We Still Pray for Heretics, Schismatics and the Conversion of the Jews

[joanofarc2008]

Ten words captured the entire Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Reading the Bible and praying seven hours a day tends to have this effect.

Thank you Brother Mark. Happy Easter to you and all your Brothers.

-Tim-

 

[EcceAgnusDei]

I’m not sure why our prayers should be dictated by non-Catholics.

Exactly, TrueLight! Our prayers shouldn’t. Our prayers should be dictated by Truth, by Tradition, by God. By definition, non-Catholics do not have the fullness of any of those, so they should not dictate to us how we should pray. Remember, lex orandi lex credendi. The law of prayer is the law of belief. The way we pray dictates how we believe (and vice versa). If we change our prayers to “accommodate” those who do not believe the truth, then we will end up not believing the truth. It is so very important that our prayers (of which the Mass is the highest one) be dictated solely by truth, so that we will believe the truth. Even if the truth is not “PC” or whatever. It is the truth, and it is the truth that will set us free.

• PAX

 

[joanofarc2008]

Exactly, TrueLight! Our prayers shouldn’t. Our prayers should be dictated by Truth, by Tradition, by God. By definition, non-Catholics do not have the fullness of any of those, so they should not dictate to us how we should pray. Remember, lex orandi lex credendi. The law of prayer is the law of belief. The way we pray dictates how we believe (and vice versa). If we change our prayers to “accommodate” those who do not believe the truth, then we will end up not believing the truth. It is so very important that our prayers (of which the Mass is the highest one) be dictated solely by truth, so that we will believe the truth. Even if the truth is not “PC” or whatever. It is the truth, and it is the truth that will set us free.

• PAX

However Christ also taught us about charity and love. Namecalling in prayer is not either.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

Exactly, TrueLight! Our prayers shouldn’t. Our prayers should be dictated by Truth, by Tradition, by God. By definition, non-Catholics do not have the fullness of any of those, so they should not dictate to us how we should pray. Remember, lex orandi lex credendi. The law of prayer is the law of belief. The way we pray dictates how we believe (and vice versa). If we change our prayers to “accommodate” those who do not believe the truth, then we will end up not believing the truth. It is so very important that our prayers (of which the Mass is the highest one) be dictated solely by truth, so that we will believe the truth. Even if the truth is not “PC” or whatever. It is the truth, and it is the truth that will set us free.

• PAX

That is so true EcceAgnusDei. It seems as though we sometimes try way to hard to be PC, so as not to offend anyone, even in our prayers but that is not really fair to those that need our prayers.

You’re right, too if we accommodate our prayers how many are going to end up not believing the truth.

 

[Lujack]

Regarding the prayer for the Jews, we should bear in mind a couple of items:

1. Our current Pope has spent a lot of effort into Catholic/Jewish relations. It should not come as any surprise that some of the language in the prayer has become more subtle and charitable, with much of the original meaning still intact.
2. Perhaps after six million Jews died, the Church realized it could get the same point across in a more charitable fashion.

Indeed. Catholics had a real anti-semitism problem for a long time; my father frequently heard the term “Christkiller” growing up, ugly as it is. The Church was rIghtly concerned about reducing this tendency among us.

 

[CB_Catholic]

Everyone seems so concerned about praying for the Jews and the Protestants and the terms used, etc. but it seems we are forgetting that there are schismatics and heretics to this very day among us, claiming to be Catholic and claiming to have the fullness of truth. I am not speaking of the Orthodox here, either, I am speaking of such groups as the sedevacantists. These are the ones who have abandoned the Barque of Peter, claiming the See is vacant, that there is no legitimate Pope. This is both heresy and schism, and we need to pray mightily for them to return to the fold. Most of these people willingly separated themselves from the Church. This is a sensitive topic, I realize, on CAF, but it seems we need to be upfront about them and they need our prayers perhaps even more than those who through no fault of their own have been separated from us by the actions of their ancestors.

