve reached safety and the two of you take off to harbor…

…did you “saved” yourself?

Maran atha!

Angel
 
NoelFitz said:
JCrichton

You wrote:
.…problem with your reply is that you’ve taken the argument to a different level… when did I infer Baptism?

I was thinking about
‘when we take a shower our body is cleansed from the day’s work… did we clean ourselves or did the water cleansed us?’

Thank you for your contining patience.

You have claimed before that I get/am confused.

I admit guilty as charged.
Click to expand...
Hi, Noel!

…please, don’t misunderstand me… it is about your arguments (presentations); it seems to me that you argue both for and against the topics you present… and in the above example, your switched gears…

What I meant to convey is that while taking a shower cleanses us of the day’s burden/dirt/perspiration… it is a combination of two agents: a) our actual involvement in the procedure, and b) the water which is used to cleanse us…

…even body-wash or soap does not cleanse since we would be in a pretty uncomfortable state if we do not remove the abrasive cleansing agent with water… and, if we do not use water but simply go through the motion of a wipe down, our pores, toes, hair and other particular would not be cleansed properly… we depend upon the immersion/pouring of the water to remove the excesses that have accumulated on our bodies…

…so while it may seem that we are the actual agents of our own cleansing, the reality is that the water we use is what actually cleanses us.

…now, replace “water” with “God’s Salvific Plan.”

…yes, we have to collaborate with it… but, no, without it we cannot “Save” (cleanse) ourselves!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Yes - choosing to just stay in bed with the full knowledge and complete consent - instead of going to Sunday Mass - yes is the choice of a mortal sin sure. And yes to choose to respond to God and by the grace of God choose the good of going to Mass that is a good act.

But cannot “save oneself”. One can yes choose hell - send oneself to hell - but one cannot “save oneself”.

It is Jesus Christ the Lord who saves us.

I do not save myself. He saves me. Of course after say the age of reason I am involved - but not in the way that “I save myself”. I must yes give my yes - but this is still by grace - and it is not my yes that saves me. If I fall into a mortal sin I am to get to confession - and confess (which happens by the help of grace already) - but it is not that “I save myself”. But he whose blood washes away my sin and gives me true life.
 
The main point here for me is that while we cannot possibly save ourselves, we can still say “no” to salvation. Without the Savior throwing the life preserver we will assuredly drown. But if we don’t grab hold, and then keep holding on, we’ll drown then as well. God seeks and covets our participation, to the extent we’re able, even though He doesn’t need it. He draws, but never forces.

This is because He’s endeavoring to produce something greater in His creation, greater beings because they will rightly, as opposed to Adam’s original choice, as part of His work of perfecting them.
 
"Saint Paul helps us to enter into this reality when he writes: “Man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved” (Rom 10:10).The heart indicates that the first act by which one comes to faith is God’s gift and the action of grace which acts and transforms the person deep within.

The example of Lydia is particularly eloquent in this regard. Saint Luke recounts that, while he was at Philippi, Paul went on the Sabbath to proclaim the Gospel to some women; among them was Lydia and “the Lord opened her heart to give heed to what was said by Paul” (Acts 16:14)."

~ Pope Benedict XVI Porta Fidei

w2.vatican.va/content/vatican/it.html

Faith and Baptism…yes for an adult such involves the person their “I” - the person though does not save themselves…such is “God’s gift and the action of grace”.

Confession too is the action of God upon the soul …absolving their sins…restoring life. One does not “save oneself”…does not move from a state of mortal sin to a state of life…
 
peter26 said:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

Salvation has nothing to do with what you do, other than believe. God gives you grace and you respond to it by believing. You do not save yourself.
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:tsktsk:

I will refer you to Matthew 25 as a reminder of the role “what we do” plays in our salvation.
 
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