We were surprised by "feel" of SSPX chapel

[D0UBTFIRE]

To clarify, I didn’t stay for the whole mass because I had to be at my regular one at 10am. And I HAD to be there because I’m in RCIA and I’m getting baptized on Saturday and our RCIA class meets during the 10am mass.

Someone mentioned something about my religion status saying “unsure”. I don’t know if it was intended but those comments came off very negatively. I didn’t think that it was necesary to explain that when I joined this forum I was in fact unsure about my religion, and that now I’m formally converting to Catholicism and that I simply haven’t bothered to update my profile because I didn’t think of it.

I am a woman. (Someone refered to me as “he” or “him”)

Someone mentioned going somewhere and getting what you expect, but like i said, I expected to like it, I mean really I thought I would love it, and I simply didn’t. Someone else said maybe it had something to do with the fact that I didn’t know anyone there, but I’ve visited many Catholic churches where I don’t know anyone and I haven’t experienced that emptiness.

Perhaps “empty” isn’t a good work to describe it, but I don’t know of a better one. My fiance put it this way: it felt like everyone there was “playing” church, and not actually at church. Really, it had more of a fundamentalist protestant feel to me than anything else. Maybe it was the architecture - I frankly don’t know. I was just curious if anyone had experienced anything similar.

 

[MikeDunphy]

When you said “empty”, I thought you were noticing the same sort of forlorn feeling I thought I felt one time when I visited an independent chapel. But the parishioners there didn’t seem like they were playing at worship; they seemed sincere, like they really were trying to honor God – maybe trying too hard, if that makes any sense. I also thought they seemed cut off, betrayed, and a little desperate.

But our perceptions are colored by our own background and biases, and this sort of vague impression from a brief visit or two cannot be completely trusted. I have a good friend who has accompanied me to Saint John Cantius in Chicago, where she refused to receive Holy Communion because the Mass seemed “fake” to her. Now those same Masses seemed more solidly real to me than anything I have attended at her mildly liberal home parish, so at least one of us has flawed perceptions.

What can I say? God gave you a heart and head; you’ll need to use both together to form an accurate opinion of the parish you visited. * I* think you don’t think you have enough experience with the chapel in question to draw any conclusions, but it’s not my call. Just try to find the place where you’ll best honor and serve God.

Perhaps “empty” isn’t a good work to describe it, but I don’t know of a better one. My fiance put it this way: it felt like everyone there was “playing” church, and not actually at church. Really, it had more of a fundamentalist protestant feel to me than anything else. Maybe it was the architecture - I frankly don’t know. I was just curious if anyone had experienced anything similar.

 

[ChurchTorch]

My experience in an SSPX chapel was not one of emptiness. It was entirely a sense of overt anger. The priest, in his homily, called the OF an “abomination” twice. Their whole rational for being seemed to be the TLM vs. the NO (yes, I know there’s more to it). Also, I didn’t find it any more reverent than MOST (not all) OF Masses I’ve attended. Indeed, the choir was still chanting the Sanctus and the priest had sped on and reached the consecration. When the Roman Canon is used in my parish, we get to hear the whole of it.

I definitely feel that sense of “overt anger” when I visit the local EF on Sundays. I’ve come to feel badly for that group though. I believe that perceptible feeling keeps people away and the group is struggling.

As far as the nasty OF Mass slur. I’d walk-out if a priest actually uttered such a lie from the ambo. It would also make me wonder if he was indeed a Catholic priest. That’s terribly poor form.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Do you usually attend an OF Mass? It is proper in the OF for the Canon to be said outloud.
In case you didn’t know, in the EF, the Canon is said silently (the priest uses a very low whisper). The only words you might hear are nobis quoque peccatoribus and the per omnia saecula saeculorum just before the Amen. When the priest reaches the end fo the preface, the choir starts singing the Sanctus, and the priest says it before immediately beginning the Canon. If it is a long version of the Santus, the choir needs to stop before the consecration of the host (bread) and finish it after the consecration of the wine.