And we need to remember that Jesus is Lord and the salvation of souls is in His hands. We just need to pray, He will act as He sees fit, not as we see.

 

[Melchior_1]

It is not necessarily other religions which are dictating things, but rather Charity. “You’re wrong and you’re going to Hell” might not win many converts, people will simply tune you out. Approaching things with something like “we have some common elements, perhaps we should engage in dialogue” and engaging people in relational ministry might bear better fruits.

If you can say the same thing without making someone feel terrible or turning them off of the message, why not say it in that fashion?

 

[mattkubes]

I am not speaking of the Orthodox here, either, I am speaking of such groups as the sedevacantists. These are the ones who have abandoned the Barque of Peter, claiming the See is vacant, that there is no legitimate Pope. This is both heresy and schism, and we need to pray mightily for them to return to the fold. Most of these people willingly separated themselves from the Church.

My goodness, with the definitions and exceptions to those definitions that are floating around on CAF, I don’t see how even sedevacantists could be considered guilty of heresy or schism. They obviously aren’t knowingly embracing either - they’re subjectively convinced that they’re doing the right thing, tear, sob, etc.

Consistency? Nah!

ETA: for the record, I agree with the sentiment of your post, just not a good chunk of the rest of this thread.

 

[OraLabora]

It is not necessarily other religions which are dictating things, but rather Charity. “You’re wrong and you’re going to Hell” might not win many converts, people will simply tune you out. Approaching things with something like “we have some common elements, perhaps we should engage in dialogue” and engaging people in relational ministry might bear better fruits.

If you can say the same thing without making someone feel terrible or turning them off of the message, why not say it in that fashion?

Indeed. In fact I suspect if one is uncharitable and drives someone away from the Church, that person will have much to answer for on judgement day.

 

[RyanBlack]

Yes the Catechism is absurd. It stands in direct contrast Pope Eugene’s Bull…

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

The teachings are contradictory and in compatible. The CCC isn’t infallible. The pope is.

And who promulgated the CCC?

 

[EcceAgnusDei]

And who promulgated the CCC?

The Pope did not invoke infallibility when he promulgated the CCC.

(And the imprimatur is from Cardinal Ratzinger).

• PAX

 

[RyanBlack]

Yes the Catechism is absurd. It stands in direct contrast Pope Eugene’s Bull…

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

The teachings are contradictory and in compatible. The CCC isn’t infallible. The pope is.

Then are the teachings of the Second Vatican Council also absurd, since the teachings I referenced from sections 818 and 819 of the CCC are drawn from the teachings of Vatican II? Also, were the teachings of Pope John Paul II, who declared the CCC to be a “sure norm for teaching the faith” absurd?

 

[RyanBlack]

The Pope did not invoke infallibility when he promulgated the CCC.

(And the imprimatur is from Cardinal Ratzinger).

• PAX

So we are free to reject portions we don’t like as absurd, since the Pope did not invoke infallibility? Furthemore, the portions I have referenced, which were rejected as “absurd,” are drawn directly from the teachings of the Second Vatican Council. Also, Pope John Paul II, in his “Apostolic Constitution on the Publication of the Catechism of the Catholic Church,” wrote of the CCC, “I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion.”

 

[ProVobis]

Then are the teachings of the Second Vatican Council also absurd, since the teachings I referenced from sections 818 and 819 of the CCC are drawn from the teachings of Vatican II?

The teachings I will accept; it’s the translations and interpretations, especially into English, that leave me a little worried.

 

[EcceAgnusDei]

So we are free to reject portions we don’t like as absurd, since the Pope did not invoke infallibility? Furthemore, the portions I have referenced, which were rejected as “absurd,” are drawn directly from the teachings of the Second Vatican Council.

I didn’t say it was absurd. I simply said it wasn’t infallible.

• PAX

 

[RyanBlack]

I didn’t say it was absurd. I simply said it wasn’t infallible.

• PAX

I’m not accusing you of saying it was absurd. However, the issue of infallibility was raised by another poster who has accused it of being absurd.

