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Sultan_Of_Swing
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I am referring to the Vatican Bank.
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Joe_5859
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I’m familiar with the articles about the Vatican Bank. In the CNS article, they state that they are going to be publishing annual reports starting in October and that the new head of the bank hasn’t detected any wrongdoing.
What more could they be doing?
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aemcpa
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The Vatican Bank is an entity separate from the Church; it is the work of man and subject to error.
The reform of the Vatican Bank is at the top of Francis’ list, and one of the five new board members following the ouster of the prior regime is Carl Anderson, the Supreme Knight of the Knights of Columbus, a man whose ethical integrity and personal holiness are beyond reproach. I have confidence that real headway will be made in short order.
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bitznbitez
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In my lifetime the Church was involved in toppling marxism from eastern europe and it spread into Russia. It has fought evil on many fronts.
Do you think if you let evil know how you are positioning your assets you might be giving away your hand ? Thats why evil wants to know what the Church is doing with its money.
Do you think if you let evil know how you are positioning your assets you might be giving away your hand ? Thats why evil wants to know what the Church is doing with its money.
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tafan
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Well, there is are a couple of problems with this. First of all, you have compared the Vatican Bank, not even the Holy See itself, with Protestant churches. Protestant churches, for the most part, operate on a local level only. So to compare apples and oranges, you should be comparing the Protestant churches with the Catholic Parishes and Dioceses. In this case, you will likely find the Catholic parishes and dioceses more transparent than their protestant counterparts.
The second problem is that, taken as a whole, the finances of the Holy See and the Vatican bank are a extremely small part of the Catholic Church finances; as the vast majority of the work of the Church (and hence the money involved operating the Church) is at the local level, ie parishes and dioceses. So to really judge how transparent the Church is, one should focus on the parishes and diocese.
The third problem, is that you are ignoring the financial reports that the Holy See makes every year, here is the press briefing for 2001 (2012 is due out in July) news.va/en/news/holy-see-financial-statements-for-2011
The fourth problem is that you are ignoring the fact that the Vatican Bank will start releasing public financial statements this year. forums.catholic-questions.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=10829754
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tafan
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Sultan of Swing, I have chosen two Protestant institutions that operate at a level above the local church: one being the Southern Baptist Convention, the other being the Church of England. I am having a much more difficult time finding any financial reporting information for these, than I have for the Holy See. Could you point me in the right direction?
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Sultan_Of_Swing
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If they are going to start releasing public financial statements, then that’s great. I was just wondering why they were so secretive for all this time, but if they are reforming things then that’s good. The link you provided however leads to the ‘new reply’ page for this thread, haha.
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Sultan_Of_Swing
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How has the Church used its assets to topple marxism exactly?
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tafan
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I am just wondering why you are so fixated on the Vatican Bank, when you started the thread saying explicitly it was not about monetary wealth, “Now I’m not speaking about pure monetary wealth. I’m speaking about the grandeur of the buildings themselves and all the wealth that is evident within Vatican City.” Not withstanding the change in position, why the fixation on the Vatican Bank. It is admittedly, not a strong point of the Church when it comes to financial management and transparency, but it truly one of the few weak points. Is it that it is the only think you can find to be critical of when it comes to the wealth of the Church?
I am sorry about the bad link provided. Here is the correct one economywatch.com/in-the-news/vatican-bank-to-begin-publishing-annual-financial-reports.17-05.html .
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tafan
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Through clandestine support of the Polish Solidarity movement. Through the trips of JP II to Poland in the late 70s and 80s. These were certainly not cheap trips, if you study them all, you will have to come to the conclusion that they cost a great deal of money. June 2-9th, 1979: 8 days that changed the world.
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HB11
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:thumbsup:Yes I agree, read them. I love the quote from Pope Francis. In my experience folks that bring up the Rome wealth stuff are usually the same who have laundry list of why they don’t come to Church.I usually have a reply which is not unkind but sort of firm bout the gold Chalices,etc. I think getting up in age and not so healthy makes me more direct , cutting through the baloney.
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Sultan_Of_Swing
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My question changed, because my original question about the grandeur of the buildings etc. was answered, and answered well at that. Sorry that I didn’t clarify that.
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Becca3
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I wanted to stay and read all on the thread so I better make a comment before I lose the thread. lol. Anyways, I heard from a couple of people who had near death experiences that in Heaven there was a pavement full of gold. The whole place was shimmering with gold.
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tafan
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So the Vatican Bank is the only way you can be critical of the Church with regards to its wealth? That is fair, but then why the comparisons to Protestant churches?
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Ridgerunner
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I’m not persuaded that the Vatican bank owes any of us an accounting. It’s a Church institution. It’s not listed on the NYSE. It’s not preparing to “go public”. If it needs some kind of reform, then it’s up to the Pope to see that it gets done. It’s not up to me, and certainly not up to those who like to critique it for “lack of transparency”.
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tafan
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Technically speaking, you are right. It owes us no transparency, legally or morally, beyond the moral obligation to avoid scandal. And this is a true moral obligation on all of us, and Church institutions. If the only way to avoid the scandal is to be financially transparent to some degree, it must do so.
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Ridgerunner
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But don’t you think people who don’t like the Church will consider it scandalous no matter what it discloses? If it was the best run institution on earth, invested in nothing but “safe harbor” accounts, critics of the Church will simply say (witness the cause of this thread) it should give it all away. If it takes any risks, critics will say it’s crazily risking the contributions of the faithful.
Personally, I would just as soon it was totally opaque. I trust the Pope a lot more than I trust the media and the Church’s enemies.
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R1ch4rd
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The Vatican Bank is not a true church institution in that it is not owned by the church but rather is affiliated with it.
It’s not listed on the NYSE because it uses the church to maintain it’s non profit status and while all profits are fed back to the church, the legality of obtaining some of those profits is questionable. Over the years, it’s been accused of money laundering for several mobs
Pope Benedict started the clean up by removing Tedeshi as head and appointing von Frieberg just before stepping down. As a private banking institution it should not be exempt from accepted accounting procedures to maintain it’s tax exempt status…more here.
forums.catholic-questions.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=10830388
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Becca3
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So, it is true that there is a Vatican Bank underneath St. Peter’s Basilica? Like in the movie “Angels & Demons”. It showed a vast labyrinth of rooms that houses the Church’s assets like the bank and artwork, etc…
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Ridgerunner
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The Church and its institutions are always going to be criticized by some, condemned by others, no matter what.
And if its profits go to the works of the Church, why should it be obliged by any government other than that of Vatican City where it’s located, to follow any other government’s preferred procedures? Many, many churches in the U.S. don’t follow standard accounting procedures. They, and many private foundations are not at all “transparent” in their operations. Lots of countries banking systems aren’t.
And if Pope Benedict could remove Tedeschi, then the Church is in control of the institution, whether one calls it “affiliated” or something else.
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