We Still Pray for Heretics, Schismatics and the Conversion of the Jews

[newyorkcatholic]

The reason that I started this thread was that I found it interesting that one portion of the Church does not use that language while another portion does.

Does anyone else find that interesting?

Very, very interesting.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

The reason that I started this thread was that I found it interesting that one portion of the Church does not use that language while another portion does.

Does anyone else find that interesting?

I find it interesting. As a matter of fact, I attended on OF yesterday and for another reason began to compare translations this morning between my Baronius Press 1962 missal, a 1956 St. Andrews Missal and my 3rd edition of OF missal. After that I was thinking the same thing on how we don’t use the terms heretics or schismatics anymore and it is almost as if are prayers are more or less saying we hope they find God on the path they are on and instead of them being united under Holy Mother Church as we used to, we pray that we are united in integrity of faith.

My 1956 St. Andrews Missal does say “faithless Jews.” I am not sure if that answers another question but also my Baronius press missal says the same as yours.

I was just thinking this morning we should be acknowledging that there are heretics and schismatics out there and need to pray for them to come into Holy Mother Church.

IMHO we get caught up in the fact that most protestants are ignorant of the truth because they weren’t the ones who really left but shouldn’t we be praying for them to come to the full knowledge of the truth. Taking for granted that someone is okay because they call themselves a Christian is very dangerous.

I was protestant for many years too and didn’t know the Catholic church, I loved the Lord but I also can look back and see how confused I was due to all the different theologies out there and I am so grateful to the people who prayed me home.

 

[TrueLight]

IMHO we get caught up in the fact that most protestants are ignorant of the truth because they weren’t the ones who really left but shouldn’t we be praying for them to come to the full knowledge of the truth. Taking for granted that someone is okay because they call themselves a Christian is very dangerous.

I was protestant for many years too and didn’t know the Catholic church, I loved the Lord but I also can look back and see how confused I was due to all the different theologies out there and I am so grateful to the people who prayed me home.

Hmm. Good point.

 

[Lifesong]

Our Good Friday service which was I assume the ordinary form (I am not officially Catholic until tonight so I am learning) actually had what looked like a disclaimer from the USCCB about the whole Jewish issue.

Here is the statement

old.usccb.org/comm/archives/2008/08-016.shtml

Anyway, as a former Methodist who was like Saul of Tarsus most of my life about the Catholic Church married to a fallen away Catholic who was at one point pretty lost I would like to think like the apostle Paul the scales fell off of my eyes And I do beleive it was the Holy Spirit- all I knew last year or so was that as I became a more committed Christian in my Methodist Church my husband and I would never be one unless I understood where he came from. So began the study about the Church and the Holy Spirit kicked in the door!

Blessings,

Val

Val

 

[TrueLight]

Our Good Friday service which was I assume the ordinary form (I am not officially Catholic until tonight so I am learning) actually had what looked like a disclaimer from the USCCB about the whole Jewish issue.

Here is the statement

old.usccb.org/comm/archives/2008/08-016.shtml

Thanks for this link.

"The Holy Father has heard with appreciation the concerns of the Jewish community that the prayers of Good Friday should reflect the relationship between Jews and the Church put forward in Nostra Aetate, and implemented by the late Pope John Paul II.

I’m not sure why our prayers should be dictated by non-Catholics.

"The Holy Father has chosen to omit from his revision any language from the various editions of the (Latin) Missal of 1962 that have long been associated with negative images of Jews. For example, there are no references to the ‘blindness of the Jews,’ to the ‘lifting of a veil from their heart,’ or to their ‘being pulled from darkness.’

So are any of the phrases above incorrect? Is it not true that the Messiah, Jesus Christ was sent to the Jews and “his own received him not?”. Did they not reject him because they were blind to the truth as all unbelievers are and are we not all in darkness before understanding the truth?

Everyone is different, but frankly what would make me curious about the faith is unabashed teaching. I would say to myself, “What makes them think they are right” and I would want to find out more.

One reason that I never really explored the Catholic church because I didn’t know anyone who seriously practiced their faith who made me curious enough to explore more.

 

[Rich_C]

Thanks for this link. So are any of the phrases below incorrect? Is it not true that the Messiah, Jesus Christ was sent to the Jews and “his own received him not?”. Did they not reject him because they were blind to the truth as all unbelievers are and are we not all in darkness before understanding the truth?

I hope it’s not about political correctness.

I hope so, too. In any case, we ought to pray for the Holy Father daily, because undoubtedly he is under assault every day, being tempted to compromise with the world just as we are tempted, but more so.

 

[TimothyH]

Tim, your 1970 missal has the 1970 Good Friday collects. It’s a different prayer even in the original Latin, not a difference in translation.