Just as an additional note of interest, the only time you hear the entire Canon in the EF is at the ordination of priests. The bishop says it aloud so the newly ordained can hear and say it with him. That is as close as you get to concelebration in the EF.

My point is that , although I do not like it, it is appropriate for me to hear the Canon or other Eucharistic Prayer aloud if I attend an OF Mass. It may not be liked, but it is appropriate to not hear the Canon if one is attending an EF Mass.

Yes, I am aware of these things. My comment related more to the choir still being at the Gloria and the priest at the Consecration. That’s the kind of thing, in my opinion, that needed reforming.

 

[Joe_5859]

To clarify, I didn’t stay for the whole mass because I had to be at my regular one at 10am. And I HAD to be there because I’m in RCIA and I’m getting baptized on Saturday and our RCIA class meets during the 10am mass.

Someone mentioned something about my religion status saying “unsure”. I don’t know if it was intended but those comments came off very negatively. I didn’t think that it was necesary to explain that when I joined this forum I was in fact unsure about my religion, and that now I’m formally converting to Catholicism and that I simply haven’t bothered to update my profile because I didn’t think of it.

I am a woman. (Someone refered to me as “he” or “him”)

Someone mentioned going somewhere and getting what you expect, but like i said, I expected to like it, I mean really I thought I would love it, and I simply didn’t. Someone else said maybe it had something to do with the fact that I didn’t know anyone there, but I’ve visited many Catholic churches where I don’t know anyone and I haven’t experienced that emptiness.

Perhaps “empty” isn’t a good work to describe it, but I don’t know of a better one. My fiance put it this way: it felt like everyone there was “playing” church, and not actually at church. Really, it had more of a fundamentalist protestant feel to me than anything else. Maybe it was the architecture - I frankly don’t know. I was just curious if anyone had experienced anything similar.

Weclome home!

I think often it is tempting for many of us to try to take someone else’s experience and cram it into our own way of looking at things. I know I do it all the time. Hence the tendency to overlook details such as the fact that you said you thought you would like it.

I’ve never been to an SSPX chapel (and have no idea where the closest one to me is even located) so I can’t really comment on your experience. I just wanted to pop in and wish you a happy Holy Week!

 

[Hesychios]

I felt that emptiness too when I was at St. Procopius Benedictine Abbey in Chicago. Of course the “emptiness” was probably an internal reflection of the fact that the Abbey chapel was quite literally empty. Just a vast expanse of brick with a wooden “table” in the middle.

To each their own, right?

I know this place. I was with the Benedictine oblates there.

Your assessment of the Abbey church is accurate (although on Sundays they can draw a sizable crowd).

 

[Hesychios]

On Palm Sunday we stopped by the local SSPX chapel to see things there firsthand. We didn’t realize the mass was going to take so long compared to the one we regularly attend (we’re just dumb converts lol) so it started at 8:30 and we thought we’d have enough time to leave from there when it finished which we thought would be 9:30 and make it to the 10am mass we go to usually. Anyway, my point is we had to leave early. They really weren’t planning on getting done until 10:30!

