"We Will Not Comply": Obamacare Upheld By Supreme Court

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On what Catholic principles is this law unjust? Unwise, maybe. Cumbersome, maybe. A highly imperfect attempt to deal with a difficult issue, certainly. But unjust?

This is entirely separate from the question of contraception coverage, which was not before the Supreme Court.

Edwin
It is a bit of a paradox, isn’t it? I once tried to understand the bible so that I would have faith. That did not work. The bible did not make any sense to me. You must have faith in order to understand God’s word. Now the bible is coming alive for me and every word has meaning.

Our senses lead us to reason. Additionally, God made our reasoning ability to lead us to faith. However, we have short-circuited the process. Our reasoning ability does not lead us to God because our culture tears reason from its roots in God.

As you can see, reason has its roots in God. You may recall that the fruits of the Holy Spirit (God) are love, peace, wisdom, etc. However, that is not the way it is in the real world, is it? We live in a chaotic, unstable and evil world. We are more evil than at the time of Noah. If the origin of life is blind evolution, should we expect life to be any different than unstable and fluid?

Look at abortion. We murder over 4,000 unborn babies in the United States every day. Some on this forum would argue that abortion is “reasonable.” If man is reduced to matter, and therefore a thing, then it is “reasonable.” Reason loses its dominance and man has no other value than being an instrument of power.

"In the domain of morality, is it not an accepted principle of our Western bourgeois world that there is no absolute distinction between right and wrong rooted in the eternal order of God, but that they are relative and dependent entirely upon one’s point of view? Hence when the Western world wishes to decide what is right and wrong even in certain moral matters, it takes a poll – forgetful that the majority never makes a thing right….The first poll of public opinion taken in history of Christianity was on Pilate’s front porch, and it was wrong (Bishop Sheen).”

*“Our Constitution puts politics under theology, democracy under God. But today, politics denies its divine foundation. Politics is today the supreme and absolute science. We once lived in the age of the Theological Man; then came the age of the Economic Man; now we are in the age of the Political Man. The Theological Man lived for God; the Economic Man lived for profit; the Political Man lives for the State…So important has politics become, that now men judge religion by its attitude toward politics, rather than politics by its attitude toward religion (Bishop Sheen).” *

Are you judging religion by your attitude toward politics? Do you get it? Do you not see that OmamaCare is an unjust law because it is an assault on our religious freedoms? Do you also fail to see that all of what has happened is in Satan’s plan? Do you also fail to see that Satan is ready and able to take over the world. Our mother, Mary, wears combat boots.

Get on board! Time is short. Do not waste time. When the chasetisements start there will not be time for most of us to convert.
 
Are you judging religion by your attitude toward politics?
Actually, I try to do the reverse and suspect you and many others on this forum of putting politics first. But we could go round all day with such accusations. . . .
Do you get it? Do you not see that OmamaCare is an unjust law because it is an assault on our religious freedoms?
But that’s incidental. The requirement for religious institutions to cover contraception has no intrinsic connection with the issues decided by the Supreme Court yesterday.

I’m asking you what is unjust about the basic provisions of the bill, apart from the issue of contraception?

And you haven’t answered that. You’ve given me a lot of apocalyptic rhetoric to avoid answering.

I grew up with apocalyptic rhetoric. I was told by many people that we should oppose Catholicism because Catholicism was obviously part of Satan’s plan to create one world religion.

Ought I to have trusted that apocalyptic fear over against the actual evidence regarding the nature of Catholicism?

So here.

Give me a solid argument for why the basic principles of this bill (leaving the contraception issue aside) are unjust.

Edwin
 
It’s already working in Massachusetts.
Hmmmm… I wonder why it works in Massachusetts.

In the states that “refuse” to comply – I wonder how many more women will choose to have an abortion.

Just what is Jindal plan for the poor in Louisiana?

Just wondering…

🤷
 
It’s already working in Massachusetts.
"Health care costs in Massachusetts are number one in the country,” he added. “They have a series of problems with people who decide to take the tax, in other words, pay the fine, instead of buying insurance, because it’s actually cheaper, particularly younger and healthier people.”
I await your ad hominem of the source.
 
