Weak Sola Scriptura argument

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sinner06 said:
All right, Peter was obviously a leader in the early Church, possibly the leader. Let’s say he and the other Apostles were infallible, though I don’t see anywhere in there that talks about infallibility, or ex cathedra, or that, but let’s say they were. What’s to say all of their infallible teachings aren’t contained in scripture?
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So you are saying the Gospels are fallible… interesting. Especially from someone relying so much on scriptures alone.
 
sinner06 said:
You’re right you don’t. Why do you need Holy Tradition though?
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Holy Tradition is what we still have from when Jesus was here and it is His gift to all that are His.

Why wouldn’t someone not want such a precious gift???

When you become a Christian you become part of Jesus and so you have some of God in you and you are in God. In this way our eyes can see things they could not before. Our hearts are softened and feel things we did not know before. And our strength is nourished and and made stronger from God and so we can conquer evil.

So, it is part of being a Christian. You want to know more?
 
JacktheCatholic said:
Holy Tradition is what we still have from when Jesus was here and it is His gift to all that are His.

Why wouldn’t someone not want such a precious gift???

When you become a Christian you become part of Jesus and so you have some of God in you and you are in God. In this way our eyes can see things they could not before. Our hearts are softened and feel things we did not know before. And our strength is noursined and and made stronger from God and so we can conqeour evil.

So, it is part of being a Christian. You want to know more?
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My point is why do you believe we have sacred tradition? Where is that taught, other than in tradition itself?
 
sinner06 said:
My point is why do you believe we have sacred tradition? Where is that taught, other than in tradition itself?
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Yes Holy Tradition does teach it and that is why you find it in scripture because scripture is but a piece of Holy Tradition.
 
JacktheCatholic said:
I believe if you use the concordance in your NAB and look up Tradition you will find a handful of good verses. 👍
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All right, thank you, I have a horrible headache right now so I’ll have to get back to you later, but I’ll look at what the Bible says about Tradition. God Bless
 
sinner06 said:
All right, thank you, I have a horrible headache right now so I’ll have to get back to you later, but I’ll look at what the Bible says about Tradition. God Bless
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Some verses that may help…

1 Corinthians 11:2 “hold fast to traditions I handed you”

2 Thess 2:15 “hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter” (this can still be seen in Jewdism with the seder meal and the telling of the Exodus where the leader explains parts of the Exodus)

2 Thess 3:6 “shun those acting not according to tradition”

We see in scripture where we are to entrust both the oral and written traditions to men…

2 Tim 1:13 “follow my sound words; guard the truth”
and
2 Tim 2:2 “what you heard entrust to faithful men”

And that is how things were done most all of the time, trusting the oral teachings to faithful men.

I am also aware of several verses that speak against traditions but they are not the traditions delivered by the Apostles and those faithful men entrusted to the traditions: Mt 15:3 and Mk 7:9 and Col 2:8. These verses when understood in context will not conflict with the scripture I just quoted and that is how it is meant to be.
 
All right, I’ll list my main points.
  1. Did the Jews have infallible tradition? If so, where can I read about it?
  2. The tradition mentioned in the verses you talked about, I asked this question before, maybe someone answered it, but couldn’t the oral tradition/word of mouth mean the Gospel, which was transmitted orally for a quite a while I believe, and was not written down until much after most of the Epistles, while written words could refer to the Epistles, or some such arrangement?
  3. Why can the Bible not contain all of the infallible teachings given to the Apostles? Who says there has to be more?
If there are obvious answers that I’m missing, or if the very fact that I’m asking questions implies that I think I’m infallible, fine , just please help me out. Thanks!
 
sinner06 said:
All right, I’ll list my main points.
  1. Did the Jews have infallible tradition? If so, where can I read about it?
  2. The tradition mentioned in the verses you talked about, I asked this question before, maybe someone answered it, but couldn’t the oral tradition/word of mouth mean the Gospel, which was transmitted orally for a quite a while I believe, and was not written down until much after most of the Epistles, while written words could refer to the Epistles, or some such arrangement?
  3. Why can the Bible not contain all of the infallible teachings given to the Apostles? Who says there has to be more?
If there are obvious answers that I’m missing, or if the very fact that I’m asking questions implies that I think I’m infallible, fine , just please help me out. Thanks!
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  1. The 10 commandments could be considered infallible. And when Jesus mentions the chair of Moses in the NT he basically says to do as they teach and not as they do.
  2. Scripture states that Jesus taught so many things orally that we could not write them all. And we know that writings were very time consuming and had a higher cost than we understand today so oral teachings were the norm. Also the NT earliest was about 20 years after Jesus’ resurrection and most people could not read or write.
  3. Again the infallible teachings are those from God and as scripture even atests to, Jesus taught so many things that they could not all be written. Scripture also says to keep all that we were given both oral and written. The Paraclete was also sent to help preserve and protect these teachings and help us to recall them.
I have tried to offer scripture alone but I threw in some historical as well.
 