Anyway, all we got to see was the priest enter and give announcments and then they started to chant and have people go to the front to get the palms and walk outside for the procession…we had to leave at this point (the announcents took forever and i think they also started late!). So we didn’t actually get to see the mass, which is what we had gone there for in the first place. This might have been the reason why things seemed so strange. BUT…they definitly seemed strange. Now, I wasn’t expecting that at all. I thought it would have been like the TLM that I’ve attended before. I was expecting to like it. But there is something we can’t quite describe about the chapel - it just felt empty. There was an emptiness to it compared to our usual Church and all the other Catholic Churches we’ve ever been to. I don’t mean that there was no one there. They were full of people. And the TLM at the Catholic Church we’ve gone to is usually empty of people (about 20 ppl) but you don’t feel that “emptiness” while your there. Versus this SSPX Chapel was smaller than the church I’m talking about but probably had 100+ people. And I know that even though it is illicit, that the Eucharist is valid, so I’m not saying that I’m thinking that the Real Presence was not there…i have no idea how to describe it though…it was just not what I expected and quite strange. What was even stranger about it is that it reminded me of my Jehovah’s Witness days. It kinda felt cult-like. To me it felt more like a Kingdom Hall than a Catholic Church. Why on earth would that be??? Has anyone had a similar experience? Honestly, I really expected to like it! Granted, I will give it another try on another day that I don’t have to leave early now that I know that mass there will take longer than i expected…

When I visited the SSPX in my area many years ago I was put off by it. I had a similar reaction to yours.

I also recall a sense of deep bitterness among the laity. The whole atmosphere was effected by it. This was when the indult Masses were just getting going around Chicago and there was a lot of invective about “bishops who cannot be trusted”.

Now of course, many years have passed and I am sure many of those people have gone on to God. Most of the parishioners today would have been born years after the liturgical reform movement and would not have the same nostalgia for the ‘old Mass’, but would be discovering it new for themselves, so I have no idea whether one would get the same feeling today.

 

[pnewton]

I will not guess the cause of your subjective feelings. I try not to guess why any women feel the way they do. Yet I realize that some people respond to God more with their heart than their head. That is fine. God works in us with where we are. This is the basis or Sacramental Theology. Therefore, if God leads you to feel empty in this Chapel, perhaps it is for a reason.

 

[Triumpha]

It was Palm Sunday, and the chapel was doing all of the traditional rites. You could have stayed and fulfilled your obligation, and you would have experienced the Pre-VII Palm Sunday way of doing things, as every parish would have done then.

You went to see, and left before giving it a chance.

Quite.

Also, the title of this thread is “We were surprised…” I don’t think you were surprised at all. That was how you wanted to feel about it, and you weren’t willing to feel any other way.

 

[D0UBTFIRE]

Quite.

Also, the title of this thread is “We were surprised…” I don’t think you were surprised at all. That was how you wanted to feel about it, and you weren’t willing to feel any other way.

The most charitable thing I can say is go back and read both of my posts where I clearly stated that I expected to like it.

 

[D0UBTFIRE]

When you said “empty”, I thought you were noticing the same sort of forlorn feeling I thought I felt one time when I visited an independent chapel. But the parishioners there didn’t seem like they were playing at worship; they seemed sincere, like they really were trying to honor God – maybe trying too hard, if that makes any sense. I also thought they seemed cut off, betrayed, and a little desperate.

But our perceptions are colored by our own background and biases, and this sort of vague impression from a brief visit or two cannot be completely trusted. I have a good friend who has accompanied me to Saint John Cantius in Chicago, where she refused to receive Holy Communion because the Mass seemed “fake” to her. Now those same Masses seemed more solidly real to me than anything I have attended at her mildly liberal home parish, so at least one of us has flawed perceptions.

MikeDunphy,
You used the perfect words for me to explain how I felt. It felt fake. The people were sincere, but I didn’t feel like I had gone to a mass. (Disclaimer: I know that i left early and that I didn’t get to see the whole thing - which is why I said I would go back and get another taste of it) The mass had “started” (I’m assuming what they did was the introit - with the chanting and all) but instead of mass, the priest went up to the podium and gave a looooong announcement. He talked about how the kids were going to be having a test after mass for first communion, I believe I recall him mentioning something about finances (haiti, new school, etc), he talked about the scandal and we need to keep the pope in our thoughts and prayers, he talked about how the procession was going to take place, he just talked and talked and talked, and I was under the impression that I was there to see a MASS. These type of long announcements are unheard of, even at my loony liberal Novus Ordo mass. This is why I think it felt more protestant. Because there wasn’t anything about it that resembled the liturgy that I’m familiar with - and I’m refering to the TLM. This parish seemed to be a congregation led by this priest and this priest alone, it had a very separatist feel to it, like he was there leader and they were his followers. The reason he seemed so “powerful” to me I guess is because he had the “power” to give such long announcements during the time he ought to have been following the liturgy. Now, i could be making a huge mistake, and such long announcements might be perfectly okay. But I simply had never seen this (except in protestant and Jehovahs witness churches where they don’t follow a liturgy). I felt like I was at a cult worship service and he was the cult leader.