The USCCB, which had advocated for healthcare reform, ended up opposing the law that was eventually enacted, because it did not bar federal funds from being used to pay for abortion. It’s no minor matter that the bishops who had been for healthcare reform refused to support the final bill. They would probably have supported it had the Stupak Amendment been passed, but the administration would not accept it.

Of course, that was before the HHS mandate removing religious liberty from Catholic institutions. They have even more reason to oppose it now. Had they supported it, and then been faced with the mandate, it would have been viewed as a great betrayal. In fact, is IS viewed as a great betrayal.
 
Actually,

Give me a solid argument for why the basic principles of this bill (leaving the contraception issue aside) are unjust.

Edwin
You will never accept that OmamaCare is an unjust law against our basic freedom of religion. Therefore, I submit that ObamaCare is pure socialism and against the Bill of Rights, the Constitution and the intent of the Founding Fathers. Here is your proof, but I seriously doubt that you will accept it:

Adam Smith said that economic growth is the product of five things.
  1. Private property
  2. Free markets
  3. Limited civil government
  4. Accumulation of capital
  5. An increase in the division of labor
What was Adam Smith’s key insight? Both parties to an exchange can benefit so long as cooperation is strictly voluntary.

ObamaCare attacks private property, free markets, limited government and cooperation that is strictly voluntary.

Adam Smith and Thomas Jefferson saw concentrated government power as a great danger to the ordinary man. Three documents that support this view:
  1. Virginia Declaration of Rights – 1776
  2. U.S. Bill of Rights – 1791
  3. Separation of Powers (Executive, Legislative and Judicial)
What did Milton Friedman have to say about the “invisible hand?” “An individual who intends only to serve the public interest by fostering government intervention is led by an invisible hand to promote private interest, which was no part of his intention.”

ObamaCare is an example of extreme concentrated government power and a very definate threat to our freedom. ObamaCare is not only a threat to our religious freedom, it is a threat to all of our God-given and Constitutional freedoms.

This socialist government better be prepared to fight for 1,000 years because we will not comply with ObamaCare and the unjust laws on abortion. Additionally, we will not recognize homosexual “marriages,” which are no marriages at all.

Socialism conflicts with the natural law regarding private property. "If man, [according to Aquinas], has the right to own, control, and use private property, the State cannot give him this right or take it away; it can only protect it."

***Pope Pius XI … made it clear that no Catholic could subscribe even to moderate Socialism. **The reason is that Socialism is founded on a doctrine of human society which is bounded by time and takes no account of any objective other than that of material well-being. Since, therefore, it proposes a form of social organization which aims solely at production, it places too severe a restraint on human liberty, at the same time flouting the true notion of social authority.

Bl. John XXIII, Encyclical Mater et Magistra, 1961*
 
You will never accept that OmamaCare is an unjust law against our basic freedom of religion. Therefore, I submit that ObamaCare is pure socialism and against the Bill of Rights, the Constitution and the intent of the Founding Fathers. Here is your proof, but I seriously doubt that you will accept it:

Adam Smith said that economic growth is the product of five things.
  1. Private property
  2. Free markets
  3. Limited civil government
  4. Accumulation of capital
  5. An increase in the division of labor
What was Adam Smith’s key insight? Both parties to an exchange can benefit so long as cooperation is strictly voluntary.

ObamaCare attacks private property, free markets, limited government and cooperation that is strictly voluntary.

Adam Smith and Thomas Jefferson saw concentrated government power as a great danger to the ordinary man. Three documents that support this view:
  1. Virginia Declaration of Rights – 1776
  2. U.S. Bill of Rights – 1791
  3. Separation of Powers (Executive, Legislative and Judicial)
What did Milton Friedman have to say about the “invisible hand?” “An individual who intends only to serve the public interest by fostering government intervention is led by an invisible hand to promote private interest, which was no part of his intention.”

