Wealth of the Church / Vatican

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JoeFreedom

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I was having a conversation with my neighbor the other day and it turned to religion. We usually discuss politics and somehow it got onto the topic of religion. I don’t remember exactly how. He and I have civil conversations and respect each other’s opinions, but I learned that he is Catholic, raised and confirmed and was even an alter boy.

He said he fell away from the Church because he had asked a priest one time what they do with their chalices and other items when they are transferred to another a parish and he said that the priest is able to sell those items and take the cash. I expressed that I’ve never heard that and don’t believe that it was true and said I’d look into it. So my first question is that true?

Secondly, leapfrogging on the wealth issue, he told me how he despised how the Church (aka: Vatican) uses (hoards) its wealth, and that they should give it all away because they could do so much good with the money and that the Church is supposed to be poor, like Jesus and renounce material possessions and wealth.

My response was that Christ never renounced wealth, and it is not good nor bad in and of itself, but renounced the love of money. I also stated that wealth, is 1) a gift from God and 2) when used properly can do so much good. Finally I told him that if the Vatican was to give away all its wealth, it could not use the interest it gains on the wealth to continue its charity (this is something I heard from Karlo Broussard on a the Catholic Answers radio program years ago).

He didn’t agree with any of my takes on this, so I’m hoping I can find better resources and answers so I can be more prepared next time. I’m hoping someone hear can help. I the mean time, I’m praying for him to come back to the Church and that eventually the answers will be given to him.

Thanks
 
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Is he a Christian? Has he sold all he has and given to the poor? No? Then why does he expect it of other Christians? In fact, there are many Catholics who actually do in fact do this (religious). I don’t know of any Protestants or “independent” Christians who live this. In any event, the Catholic Church does more charity than anyone.

Likewise, the Vatican isn’t as wealthy as people think–the priceless art and beautiful architecture can give that impression, but the point of those things is to give glory to God. Remember, it was Judas who argued that something expensive used to give glory to God should be sold for the poor:
Mark 14:3 And while he was at Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, as he sat at table, a woman came with an alabaster jar of ointment of pure nard, very costly, and she broke the jar and poured it over his head. 4 But there were some who said to themselves indignantly, “Why was the ointment thus wasted? 5 For this ointment might have been sold for more than three hundred denarii,[a] and given to the poor.” And they reproached her. 6 But Jesus said, “Let her alone; why do you trouble her? She has done a beautiful thing to me.
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(the Gospel of John note it was Judas specifically who became indignant(.
 
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JoeFreedom said:
He said he fell away from the Church because he had asked a priest one time what they do with their chalices and other items when they are transferred to another a parish and he said that the priest is able to sell those items and take the cash. I expressed that I’ve never heard that and don’t believe that it was true and said I’d look into it. So my first question is that true?
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I’m not sure he understood the priest. However, some of those items belong to a parish and the priest cannot dispose of them and keep the cash.

Most priests do own a chalice, and that they would take with them.
 
He is a Christian (a cradle Catholic), just fallen away. Still believes, but has sort of turned “mentally” Protestant, in he made the comment that “he can worship individually and doesn’t need the Church to do that”.

I did express that the Church doesn’t own anything, but that was not satisfactory either. The one thing I didn’t say, because I felt it would be better to express at another time (because it’s a side discussion, related), was that the gold and ornateness of the Church is to give glory to God, but I didn’t say because I felt like that might harden his heart even more…
 
If the Church gave all its valuables away, can I have Michaelangelo’s “David”; perhaps a panel from the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel as well?

Perhaps he’s thinking, instead, that the Church should sell those items and give the money to the poor. Some, like the Sistine Chapel panels, probably can’t be removed without destroying them. Some, like “David” could be moved. And then what? It would go into some billionaire’s garden and no ordinary person could ever see it again. Right now, anybody can see it. They can see the panels in the Sistine Chapel, and the statue of Moses in St. Peter’s and all kinds of wonderful things.

And once the money is given to the poor, it’s gone forever, and so is the opportunity people now have to see those incredible works of art.

Now, as to the money the Church already has, it was given to the Church by millions of people who understood that the Church would manage it, hopefully using it for good works. But the Church does a lot more than just hand money to poor people. It supports missionaries, seminaries and seminarians, drilling wells in places where the water is otherwise toxic, operating social services for poor people, providing medical services. On and on. Just handing it out isn’t an answer to much of anything.

I once read that if everything in the U.S. was liquidated (assuming there would be buyers) including bank accounts, retirement accounts, homes, business buildings, cars, land, tractors, harvesters, lawn mowers, everything, there would be $1,000 to give to each person on earth. And once that got spent, that would be the end because you couldn’t repeat it.

The Church is nowhere near as wealthy as the totality of the assets in the U.S. What would every poor person actually get in a liquidation of the Catholic Church? I have never seen anyone analyze it, but I doubt it would be very much. In any event, the well drillers, the doctors, the nurses, the social workers, the home builders, would not show up the very next day. Would it be worth it?