 

[Onegin]

You too? I went with my wife and I felt empty there. (It’s actually in Lisle, Il, but it’s interesting. It’s next to the Illinois Benedictine College now.)

Yeah, I have some family members that literally live across the street in Naperville, so it was the convenient option that Sunday. In the past, I usually try to go to Sts Peter & Paul which, although slightly liberal, at least has a lovely Church to distract from it.

I know this place. I was with the Benedictine oblates there.

Your assessment of the Abbey church is accurate (although on Sundays they can draw a sizable crowd).

The chapel was fairly crowded, but I was referring mostly to the literal emptiness of the space as being just a giant expanse of brick.

I suppose that I was just kind of surprised since I always perceived the Benedictines to be a little less sparse… or an Abbey in general?

By the way, whomever mentioned St. John Cantius - that is a beautiful Church that has a wonderful TLM. Unfortunately, my short visits to the Chicago area seldom allow me to visit. I have also been to the Chicago SSPX which is quite large for Easter Vigil a few years back.

It was actually a bit terrifying, as we began the Vigil by standing outside in the dark on the steps whilst the Priest lighted the fire and a lot of people were driving past screaming obscenities (it was a bad neighbourhood, I think).

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

Yes, I am aware of these things. My comment related more to the choir still being at the Gloria and the priest at the Consecration. That’s the kind of thing, in my opinion, that needed reforming.

JKirk,

This is not unique to the SSPX. It is not even unique to the Extraordinary Form. Chanted High Mass is ordinarily composed o be lengthy enough that the last part of the Sanctus, beginning with the Benedictus continues to the Consecration. The priest was not speeding. You will observe the same thing at a Latin High Mass in the Ordinary Form. (There are a few around, and my daughter sings in one weekly. I didn’t answer yesterday because I wanted to be sure. She assured me that this is how it works.)

Even if you still perceive this to be not to your liking, I hope you can understand that the priest was doing what every priest is instructed to do for High Masses in both forms.

Thanks for your consideration.

Rory

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

MikeDunphy,
You used the perfect words for me to explain how I felt. It felt fake. The people were sincere, but I didn’t feel like I had gone to a mass. (Disclaimer: I know that i left early and that I didn’t get to see the whole thing - which is why I said I would go back and get another taste of it) The mass had “started” (I’m assuming what they did was the introit - with the chanting and all) but instead of mass, the priest went up to the podium and gave a looooong announcement. He talked about how the kids were going to be having a test after mass for first communion, I believe I recall him mentioning something about finances (haiti, new school, etc), he talked about the scandal and we need to keep the pope in our thoughts and prayers, he talked about how the procession was going to take place, he just talked and talked and talked, and I was under the impression that I was there to see a MASS. These type of long announcements are unheard of, even at my loony liberal Novus Ordo mass. This is why I think it felt more protestant. Because there wasn’t anything about it that resembled the liturgy that I’m familiar with - and I’m refering to the TLM. This parish seemed to be a congregation led by this priest and this priest alone, it had a very separatist feel to it, like he was there leader and they were his followers. The reason he seemed so “powerful” to me I guess is because he had the “power” to give such long announcements during the time he ought to have been following the liturgy. Now, i could be making a huge mistake, and such long announcements might be perfectly okay. But I simply had never seen this (except in protestant and Jehovahs witness churches where they don’t follow a liturgy). I felt like I was at a cult worship service and he was the cult leader.

