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Dorothy
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I would suggest you just pray for your friend and leave it at that.
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Wealth of the Church / Vatican
- Thread starter JoeFreedom
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JoeFreedom
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Sigh. It’s difficult, you know. My neighbor is a great guy. The kind of neighbor you want in every house on your street. My dad is the same way, but somewhere along the way his catechisis went awry, and that is partly (or mainly) because of my grandpa being an atheist while my grandma being a Catholic, but was subserviant to my grandpa, and thus not being able to to give that Catholic upbringing to my dad like he should have, and now he is a fallen away Catholic. He has the same issues with the Church many do (Purgatory, tradition, Mary’s virginity, etc.). It’s not his fault, but I don’t want to give up on my dad, like I don’t want to give up on my neighbor. Perhaps maybe someone who comes at me and says stuff like, Yeah, I’ve heard and learned about God, and it’s stupid… I might dust off the shoes there, but I know my neighbor well enough to think there could be some redemption. Maybe I’m wrong, but I pray I’m not.Time shake the dust off your shoes.
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TK421
Guest
The Vatican isn’t particularly wealthy these days. I think its current net worth is around 15 billion USD, which is a really small figure given the exhaustive list of things on its budget.
Its historical artifacts and artwork could of course be sold for colossal sums of money but then the beauty would not be able to be appreciated by the entire world. Money is a useful tool but it can’t fix everything.
Also, just to be blunt, nobody needs to defend, nor should they defend, the idea that the members of the church have always been responsible and charitable in their financial decisions 100% of the time. They haven’t been. It consists of human beings.
Its historical artifacts and artwork could of course be sold for colossal sums of money but then the beauty would not be able to be appreciated by the entire world. Money is a useful tool but it can’t fix everything.
Also, just to be blunt, nobody needs to defend, nor should they defend, the idea that the members of the church have always been responsible and charitable in their financial decisions 100% of the time. They haven’t been. It consists of human beings.
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1ke
Guest
Well I didn’t mean the neighbor as a whole, just religion as a topic. Maybe I’m wrong, but from what you wrote he didn’t seem open to new information.Sigh. It’s difficult, you know. My neighbor is a great guy. The kind of neighbor you want in every house on your street.
If you feel like there’s some openness, then just pray to the Holy Spirit for the right words to say and dive in.
https://www.questia.com/magazine/1G1-126240209/the-pope-is-rich-and-other-vatican-myths
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otjm
Guest
Many, if not most priests are gifted chalices at ordination, often by family or friends.
When they move from one parish to another, they take their chalice - or chalices if they have been gifted them, with them as it is not a “Church” or “parish” possession, but rather a personal one.
One of the younger priests I know has a chalice with the Last Supper in figures surrounding the cup part; IMHO it is the most beautiful and striking chalice I have seen - and I have seen a whole lot of chalices.
I was in one parish where there was a chalice which appeared to blong to the parish, as it did not go along with the priest when he retired (he was a Jesuit, and as such would not own the chalice short of specific permission of his superior); it remained while the next two priests came and went. They each had their own chalices.
When they move from one parish to another, they take their chalice - or chalices if they have been gifted them, with them as it is not a “Church” or “parish” possession, but rather a personal one.
One of the younger priests I know has a chalice with the Last Supper in figures surrounding the cup part; IMHO it is the most beautiful and striking chalice I have seen - and I have seen a whole lot of chalices.
I was in one parish where there was a chalice which appeared to blong to the parish, as it did not go along with the priest when he retired (he was a Jesuit, and as such would not own the chalice short of specific permission of his superior); it remained while the next two priests came and went. They each had their own chalices.
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JoeFreedom
New member
Sorry if it seems like I was targeting my sigh at you in a negative way. It wasn’t meant that way. It was more of a general sigh in the fact that apologetics is difficult and the very nature that the truth of the gospel cannot take root because of free will.Well I didn’t mean the neighbor as a whole, just religion as a topic.
Edit: I like the “myth” pdf article.
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JoeFreedom
New member
Yes, it’s very true that so much information is disinformation and misinformation, and sometimes outright lies. Much of the dis/misinformation can cause many to fall away and it is very unfortunate, but it does happen, and while on the one hand, we should wipe the dust off our shoes, on the other hand, God never gives up on us. It’s a difficult and delicate balance to walk and as I listen to many of the masters of apologetics, transformation can often take the form of planting many seeds over years or even decades. I hope that because I have a friendship with my neighbor that I can continue to plant those seeds. It’s not that he isn’t Catholic, as he grew up, but somewhere along the way someone gave him bad information and so getting him back to a faithful Catholic may be easier than convincing someone who has been a hardened atheist their entire life.
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tafan2
Guest
Always have to wonder why these people don’t think the stuff in the Louvre, the Met, del Padro, etc should be sold and given to the poor? Why just the Vatican?
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Dan_Defender
Guest
i could understand this criticism if we were in the Middle Ages when the Church had lots of land, power and wealth… remember benefices? remember the Papal states? compared to that, the Church is poor now. The issue of temporal power is well behind us.