ObamaCare is an example of extreme concentrated government power and a very definate threat to our freedom. ObamaCare is not only a threat to our religious freedom, it is a threat to all of our God-given and Constitutional freedoms.

This socialist government better be prepared to fight for 1,000 years because we will not comply with ObamaCare and the unjust laws on abortion. Additionally, we will not recognize homosexual “marriages,” which are no marriages at all.

Socialism conflicts with the natural law regarding private property. "If man, [according to Aquinas], has the right to own, control, and use private property, the State cannot give him this right or take it away; it can only protect it."

***Pope Pius XI … made it clear that no Catholic could subscribe even to moderate Socialism. ***The reason is that Socialism is founded on a doctrine of human society which is bounded by time and takes no account of any objective other than that of material well-being. Since, therefore, it proposes a form of social organization which aims solely at production, it places too severe a restraint on human liberty, at the same time flouting the true notion of social authority.

Bl. John XXIII, Encyclical Mater et Magistra, 1961
👍

The indispensable condition for our personal spiritual survival is that we say NO to the prevailing values of the liberal order and that we KEEP saying NO.
 
There is a hierarchy of laws: the highest law is divine law, the second is natural law and last there is human law. Everything that we say or do either affirms or denies divine law. We are either getting closer to God, or farther away from Him. You may not sing God’s praises in the choir and then vote for someone who supports “abortion rights.”

An unjust law is no law at all because a human law cannot violate either divine law or natural law. Roe versus Wade, homosexual “marriages” and laws against our religious freedom (ObamaCare) are all unjust laws. They are not worth the paper that they are written on! We have an obligation as Christians and Catholics to oppose all unjust laws. God will not only judge us by what we said, but He will also judge us by what we did not say!
 
You will never accept that OmamaCare is an unjust law against our basic freedom of religion. Therefore, I submit that ObamaCare is pure socialism and against the Bill of Rights, the Constitution and the intent of the Founding Fathers.
Here is your proof that it is not so. The individual mandate, although not presented in the form of a tax, is essentially a tax. The SCOTUS said as much in their decision. And having a tax to pay for things that you may not want or need is not socialism. If you think it is socialism, then I suppose you think public education supported by taxation is also socialism and against the Bill or Rights. Since every civilized country has some form of public education then I guess you think every civilized country is pure socialism.

Would Adam Smith say that all forms of taxation are contrary to the free market?

Obamacare does not attack any of your private property any more than taxes to pay for public schools is an attack on your private property.

Everything you have said against Obamacare could also be said against public schools. So if you have anything specific to say about Obamacare itself, please do.
 
There is a hierarchy of laws: the highest law is divine law, the second is natural law and last there is human law.
Those who hate hierarchy are in for a shock in the next life because there’s a hierarchy of creatures there too … eternally.

What started as a demand for basic civil rights has mutated into a liberal demand to overturn the whole society, along with its traditions and norms, its standards and laws, its history and heroes.
 
Everything you have said against Obamacare could also be said against public schools.
I guess that you now going to tell me that public schools are not nationalized!

The Nationalization of Public Schools

The actual administration of educational institutions by the government, the ‘nationalization,’ as it were, of the bulk of the ‘education industry’ is much more difficult to justify on [free market] or, so far as I can see, on any other grounds.*** Denationalizing schooling**," I went on, “would widen the range of choice available to parents. . . . If present public expenditure were made available to par! Parents regardless of where they send their children, a wide variety of schools would spring up to meet the demand. . . . Here, as in other fields, competitive enterprise is likely to be far more efficient in meeting consumer demand than either nationalized enterprises or enterprises run to serve other purposes.” *

Milton Friedman
Wall Street Journal
June 9, 2005; Page A16

Ditto for ObamaCare.
 
I guess that you now going to tell me that public schools are not nationalized!

The Nationalization of Public Schools

The actual administration of educational institutions by the government, the ‘nationalization,’ as it were, of the bulk of the ‘education industry’ is much more difficult to justify on [free market] or, so far as I can see, on any other grounds.*** Denationalizing schooling***," I went on, “would widen the range of choice available to parents. . . . If present public expenditure were made available to par! Parents regardless of where they send their children, a wide variety of schools would spring up to meet the demand. . . . Here, as in other fields, competitive enterprise is likely to be far more efficient in meeting consumer demand than either nationalized enterprises or enterprises run to serve other purposes.”