JacktheCatholic said:
  1. The 10 commandments could be considered infallible. And when Jesus mentions the chair of Moses in the NT he basically says to do as they teach and not as they do.
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The Ten Commandments were in scripture, weren’t they? They may have started out being spoken, but they were pretty soon added to scripture. I’ll have to look at the Chair of Moses thing though, what verse is that?
JacktheCatholic said:
  1. Scripture states that Jesus taught so many things orally that we could not write them all. And we know that writings were very time consuming and had a higher cost than we understand today so oral teachings were the norm. Also the NT earliest was about 20 years after Jesus’ resurrection and most people could not read or write.
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Where does it say that He taught so much we couldn’t write it all down? I am not saying the Gospel was not transmitted orally, it obviously was for at least the first 100 years or so. I am saying that eventually, couldn’t it all have been written down? And even if people couldn’t read or write, they could still have learned from scripture, they simply would have had to have it read to them.
JacktheCatholic said:
  1. Again the infallible teachings are those from God and as scripture even atests to, Jesus taught so many things that they could not all be written. Scripture also says to keep all that we were given both oral and written. The Paraclete was also sent to help preserve and protect these teachings and help us to recall them.
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Again, where does it say there’s so much it could not be written? And why couldn’t oral tradition refer to the Gospel?
 
Yes, much, if not all, of what is apostolic oral tradition is also contained within Scripture, but that doesn’t make Scripture solely authoritative…far from it.

Remember also, the Bible itself, it’s compilation and canonization by The Church, is one of the biggest examples of Sacred Tradition. Those that accomplished the task knew which writings to include, because they knew the proper teaching as handed down through the apostles.

Here’s a helpful article to read
 
JOHN 21:
24 This is that disciple who giveth testimony of these things and hath written these things: and we know that his testimony is true. 25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did which, if they were written every one, the world itself. I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.
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🙂

MATTHEW 23:
1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples, 2 Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses. 3 All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not.
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:cool:
 
sinner06 said:
The verse you quoted only says that Jesus did many things, it says nothing about extra teachings. Couldn’t this just be referring to healings, miracles, etc. After all, if the Scriptures recorded every healing that occurred during His 3 year long ministry, It would be a long book. Scripture details some healings and miracles, to show how powerful He was, and because teachings sometimes accompanied the miracles, but writing down everything He did was not necessary. 1000 extra pages containing miracles would not have added any more meaning to the Gospel. It does not say anywhere that there were other teachings not written down.
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As for the Chair of Moses, can anyone give me more details on it? I searched one of those electronic Bibles online and the only mention of the Chair of Moses was that one verse in Matthew. If anyone could give me extra information, especially from the Old Testament, that would be great.
 
sinner06 said:
As for the Chair of Moses, can anyone give me more details on it? I searched one of those electronic Bibles online and the only mention of the Chair of Moses was that one verse in Matthew. If anyone could give me extra information, especially from the Old Testament, that would be great.
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You will not find it anywhere else in scripture because the Chair of Moses is part of the OT Tradition and it is a Tradition Jesus recognized as valid. 😉
 
sinner06 said:
As for the Chair of Moses, can anyone give me more details on it? I searched one of those electronic Bibles online and the only mention of the Chair of Moses was that one verse in Matthew. If anyone could give me extra information, especially from the Old Testament, that would be great.
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That’s it. That’s the only direct. But it’s Tradition! Tradition doesn’t need to be explicitly contained in Scripture. But consider: Who was Moses? The Law-giver. Where do people sit? Chairs. So, the place where the law-givers sit is…the Chair of Moses.
 
JacktheCatholic said:
You will not find it anywhere else in scripture because the Chair of Moses is part of the OT Tradition and it is a Tradition Jesus recognized as valid. 😉
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He simply told them to do what the Pharisees said. You must obey your parents, right? That doesn’t mean they’re infallible, it simply means that they’re your parents and you owe them loyalty and obedience, regardless of the correctness of what they’re saying. The scribes and the Pharisees were prominent Jewish leaders, and as Jews, the Apostles would have been required to show them obedience and respect, right? But they were not to follow the Pharisees hypocritical ways. I don’t see how infallibility is shown there.

Secondly, are you saying the scribes and the Pharisees were infallible? I’ve never heard that before.
 
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