That said, I believe that after issuing SP, the Holy Father also composed a new Good Friday prayer for the Jews to replace the 1962 one (which was already toned down from the 1955). Angelus Press is connected to SSPX and may not include the 2007 Good Friday prayer (neither does my 1962 missal, being 50 years old). So, depending on what missal people have, three different Good Friday prayers may have been read last night (although perhaps only two were actually said if it was a diocesan Mass).

Yes, interesting. That would explain much.

I do see the prayers as unnecessarily harsh. We can pray that people come to the fullness of truth without language that makes them out to be our enemies. There just isn’t need for language like that any longer.

-Tim-

 

[TrueLight]

I hope so, too. In any case, we ought to pray for the Holy Father daily, because undoubtedly he is under assault every day, being tempted to compromise with the world just as we are tempted, but more so.

Amen!

 

[markomalley]

Indeed the JWs are not Christians (nor are the Unitarians). However Catholics who do join them are indeed becoming heretics.

But that would be covered in the OF by the prayer for those who don’t believe in Christ (the 7th intention in the OF), because the JWs do deny the divinity of Christ, and in the EF, it would be proper to include them in the prayer for heretics.

Actually, I think a better (legal) term would be apostates.

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

Denial of the Blessed Trinity sounds like repudiation to me.

 

[newyorkcatholic]

Actually, I think a better (legal) term would be apostates.

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

Denial of the Blessed Trinity sounds like repudiation to me.

Only if they once believed it. That’s repudiation.

So a Christian (heretic or schismatic or Catholic) who then becomes a non-Christian (JW or Mormon or Muslim or Hindu) is an apostate.

Julian the Apostate was a Christian but then returned to paganism (and even was baptized in bull’s blood as a sort of anti-baptism, or so I’ve read.)

 

[markomalley]

Since Pope Paul VI stated afterward that Vatican II was merely a pastoral council, I took its ecumenical statements to be an expression of charity and hope for new and improved relationships, but not a change in doctrine.

Therefore, when I read that we hope for the salvation of non-Catholics, I read it in the traditional sense espoused before Vatican II. To the best of my understanding, which is incomplete that means that only because ignorance can mitigate people’s responsibility for their sins can we hope for the salvation of non-Christians, if they try to act according to natural law and God’s grace as best they know how. For non-Catholic Christians, their baptism redeems them but they have no means for future forgiveness of sin except perfect contrition. Basically, it is much harder to reach heaven if one isn’t Catholic, because the Church’s doctrines and most of all the sacraments are a sinner’s best hope.

Vatican II did not originate the idea of the possibility of a non-Catholic being saved.

Please note the words of Pius IX:

There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace

Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, 7

The idea of “separated brethren” has its origins from Pius XII:

1. Likewise, We must earnestly desire that this united prayer may embrace in the same ardent charity both those who, not yet enlightened by the truth of the Gospel, are still without the fold of the Church, and those who, on account of regrettable schism, are separated from Us, who though unworthy, represent the person of Jesus Christ on earth. Let us then reecho that divine prayer of our Savior to the heavenly Father: “That they all may be one, as thou Father in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.” [193]
2. As you know, Venerable Brethren, from the very beginning of Our Pontificate, We have committed to the protection and guidance of heaven those who do not belong to the visible Body of the Catholic Church, solemnly declaring that after the example of the Good Shepherd We desire nothing more ardently than that they may have life and have it more abundantly. [194] Imploring the prayers of the whole Church We wish to repeat this solemn declaration in this Encyclical Letter in which We have proclaimed the praises of the “great and glorious Body of Christ,” [195] and from a heart overflowing with love We ask each and every one of them to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation. [196] For even though by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer, they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church. Therefore may they enter into Catholic unity and, joined with Us in the one, organic God of Jesus Christ, may they together with us run on to the one Head in the Society of glorious love. [197] Persevering in prayer to the Spirit of love and truth, We wait for them with open and outstretched arms to come not to a stranger’s house, but to their own, their father’s home.
   
   Mystici Corporis Christi​

 

[hazcompat]

Second reading
From an ancient homily on Holy Saturday
The Lord descends into hell

Something strange is happening—there is a great silence on earth today, a great silence and stillness. The whole earth keeps silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. God has died in the flesh and hell trembles with fear.

He has gone to search for our first parent, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow the captives Adam and Eve, he who is both God and the son of Eve. The Lord approached them bearing the cross, the weapon that had won him the victory. At the sight of him Adam, the first man he had created, struck his breast in terror and cried out to everyone: “My Lord be with you all.” Christ answered him: “And with your spirit.” He took him by the hand and raised him up, saying: “Awake, O sleeper, and rise from the dead, and Christ will give you light.”

I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. Out of love for you and for your descendants I now by my own authority command all who are held in bondage to come forth, all who are in darkness to be enlightened, all who are sleeping to arise. I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be held a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead. Rise up, work of my hands, you who were created in my image. Rise, let us leave this place, for you are in me and I am in you; together we form only one person and we cannot be separated.