I sure do doubt it.
 
The Church does own a lot in property, however, there have been articles about how the Vatican is going to have to tighten it’s belt after some mismanagement scandals, a big drop in Peter’s pence, lawsuit awards and the obvious drop in tourism at the Vatican, which I understand to be it’s primary source of income.

So are billions secreted away in Swiss bank accounts or hoards of gold stacked away in hidden vaults inside Vatican walls? I doubt it. 😉
 
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A great video that just came out today:


And yes, Christ DID renounce wealth… The apostolic college held their money in common. (And yes, Judas was the one who kept track of it.)

And no, I think (and hope) whoever said that about selling chalices was joking.

Giving money to the poor does not necessarily help the poor very much - and then anyway the money will tend to “move on”… to business owners, who will then repay loans to banks… etc. So… there are illusions in economics, including in philanthropy. This is an oversimplification, but I hope the point is clear enough.

The 2 billion dollar bathtub though… maybe that one could go! (Solid porphyry, belonged to Constantine’s daughter… in the museums.)
 
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I think you are conflating “renounce” with “denounce.”

Christ’s cloak was woven in one piece - no pockets, eh? And no place to rest His head…

-K
 
Sorry, should have nuanced that a little better. You are correct. They do own property and other things. What I meant to say was that the Pope does not own the Vatican and the Churches… trying to summarize my conversation too briefly. So thank you for pointing that out because that was an error on my part I would not want others who are reading here to read incorrectly.
 
So basically he would prefer that the church sell everything (under the disguise of giving it to the poor) and disappear from the face of the earth. That’s what he’s really saying, right? Just have him be honest with himself. He hates the church and he rather it disappeared. Is he so concerned about the poor that he sleeps on the floor because he’d rather someone else have a bed? I’m guessing not.

He’s in big trouble.

John 12:6
He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.
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Judas spent time with Jesus and saw his miracles. Still handed him over to hostile enemies. The 30 pieces of silver he got wasn’t to feed the poor.
The church will always have it’s enemies.
 
So you are correct in teasing out the hypocrisy in his statement. I know it too. No conversation to bring someone to the faith can be assured simply on the basis of the truth being the truth. Some take compassion, some take reason, many take little nudges, others big nudges. I decided not to point that out to him as I felt it would be the worse thing to do in that situation. I feel like he would best be served by more logical objective arguments than introspective searching… but I could be wrong.

I think I (poorly) tried to get around this argument while still in some way bringing it to his attention when he asked what I did with my “US economic impact money”, which I told him I donated, because I didn’t ask for it nor did I need it, in the hopes he would see how he did not do the same (FYI: while I cannot know his entire economic situation, I can say by all the financial conversations we’ve had, he is doing just fine.)
 
“But the Catholic Church is more than a spiritual institution. Apparently using “the strategy of non-coercive power” (Deus Vult: The Geopolitics of the Catholic Church, 2010), the Church runs 5,500 hospitals, 18,000 clinics, 16,000 homes for the elderly and those with special needs, with 65 percent of them located in underdeveloped and developing countries.”

Yes, this is good. Something he can understand. A business cannot put ALL of its money into assets or it would no longer survive. I tried to make this point but didn’t do such a good job. This makes it much more clear. Thanks @(name removed by moderator)
 
Can you ask him why we shouldn’t sell the parliament buildings? Give the money to the poor?

Oh, is someone using them? All those grandiose buildings! Just for some people to sit at a desk and have arguments. They can do that anywhere.

Should we have hate in our heart when we see these buildings? There are other more pressing matters.
 
Thanks. I didn’t mention that churches use their splendor to give glory to God because I was say ill-prepared on the topic of Christ’s renunciation of wealth. About all I could muster up was that we are all given gifts, whether they be wealth, intelligence, compassion, sports abilities, whatever and as long as we use them for good… and Christ associated with all sorts, from tax collectors (wealthy) to prostitutes.

Thanks.
 
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JoeFreedom said:
He said he fell away from the Church because he had asked a priest one time what they do with their chalices and other items when they are transferred to another a parish and he said that the priest is able to sell those items and take the cash
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The vessels are the property of the Church, not the priest, unless he has a personal chalice he purchased or received as a gift which he could of course do whatever he wanted with.
JoeFreedom said:
So my first question is that true?
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No. And I’m highly suspicious someone would leave the church over THAT. Either he misunderstood or the priest was making a joke or something.

There is an entire book in canon law, Book V, which discusses temporal goods of the Church and the laws the govern them.
JoeFreedom said:
he told me how he despised how the Church (aka: Vatican) uses (hoards) its wealth, and that they should give it all away because they could do so much good with the money and that the Church is supposed to be poor, like Jesus and renounce material possessions and wealth.
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Ok, now you should be catching on that this guy is baiting you. The Church doesn’t have “vast wealth”. As has been debunked over and over again.

Time shake the dust off your shoes.
 
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