 

[porthos11]

It seems no one has mentioned the distinction between material and formal heresy and schism. Insofar as we aren’t dealing with Catholics who left the church, but people of good faith born into their respective communities:

Protestants are material heretics, since they hold on to heretical doctrines.
The Eastern Orthodox and Oriental orthodox are material schismatics, as they are not in communion with the see of Peter.

However, none of them could be charged as formal heretics and schismatics (except again, former Catholics) and cannot be subjected to ecclesiastical penalty.

These are the heretics and schismatics to which the 1962 prayers refer. The language has been softened in the Ordinary Form, but heretics and schismatics they remain, even if material and not formal. It’s formal heresy and schism that is subject to ecclesiastical penalty.

 

[TrueLight]

Can we please not let this get derailed into a discussion over the infallibility of the CCC? I think that would do better in its own thread.

So anyway, I’d like to comment on the question of charity as it regards the use of the terms heretics and schismatics and even the term conversion when it comes to the Jewish people.

I’m sure there were people who were anti-semetic or cruel in other ways, but didn’t the Church itself institute the prayers out of charity? Did they not come about because of the concern over souls? And are we saying the Church was uncharitable during all the years those prayers were being said?

Also, if a Mormon says I am a heretic, I wouldn’t get mad. I am a heretic as it concerns their faith. I don’t believe what they believe.

 

[RyanBlack]

Can we please not let this get derailed into a discussion over the infallibility of the CCC? I think that would do better in its own thread.

So anyway, I’d like to comment on the question of charity as it regards the use of the terms heretics and schismatics and even the term conversion when it comes to the Jewish people.

I’m sure there were people who were anti-semetic or cruel in other ways, but didn’t the Church itself institute the prayers out of charity? Did they not come about because of the concern over souls? And are we saying the Church was uncharitable during all the years those prayers were being said?

Also, if a Mormon says I am a heretic, I wouldn’t get mad. I am a heretic as it concerns their faith. I don’t believe what they believe.

Sure, the Church adopted these prayers out of concern for souls.

However, the terms “heretic” and “schismatic” might not be particularly prudent terms to use, if one truly desires the reconcilation of all Christians to the Catholic Church. I was raised Southern Baptist. Prior to becoming Catholic, I was chrismated in the Orthodox Church. Being labeled a heretic or schismatic would have never served to draw me to the Catholic Church.

 

[Rich_C]

Vatican II did not originate the idea of the possibility of a non-Catholic being saved.

Please note the words of Pius IX:

There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace

Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, 7

The idea of “separated brethren” has its origins from Pius XII:

1. Likewise, We must earnestly desire that this united prayer may embrace in the same ardent charity both those who, not yet enlightened by the truth of the Gospel, are still without the fold of the Church, and those who, on account of regrettable schism, are separated from Us, who though unworthy, represent the person of Jesus Christ on earth. Let us then reecho that divine prayer of our Savior to the heavenly Father: “That they all may be one, as thou Father in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.” [193]
2. As you know, Venerable Brethren, from the very beginning of Our Pontificate, We have committed to the protection and guidance of heaven those who do not belong to the visible Body of the Catholic Church, solemnly declaring that after the example of the Good Shepherd We desire nothing more ardently than that they may have life and have it more abundantly. [194] Imploring the prayers of the whole Church We wish to repeat this solemn declaration in this Encyclical Letter in which We have proclaimed the praises of the “great and glorious Body of Christ,” [195] and from a heart overflowing with love We ask each and every one of them to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation. [196] For even though by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer, they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church. Therefore may they enter into Catholic unity and, joined with Us in the one, organic God of Jesus Christ, may they together with us run on to the one Head in the Society of glorious love. [197] Persevering in prayer to the Spirit of love and truth, We wait for them with open and outstretched arms to come not to a stranger’s house, but to their own, their father’s home.
   
   Mystici Corporis Christi​

Good citation, thanks.