Milton Friedman
Wall Street Journal
June 9, 2005; Page A16

Ditto for ObamaCare.
Obamacare does not limit the choices between private sector insurance companies. In that sense it is more like the kind of school funding that Friedman evidently prefers. The only choice that is removed is the choice not to buy any health insurance at all. That is like the mandate to have your kids educated. You are not allowed to give them no education at all.
 
Obamacare does not limit the choices between private sector insurance companies. In that sense it is more like the kind of school funding that Friedman evidently prefers. The only choice that is removed is the choice not to buy any health insurance at all. That is like the mandate to have your kids educated. You are not allowed to give them no education at all.
If ObamaCare is not the nationalization of health care, I do not know what is! If I were to use your very narrow definition of socialism and nationalism, nothing would be socialism.

You are confusing and lumping all three parts of public education together and then saying that pubic education is NOT socialism. **Milton Friedman was very careful to say that only the administration of pubic education is the clear-cut nationalization (socialism) of public education. ** Unfortunately, you are silent on the subject of the nationalization of public schools. I can only assume that you disagree with Milton Friedman. Where do you stand?

*“With respect to education, I pointed out that government was playing three major roles: (1) legislating compulsory schooling, (2) financing schooling, (3) administering schools. I concluded that there was some justification for compulsory schooling and the financing of schooling, but "the actual administration of educational institutions by the government, the ‘nationalization,’ as it were, of the bulk of the ‘education industry’ is much more difficult to justify on [free market] or, so far as I can see, on any other grounds." Yet finance and administration "could readily be separated. Governments could require a minimum of schooling financed by giving the parents vouchers redeemable for a given sum per child per year to be spent on purely educational services. . . . Denationalizing schooling,” I went on, “would widen the range of choice available to parents. . . . If present public expenditure were made available to par! Parents regardless of where they send their children, a wide variety of schools would spring up to meet the demand. . . . Here, as in other fields, competitive enterprise is likely to be far more efficient in meeting consumer demand than either nationalized enterprises or enterprises run to serve other purposes (Friedman).” *

The first example of socialism (nationalism) is public schooling. It always shocks Americans when I inform them that free and compulsory schooling is one of the ten “planks” of the Communist Manifesto and that public schooling is a key aspect of the Soviet, Chinese, and Cuban ways of life. Yet, even after discovering these little-known facts, they continue to believe that public schooling in those countries is socialism while public schooling in the United States is free enterprise. Let’s examine the principles of public schooling.

The public schooling system, like all coercive redistributive programs, is founded on the Marxian concept of “from each according to ability, to each according to need.” The political system is used to plunder the wealth and savings of everyone, even those who don’t have children, to pay for the schooling of other people’s children.

The plain truth is that public schooling is also the absolutely perfect embodiment of the socialist concept of central planning. The “education” of each child — from teachers to textbooks to curricula to time in school — is planned for him by a central political agency, either on a local, state, or national basis. The government, not the parents, controls the “education” of the child.

The tragic failure of socialism in public schooling is as well known as the failure of socialism all over the world. Yet, Americans just won’t let go. What is the common answer to the horrific results of public schooling? Plunder the citizenry and distribute the loot to an even greater extent!

But the real tragedy is that so many freedom devotees in America also won’t let go of socialism. All too often, their answer to the problem involves a futile attempt to make socialism work more efficiently. They want competition in public schools, vouchers, and other schemes which have the ultimate effect of leaving the socialist system intact, reformed, and more efficient.

What is the answer to socialism in public schools? Freedom! Why not separate school and state in the same way that our ancestors separated church and state? The Founding Fathers trusted freedom in religious activities, and look how blessed we are that government no longer subsidizes or controls our religious activities (or that of our children). How would you instead like a voucher system with public and private churches? How about competition between public and private churches? If anybody should trust freedom in education, it should be the Americans who have such a wonderful legacy of religious liberty.