For your sake I, your God, became your son; I, the Lord, took the form of a slave; I, whose home is above the heavens, descended to the earth and beneath the earth. For your sake, for the sake of man, I became like a man without help, free among the dead. For the sake of you, who left a garden, I was betrayed to the Jews in a garden, and I was crucified in a garden.

See on my face the spittle I received in order to restore to you the life I once breathed into you. See there the marks of the blows I received in order to refashion your warped nature in my image. On my back see the marks of the scourging I endured to remove the burden of sin that weighs upon your back. See my hands, nailed firmly to a tree, for you who once wickedly stretched out your hand to a tree.

I slept on the cross and a sword pierced my side for you who slept in paradise and brought forth Eve from your side. My side has healed the pain in yours. My sleep will rouse you from your sleep in hell. The sword that pierced me has sheathed the sword that was turned against you.

Rise, let us leave this place. The enemy led you out of the earthly paradise. I will not restore you to that paradise, but I will enthrone you in heaven. I forbade you the tree that was only a symbol of life, but see, I who am life itself am now one with you. I appointed cherubim to guard you as slaves are guarded, but now I make them worship you as God. The throne formed by cherubim awaits you, its bearers swift and eager. The bridal chamber is adorned, the banquet is ready, the eternal dwelling places are prepared, the treasure houses of all good things lie open. The kingdom of heaven has been prepared for you from all eternity.

 

[markomalley]

Only if they once believed it. That’s repudiation.

Exactly.

 

[Matt_V]

Tim, your 1970 missal has the 1970 Good Friday collects. It’s a different prayer even in the original Latin, not a difference in translation.

That said, I believe that after issuing SP, the Holy Father also composed a new Good Friday prayer for the Jews to replace the 1962 one (which was already toned down from the 1955). Angelus Press is connected to SSPX and may not include the 2007 Good Friday prayer (neither does my 1962 missal, being 50 years old). So, depending on what missal people have, three different Good Friday prayers may have been read last night (although perhaps only two were actually said if it was a diocesan Mass).

My Baronius Missal (1962) - published 2008, the Summorum Pontificum Edition - had a loose leaf inserted with the Holy Father’s new prayer regarding the Jews.

However when I attended the Good Friday Liturgy at an FSSP parish in 2009, they prayed the 1962 prayer. I never ascertained whether it was by accident or design.

 

[InnocentFortune]

It would be more accurate to refer to them as our separated brethren, which is what in fact they are.

A Protestant, brought up Protestant, and doing his or her best to conform to Christ’s teaching, isn’t a heretic or schismatic, but rather a Christian missing the fullness of Truth. The Church doesn’t teach that they’re automatically damned.

The sin, was the rupture, and for the most part that goes back several hundred years. Belonging to a Protestant denomination isn’t, in itself, sinful.

That’s absurd. You have to admit that a protestant is at least a material heretic even if he is invincibly ignorant (which is a long shot today in the information age). It is true that the rupture 500 years ago is not every protestant’s sin today. But every protestant is guilty of persisting in that same rupture if he refuses to go to the catholic parish in his town today.

 

[Melchior_1]

Regarding the prayer for the Jews, we should bear in mind a couple of items:

1. Our current Pope has spent a lot of effort into Catholic/Jewish relations. It should not come as any surprise that some of the language in the prayer has become more subtle and charitable, with much of the original meaning still intact.
2. Perhaps after six million Jews died, the Church realized it could get the same point across in a more charitable fashion.

 

[RyanBlack]

That’s absurd. You have to admit that a protestant is at least a material heretic even if he is invincibly ignorant (which is a long shot today in the information age). It is true that the rupture 500 years ago is not every protestant’s sin today. But every protestant is guilty of persisting in that same rupture if he refuses to go to the catholic parish in his town today.

Then the Catechism itself is absurd, because what OraLabora wrote is based in the Catechism. It states in paragraphs 818-819,

“However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church. Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements. Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to Catholic unity.”

 

[Br_Mark]

“And they will know we are Christians by our love”

He has risen. He has risen indeed.

Happy Easter!

Br Mark osb

 

[InnocentFortune]

Then the Catechism itself is absurd, because what OraLabora wrote is based in the Catechism. It states in paragraphs 818-819,

“However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church. Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements. Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to Catholic unity.”

Yes the Catechism is absurd. It stands in direct contrast Pope Eugene’s Bull…

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

The teachings are contradictory and in compatible. The CCC isn’t infallible. The pope is.

 

[TimothyH]

“And they will know we are Christians by our love”

He has risen. He has risen indeed.

Happy Easter!

Br Mark osb

Ten words captured the entire Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Reading the Bible and praying seven hours a day tends to have this effect.

Thank you Brother Mark. Happy Easter to you and all your Brothers.

-Tim-