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Margaret_Ann
Guest
I posted this on another thread (repeats some of what others posted but here goes):
Byzantine Gospel for Palm Sunday (excerpt):
[3] Mary therefore took a pound of ointment of right spikenard, of great price, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair; and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment. [4] Then one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, he that was about to betray him, said: [5] Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
[6] Now he said this, not because he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and having the purse, carried the things that were put therein. [7] Jesus therefore said: Let her alone, that she may keep it against the day of my burial. [8] For the poor you have always with you; but me you have not always. [9] A great multitude therefore of the Jews knew that he was there; and they came, not for Jesus’ sake only, but that they might see Lazarus, whom he had raised from the dead. [10] But the chief priests thought to kill Lazarus also:
[8] “Me you have not always”: Viz., in a visible manner, as when conversant here on earth; and as we have the poor, whom we may daily assist and relieve.
IOW, Judas Iscariot didn’t care for the poor, he only wanted the money. However, some Scripture commentators say that Judas got his share because 10% of 300 is 30 - and he betrayed Our Lord for 30 pieces of silver.
“Show us, therefore, self-control, lest we too betray Your goodness. O Lord, so sorely tried, glory be to You!” - Passion Matins
Also, in Exodus, God tells Moses that the best is to be given to Him - the first 10% (tithing), the first-fruits, the first-born of cattle etc. You couldn’t offer anything to God that was ugly, deformed (in the case of animals), otherwise you were cheating God and not giving Him what was His due.
People used to get dressed in their Sunday best not just for church but to even go to ball games (like in Adam’s Rib with Spencer Tracy & Katherine Hepburn).
Signing off now. Good night!
Byzantine Gospel for Palm Sunday (excerpt):
[3] Mary therefore took a pound of ointment of right spikenard, of great price, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair; and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment. [4] Then one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, he that was about to betray him, said: [5] Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
[6] Now he said this, not because he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and having the purse, carried the things that were put therein. [7] Jesus therefore said: Let her alone, that she may keep it against the day of my burial. [8] For the poor you have always with you; but me you have not always. [9] A great multitude therefore of the Jews knew that he was there; and they came, not for Jesus’ sake only, but that they might see Lazarus, whom he had raised from the dead. [10] But the chief priests thought to kill Lazarus also:
[8] “Me you have not always”: Viz., in a visible manner, as when conversant here on earth; and as we have the poor, whom we may daily assist and relieve.
IOW, Judas Iscariot didn’t care for the poor, he only wanted the money. However, some Scripture commentators say that Judas got his share because 10% of 300 is 30 - and he betrayed Our Lord for 30 pieces of silver.
“Show us, therefore, self-control, lest we too betray Your goodness. O Lord, so sorely tried, glory be to You!” - Passion Matins
Also, in Exodus, God tells Moses that the best is to be given to Him - the first 10% (tithing), the first-fruits, the first-born of cattle etc. You couldn’t offer anything to God that was ugly, deformed (in the case of animals), otherwise you were cheating God and not giving Him what was His due.
People used to get dressed in their Sunday best not just for church but to even go to ball games (like in Adam’s Rib with Spencer Tracy & Katherine Hepburn).
Signing off now. Good night!
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InThePew
Guest
Certainly a poor Church is something which Pope Francis has talked about many times and has given much more prominence to the role of the Papal Almoner. The Vatican (which is not “the Church”) does admittedly have serious issues with financial management (including over some recent property dealings) but I’d attribute this more to incompetence and lack of financial knowledge than anything else.Secondly, leapfrogging on the wealth issue, he told me how he despised how the Church (aka: Vatican) uses (hoards) its wealth, and that they should give it all away because they could do so much good with the money and that the Church is supposed to be poor
What a lot of people aren’t aware of is that, besides keeping the lights on, streets clean and paying the workforce, Vatican funds are used to help dioceses in poor countries which basically otherwise wouldn’t be able to exist because of the severely limited amounts which they collect locally It enables priests from these dioceses to live and study in Rome and for the bishops to travel to regional meetings etc (or, in the case of some of the more remote places, just to get away every now and again). What matters, isn’t how much money the Church does or doesn’t have but rather how it’s used.
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EssentialBeing
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I think most people have an issue with the wealth of the Vatican & its entire catholic infrastructure, because of the image of power & wealth gluttony. The world sees how the hierarchy live & the extreme disparities between, not only their poorer catholic brethren but the entire human species
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stpurl
Guest
Really? All the cardinals, bishops, and priests (your ‘hierarchy’) in the whole wide world live in power and wealth gluttony? I’ll have to tell my parish priest that he needs to get rid of the 2006 Hyundai that had been donated for his use and do his 4 parish rounds (a distance of close to 100 miles to go from one to another and back) on a salvaged bike from the landfill, trade his own clothing from his preordination days for some rags from a Dropbox, lest he offend the entire human species.
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EssentialBeing
Guest
The smaller parishes with very little resources, rely on hand outs & goodwill for their survival. The wealth gluttons are those that sit on top of the chain. The wealth disparity between the leadership & their lower echelons are there for the world to see. It is easy to recognize sections of the church doing it easy compared to those doing it tough.priests (your ‘hierarchy’) in the whole wide world live in power and wealth gluttony?