A second example of socialism in America: Social Security. Having come into existence as part of the New Deal in the 1930s (the earlier Americans would have nothing to do with it!), the Social Security system is also founded on stealing. Here, the loot is forcibly taken, again under the guise of “taxation,” from the young and given to the old. The recipients always rationalize the process by convincing themselves that the money, which was plundered from them was retained in some type of investment pool which earned interest. They block out of their minds that the politicians spent their money years ago and that they are now engaging in the classic socialist scheme of using the political process to take from those who have and give the loot to others.

A tragedy again concerns many freedom devotees. What is the all too common answer to Social Security? Reduce Social Security taxes! What? Reduce Social Security taxes? Why reduce Social Security taxes? Isn’t this just another attempt to make the socialism of Social Security operate more efficiently?

What is the solution to Social Security? Eliminate Social Security taxes by repealing this evil and immoral scheme! And then constitutionally prohibit it from ever being passed again! Freedom is the solution!

What will then happen to the elderly in a system in which there is no Social Security? Probably the same thing that happened in America for its first 150 years when the American people refused to use the political process to steal from others. Some people saved for their old age. Others depended on their children for help. Others relied on friends, neighbors, or private relief agencies. Those Americans had faith and trust in freedom and in the caring nature of others. They did not believe that politicians, and their bureaucratic minions, were the only good and caring people in American society. And the result was not only the most prosperous society in history but also the most charitable society in history.
 
If ObamaCare is not the nationalization of health care, I do not know what is! If I were to use your very narrow definition of socialism and nationalism, nothing would be socialism.
You are using an old debater’s trick. You widen the definition of a term you would like to apply. Once you get your opponent to accept the widened definition then you draw a conclusion based on the narrower definition, hoping your opponent will forget that the meaning of the word has been changed. For example you quote Pope Pius saying that socialism is bad. There is no indication that he was thinking of your broad interpretation. And regarding the ACA, rather than attack it on it’s merits you take the lazy way out by a sloppy association with socialism, then hoping that people’s knee-jerk reaction to that word will rub off on the ACA.
You are confusing and lumping all three parts of public education together and then saying that pubic education is NOT socialism. **Milton Friedman was very careful to say that only the administration of pubic education is the clear-cut nationalization (socialism) of public education. ** Unfortunately, you are silent on the subject of the nationalization of public schools. I can only assume that you disagree with Milton Friedman. Where do you stand?
I have tried to keep my personal opinions out of this discussion as they are not relevant.
*“With respect to education, I pointed out that *government was playing three major roles: (1) legislating compulsory schooling, (2) financing schooling, (3) administering schools. I concluded that there was some justification for compulsory schooling and the financing of schooling, but "the actual administration of educational institutions by the government, the ‘nationalization,’ as it were, of the bulk of the ‘education industry’ is much more difficult to justify on [free market] or, so far as I can see, on any other grounds." Yet finance and administration "could readily be separated. Governments could require a minimum of schooling financed by giving the parents vouchers redeemable for a given sum per child per year to be spent on purely educational services. . . . Denationalizing schooling,” I went on, “would widen the range of choice available to parents. . . . If present public expenditure were made available to par! Parents regardless of where they send their children, a wide variety of schools would springU up to meet the demand. . . . Here, as in other fields, competitive enterprise is likely to be far more efficient in meeting consumer demand than either nationalized enterprises or enterprises run to serve other purposes (Friedman).”
The first example of socialism (nationalism) is public schooling. It always shocks Americans when I inform them that free and compulsory schooling is one of the ten “planks” of the Communist Manifesto and that public schooling is a key aspect of the Soviet, Chinese, and Cuban ways of life. Yet, even after discovering these little-known facts, they continue to believe that public schooling in those countries is socialism while public schooling in the United States is free enterprise. Let’s examine the principles of public schooling.
The public schooling system, like all coercive redistributive programs, is founded on the Marxian concept of “from each according to ability, to each according to need.” The political system is used to plunder the wealth and savings of everyone, even those who don’t have children, to pay for the schooling of other people’s children.
It is just to have everyone pay for public education because everyone benefits from having a society of educated people - not just the parents with children. Do you dispute the notion of a “public good”? The CCC talks about it a lot. I wish you would quote the CCC half as much as you quote Adam Smith or Milton Friedman or any other pseudo saints of yours.
What is the answer to socialism in public schools? Freedom! Why not separate school and state in the same way that our ancestors separated church and state?
Because the separation of church and state allows the possibility that one may choose no church at all. But with education we (including you) have decided that the choice of “no education at all” is not a choice we want to allow parents to make.