Doubtfire,

The Palm Sunday liturgy is unique. It sounds like you left before it started. Usually, announcements are made prior to the sermon. Of course, because of the length of the reading of the Passion, there are usually no sermons on Palm Sunday. We didn’t have a procession for the blessing of the Palms, but the explanations about it are because it only comes round once a year and there are lots of us who haven’t seen one before.

Between the Blessing of the Palms in which the priest is robed in red, and when he changes over to purple for the Mass seems like the best time for needed announcements and any few words the priest may want to give in the absence of a sermon. I have to wonder if you gave it a fair chance. The feel? Asking prayers for the pope, concern for Haiti, and reminders of tests needed to be taken for confirmation immediately after Mass “feels” cultish or fake?

Someone else judged your posts negatively by how it “feels”. You answered very charitably and I commend you. Now you know how painful it can be to judged with partial knowledge by someone’s feelings. It sounds like you might have come to my chapel on Sunday. I am sorry if we left such a bad impression. Father is not my cult leader.

God bless you on your journey.

Rory

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Good story! We thankfully have opportunities to see our own Bishop and the Bishops of the surrounding (arch)dioceses quite often. We make it a point to attend the Bishop’s Masses regularly–he makes his schedule known.

I must admit, I was also taken a bit by surprise by what I found at the local SSPX chapel yesterday.

After forgetting about the early start time and missing the Blessing of the Palms at the beginning of my regular EF High Mass, I headed over to the local SSPX Chapel to pray the Rosary, assist the 10am Mass, pick-up a copy of their Holy Week schedule and visit their well-stocked bookstore.

After the Rosary, the pastor gave a briefing on the readings, distribution of Palms, and announced that - by the way - the celebrant of today’s Palm Sunday Liturgy would be SSPX Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais.

When His Excellency processed into the sanctuary with dozen servers, two priest and two deacons - wearing his traditional bishops mitre - I realized what a landmark occasion this was for me. The last and only time I saw a Catholic Bishop in person was on May 22, 1969, the day I was confirmed. So finally, after 41 years, in another city, at another communion rail, I knelt and received blessed Palms in my hand and later Holy Communion on my tongue from the consecrated hands of Bishop of our Holy Church.

After Mass, he spent an hour or more outdoors, meeting, posing for pictures and conversing with parishioners in French, Spanish and English. Many expressed gratitude for his courage, dedication and service to our Faith. His blessings were spoken in Latin. He was kind enough to sign my Angelus Press 1962 Roman Missal. I never made it to the bookstore.

 

[ProVobis]

I have also been to the Chicago SSPX which is quite large for Easter Vigil a few years back.

The Chicago SSPX (actually in Oak Park) have a chapel which they converted from a Presbyterian Church. It is usually full with a balcony to handle the overflow. I really wouldn’t know what would happen if they fully reconciled with Rome.

 

[D0UBTFIRE]

Doubtfire,

The Palm Sunday liturgy is unique. It sounds like you left before it started. Usually, announcements are made prior to the sermon. Of course, because of the length of the reading of the Passion, there are usually no sermons on Palm Sunday. We didn’t have a procession for the blessing of the Palms, but the explanations about it are because it only comes round once a year and there are lots of us who haven’t seen one before.

Between the Blessing of the Palms in which the priest is robed in red, and when he changes over to purple for the Mass seems like the best time for needed announcements and any few words the priest may want to give in the absence of a sermon. I have to wonder if you gave it a fair chance. The feel? **Asking prayers for the pope, concern for Haiti, and reminders of tests needed to be taken for confirmation immediately after Mass “feels” cultish or fake? **
Someone else judged your posts negatively by how it “feels”. You answered very charitably and I commend you. Now you know how painful it can be to judged with partial knowledge by someone’s feelings. It sounds like you might have come to my chapel on Sunday. I am sorry if we left such a bad impression. Father is not my cult leader.