Yes I agree with you as my point was the difference between those that have & those that don’t haveThe world sees how the hierarchy live & the extreme disparities between, not only their poorer catholic brethren but the entire human species
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stpurl
Guest
The thing is, I wonder exactly how many of the supposed high living priests (which would be mostly cardinals or very well connected bishops) there are actually who truly are gluttons of wealth.
For example, the Pope (and this is not simply Francis, it’s all of them) doesn’t waft around in jewels and silks, sit on golden thrones in his home and eat caviar.
Most people who own old homes will tell you that they are extremely expensive to keep up just because they’re old. But buildings in Rome aren’t just old buildings—the Papal buildings and the ornate churches were made and donated to priests and popes from long ago. The pope and the priests do not OWN these things. So assuming you could find somebody to take down say some of those ‘expensive buildings’ (which would itself cost $$$$), the pope still has to live somewhere. What do you do, build a cheap building that will have to be torn down again in 50 years for another?
And the vestments worn for Masses; sure they cost money to store and be cleaned. They’re also treasures of beauty, like the churches they’re seen in, that all the people who come to Mass or watch on TV can see. For free. No need to pay high museum fees.
When we have a President of the US, or we have the Prime Minister of the UK, or the Emperor of Japan, while they serve their terms they live in ornate buildings. Most of the furnishings belong to the BUILDING. They stay there when the President or PM ‘moves on’. Often people will donate cars for the leaders to drive, or there is a private “Air Force 1” or whatever. Whoever is president doesn’t ‘take those things’ with him. They are there for the service of the person currently fulfilling the FUNCTION.
I don’t know why people expect the leader of a billion Catholics to live like a 1st century AD Jewish carpenter, complete with ‘no roof over the head’ (but who did accept gifts such as costly perfume, given for his ‘function’ as the Messiah), and to expect that even though 2000 years have passed and the entire world has changed, the Pope is somehow supposed to live in a supposedly ‘cheap’ robe, write on papyrus, and conduct ‘underground’ services in a cave.
For example, the Pope (and this is not simply Francis, it’s all of them) doesn’t waft around in jewels and silks, sit on golden thrones in his home and eat caviar.
Most people who own old homes will tell you that they are extremely expensive to keep up just because they’re old. But buildings in Rome aren’t just old buildings—the Papal buildings and the ornate churches were made and donated to priests and popes from long ago. The pope and the priests do not OWN these things. So assuming you could find somebody to take down say some of those ‘expensive buildings’ (which would itself cost $$$$), the pope still has to live somewhere. What do you do, build a cheap building that will have to be torn down again in 50 years for another?
And the vestments worn for Masses; sure they cost money to store and be cleaned. They’re also treasures of beauty, like the churches they’re seen in, that all the people who come to Mass or watch on TV can see. For free. No need to pay high museum fees.
When we have a President of the US, or we have the Prime Minister of the UK, or the Emperor of Japan, while they serve their terms they live in ornate buildings. Most of the furnishings belong to the BUILDING. They stay there when the President or PM ‘moves on’. Often people will donate cars for the leaders to drive, or there is a private “Air Force 1” or whatever. Whoever is president doesn’t ‘take those things’ with him. They are there for the service of the person currently fulfilling the FUNCTION.
I don’t know why people expect the leader of a billion Catholics to live like a 1st century AD Jewish carpenter, complete with ‘no roof over the head’ (but who did accept gifts such as costly perfume, given for his ‘function’ as the Messiah), and to expect that even though 2000 years have passed and the entire world has changed, the Pope is somehow supposed to live in a supposedly ‘cheap’ robe, write on papyrus, and conduct ‘underground’ services in a cave.
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FiveLinden
Guest
the Vatican should practice 100% transparency of its accounts. Its practices, which are slowly changing, are modelled on those of absolute monarchies (which of course it is) but the expectation of ordinary Church members and others is largely modelled on what is expected of democratic governments and charities operating in free economies.
We are all ideated to the Vatican maintaining its art and architecture and literary treasures and making them available. Countries and businesses profiting from this should make a contribution.
tell everyone everything about the ‘Vatican wealth’. then there won’t be so much speculation.
We are all ideated to the Vatican maintaining its art and architecture and literary treasures and making them available. Countries and businesses profiting from this should make a contribution.
tell everyone everything about the ‘Vatican wealth’. then there won’t be so much speculation.
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EssentialBeing
Guest
Exactly my point. My hierarchy starts & ends with the local parish & their practitioners, how many of us have access to the bishops & cardinals?high living priests (which would be mostly cardinals or very well connected bishops) there are actually who truly are gluttons of wealth.
It sound like vanity to meAnd the vestments worn for Masses; sure they cost money to store and be cleaned. They’re also treasures of beauty, like the churches
Its called modesty, as I am sure no one wants them to live in squalor, but most would agree that the cardinals & bishops need to do more to show they are part of the ordinary, not the extraordinary.I don’t know why people expect the leader of a billion Catholics to live like a 1st century AD Jewish carpenter, complete with ‘no roof over the head’
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