But this discussion of education has served its purpose. It has made you show that your opposition to the ACA is founded on the same radical belief that government should have no part in mandating education, so I am content with your answers.

So what about another comparison that is more like the ACA? How about the laws that mandate insurance when driving a car? How is that different from the ACA? Well, I realize that you don’t need to buy car insurance if you don’t drive a car whereas the ACA mandates insurance just for existing. But is that really much of a distinction? Unless you live in a big city with excellent public transportation, you are probably going to need to drive a car just to get by in this society. So a mandate to buy liability insurance is practically universal. So is that socialism too?
 
You are using an old debater’s trick. You widen the definition of a term you would like to apply. Once you get your opponent to accept the widened definition then you draw a conclusion based on the narrower definition, hoping your opponent will forget that the meaning of the word has been changed. For example you quote Pope Pius saying that socialism is bad. There is no indication that he was thinking of your broad interpretation. And regarding the ACA, rather than attack it on it’s merits you take the lazy way out by a sloppy association with socialism, then hoping that people’s knee-jerk reaction to that word will rub off on the ACA.

I have tried to keep my personal opinions out of this discussion as they are not relevant.

It is just to have everyone pay for public education because everyone benefits from having a society of educated people - not just the parents with children. Do you dispute the notion of a “public good”? The CCC talks about it a lot. I wish you would quote the CCC half as much as you quote Adam Smith or Milton Friedman or any other pseudo saints of yours.

Because the separation of church and state allows the possibility that one may choose no church at all. But with education we (including you) have decided that the choice of “no education at all” is not a choice we want to allow parents to make.

But this discussion of education has served its purpose. It has made you show that your opposition to the ACA is founded on the same radical belief that government should have no part in mandating education, so I am content with your answers.

So what about another comparison that is more like the ACA? How about the laws that mandate insurance when driving a car? How is that different from the ACA? Well, I realize that you don’t need to buy car insurance if you don’t drive a car whereas the ACA mandates insurance just for existing. But is that really much of a distinction? Unless you live in a big city with excellent public transportation, you are probably going to need to drive a car just to get by in this society. So a mandate to buy liability insurance is practically universal. So is that socialism too?
Everyone has a line drawn in the sand. Your line is just a lot farther back than mine. All of the things that we have discussed about socialism have consequences on you and me. You do not see the sharks in the water, I do. You, and most of the world, suffer from what I call pathological denial. If we do not listen, we will have to feel! You are not reading the signs of the times. You will be one of those who will wonder what happened. Pray, pray, pray for discernment and for Mary’s Peace Plan.
 
Obamacare does not limit the choices between private sector insurance companies. … The only choice that is removed is the choice not to buy any health insurance at all. …
This courtesy of the folks who insist on the “freedom to choose.”

The indispensable condition for our personal survival, spiritual or otherwise, is that we say NO to the prevailing values of the liberal order and that we KEEP saying NO.
 
That’s funny. And not what they are saying in Massachusetts. I guess it depends on from where you get info.
Massachusetts is a very liberal state. Liberals never blame a liberal idea for its failure because to liberals, their ideology is their truth [truth being relative in their minds]. Failure lies elsewhere, e.g., not implemented properly.

“The time is sure to come when people will not accept sound teaching, but their ears will be itching for anything new, and they will collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes; and then they will shut their ears to the truth and will turn to myths.” – 2 Timothy, 4:3-4
 
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