God bless you on your journey.

Rory

No, by no means was it the content of what he was saying that felt that way to me. It was the very fact that he was talking for so long that seemed so strange. He became the focus. I didn’t walk in there expecting to focus on a priest, I expected to focus on God. I’m use to the priest walking in all the way to the altar and mass starting right away and therefor my focus on God starting right away. When the chanting started my mind started thinking about God but it was abruptly interupted when he began to make the announcements. I’ve simply never seen a priest give announcements at the beginning of mass, nor have I seen such long announcements like these and perhaps that is the source of my reaction. I didn’t mean to offend you nor anyone by saying it felt like a cult. I’m very sorry and I shouldn’t have used that word to describe this. I was trying to express how it seemed that a person was the focus, because that is how I experienced it. I used to be a Jehovah’s Witness, and the word “cult” comes to easily to my mind, I really shouldn’t be so quick to use it.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

JKirk,

This is not unique to the SSPX. It is not even unique to the Extraordinary Form. Chanted High Mass is ordinarily composed o be lengthy enough that the last part of the Sanctus, beginning with the Benedictus continues to the Consecration. The priest was not speeding. You will observe the same thing at a Latin High Mass in the Ordinary Form. (There are a few around, and my daughter sings in one weekly. I didn’t answer yesterday because I wanted to be sure. She assured me that this is how it works.)

Even if you still perceive this to be not to your liking, I hope you can understand that the priest was doing what every priest is instructed to do for High Masses in both forms.

Thanks for your consideration.

Rory

Yes, I did understand. That’s what I meant when I said I thought (and it is just my opinion) that could do with reforming, ie, it is my belief that we should finish one part before proceding to the other. There is much in both liturgies in current practice that could stand reforming: in the OF, the Sign of Peace, for example.

 

[Hesychios]

Yeah, I have some family members that literally live across the street in Naperville, so it was the convenient option that Sunday. In the past, I usually try to go to Sts Peter & Paul which, although slightly liberal, at least has a lovely Church to distract from it.

The architecture of that parish is excellent.

I particularly recommend Christmas midnight Mass there, they do a fine job of it.

The chapel was fairly crowded, but I was referring mostly to the literal emptiness of the space as being just a giant expanse of brick.

I suppose that I was just kind of surprised since I always perceived the Benedictines to be a little less sparse… or an Abbey in general?

They own the University. It is their principle means of support and many of them teach (although the membership of the Abbey is shrinking, less than fifty now, I think).

It was called Saint Procopius college when I was young.

By the way, whomever mentioned St. John Cantius - that is a beautiful Church that has a wonderful TLM. Unfortunately, my short visits to the Chicago area seldom allow me to visit.

Saint John Cantius was a Polish parish. I can remember about when they first began to serve the indult Mass there. My, how that apostolate has blossomed!

I have also been to the Chicago SSPX which is quite large for Easter Vigil a few years back.

It was actually a bit terrifying, as we began the Vigil by standing outside in the dark on the steps whilst the Priest lighted the fire and a lot of people were driving past screaming obscenities (it was a bad neighbourhood, I think).

When I last went, they were located in Oak Park, which is normally a very nice integrated community, but extremely liberal.

 

[Layman]

SSPX attendees may be bitter because of what happened to the Church and to them post-Vat. II. It may have created a siege mentality. And when you see the hi-jinks that occur at some Masses and the changes that now exist in most other Masses, you can see their point.

Decadence is one word for it. Iconoclasm is another.

I can imagine being in a traditionalist coccoon and watching the Church and the world around you change rapidly. Promiscuity as a ‘life-style’ and dancing at Mass???!!!; the world’s going to hell in a handbasket!

I’d say they’d have to be careful about not letting separatism become part of their ‘charism’ so to speak, that’s all. Just my two pence.