Wealth of the Vatican

[tafan]

I’m not even keen on Finance Committees. The Church is not a corporation in which we are all stockholders.

I was on the board of a bank and am a non-board consultant to another presently. As such, I have long taken it upon myself to review the results of other banks, and I can assure you that while one who really knows the banking world can tell a lot from the movement of financials, one can often miss the main thing. You really have to have better information. Sometimes you have to make judgments based on experience about the wisdom of even sound investments. That’s one thing the regulators quite often get wrong because they have never actually worked in banks for the most part, and do not understand the operations of many borrowers.

So, are we down to wanting some kind of financials published on the IRW solely for the benefit of those complaining that it’s not sufficiently “transparent”? If so, what complaint will we honor next?

Ok, we can agree to disagree on the value of the Vatican Bank’s upcoming release of financial statements. It really is a rather small fraction of the Church’s financial affairs.

But why do you not like finance committees? Their existence on both the parish and diocesan level are matters of canon law. Do you really expect Bishop’s and Priests to be financial experts and be able to provide over-site to employees managing the bulk of the Church’s material assets? Or do you expect Bishops and Priests to manage it directly, because they are more trustworthy?

 

[Ridgerunner]

Ok, we can agree to disagree on the value of the Vatican Bank’s upcoming release of financial statements. It really is a rather small fraction of the Church’s financial affairs.

But why do you not like finance committees? Their existence on both the parish and diocesan level are matters of canon law. Do you really expect Bishop’s and Priests to be financial experts and be able to provide over-site to employees managing the bulk of the Church’s material assets? Or do you expect Bishops and Priests to manage it directly, because they are more trustworthy?

In my diocese there is always at least one financial manager, usually a layperson who has had extensive bank experience and is now retired from that industry. So far, they have been remarkably good people by history. Most bishops are pretty experienced people and have proved themselves as managers in the past. Parish priests nowadays can’t really move a lot of money around. The money gets sent to the diocese which then doles it back out for the necessary expenses of the parish and makes the decision concerning extraordinary expenditures. In my diocese, at least, all investment is done by the diocesan office.

Parish committees normally don’t add a whole lot to that. In some, they can be useful in fundraising events, but that’s really a separate thing. Lay involvement in management of Church affairs can be problematic, and can be the cause of a lot of ill will. In private companies, differences of opinion can get quite heated and people get replaced. That’s tough to do in a parish without causing ill will, even factionalism. Sometimes those committees are the cause of ruptures between the parish priest and one or more committee person. I have seen it.

My impression is not that committees are required by Canon Law, but are permitted at the discretion of the relevant authority which is normally the bishop.

 

[tafan]

…
My impression is not that committees are required by Canon Law, but are permitted at the discretion of the relevant authority which is normally the bishop.

Pastoral councils or parish councils are permitted, finance councils are required.

Can. 492 §1. In every diocese a Finance council is to be established, offer which the diocesan bishop himself or his delegate presides and which consists of at least three members of the Christian faithful truly expert in Financial affairs and civil law, outstanding in integrity, and appointed by the bishop.

§2. Members of the Finance council are to be appointed for Five years, but at the end of this period they can be appointed for other Five year terms.

§3. Persons who are related to the bishop up to the fourth degree of consanguinity or affnity are excluded from the Finance council.

Can. 493 In addition to the functions entrusted to it in Book V, The Temporal Goods of the Church, the Finance council prepares each year, according to the directions of the diocesan bishop, a budget of the income and expenditures which are foreseen for the entire governance of the diocese in the coming year and at the end of the year examines an account of the revenues and expenses.

Can. 537 In each parish there is to be a finance council which is governed, in addition to universal law, by norms issued by the diocesan bishop and in which the Christian faithful, selected according to these same norms, are to assist the pastor in the administration of the goods of the parish, without prejudice to the prescript of ⇒ can. 532.

 

[tafan]

ridgerunner:

In my diocese there is always at least one financial manager, usually a layperson who has had extensive bank experience and is now retired from that industry. So far, they have been remarkably good people by history. Most bishops are pretty experienced people and have proved themselves as managers in the past. Parish priests nowadays can’t really move a lot of money around. The money gets sent to the diocese which then doles it back out for the necessary expenses of the parish and makes the decision concerning extraordinary expenditures. In my diocese, at least, all investment is done by the diocesan office.

I am skeptical if all of the money gets sent to the diocese and then doled back out to the parishes for expenses. That would be very unusual for a diocese to be run, I have never heard of that before.

All bank accounts of a Parish, the signature authority is of the pastor. Even large captical campaign accounts are maintained at the parish level.
This is always been done this way, and more so now than ever as Bishops only want to be seen as “owner’s in trust” of parish goods in order to protect parishes from diocesan lawsuits.

My experience is that finance councils are very important and useful. I cannot imagine a pastor not wanting a well functioning finance council.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Pastoral councils or parish councils are permitted, finance councils are required.

I see. Quoting the section:

“Can. 537 In each parish there is to be a finance council which is governed, in addition to universal law, by norms issued by the diocesan bishop and in which the Christian faithful, selected according to these same norms, are to assist the pastor in the administration of the goods of the parish, without prejudice to the prescript of ⇒ can. 532.”

Canon 532 makes it clear that the pastor has ultimate authority over the finances, subject to the authority of his ordinary, and so on. The parish committee, then, is advisory only, at most.

Seems a bit to me like having eight eucharistic ministers to aid the priest in giving communion to 20 people. I guess it gives people a sense of participation; of contribution, however little it may be needed.

But it’s not mine to question the Church, the pastor or the bishop in either thing, notwithstanding that I see little to be gained by them.

 

[LainieR]

Actually most Protestant churches give their members a fiscal report every year and try to be as transparent as possible.

The Catholic Churches in my state do the same and also note in the bulletin what was collected during Mass the week before.

Is the Vatican Bank a part of the Church, and, if it is, and you say they should be transparent, and if it were your bank, would you want the details of your account made transparent?

You can probably tell that the brouhaha over the Vatican Bank escapes me.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I am skeptical if all of the money gets sent to the diocese and then doled back out to the parishes for expenses. That would be very unusual for a diocese to be run, I have never heard of that before.

All bank accounts of a Parish, the signature authority is of the pastor. Even large captical campaign accounts are maintained at the parish level.
This is always been done this way, and more so now than ever as Bishops only want to be seen as “owner’s in trust” of parish goods in order to protect parishes from diocesan lawsuits.

My experience is that finance councils are very important and useful. I cannot imagine a pastor not wanting a well functioning finance council.

Some pastors are not too crazy about parish finance committees.

Some time ago I was asked to attend a finance committee meeting at which one of the finance managers for the diocese was present. It was about a large project and potential cash flows to finance it. I was just an advisor, invited by the pastor because he was sensing that what happened would happen.

At the outset, the diocesan officer made it abundantly clear (to me, at least) that the diocese was going to control the funding and the project itself. Some of the committee people didn’t get the message at first, though it became progressively clear. Some of the committee people were not at all pleased by that revelation. Some of them obviously had no clue at all as to what it took to raise the sums required and how difficult it would be to replace, simultaneously, the funds on deposit with the diocese for the parish. Nothing either the rep or I could say moved some of those people. Some really were displeased that they couldn’t just do whatever they wanted.

The diocesan financial officer ultimately did what she believed was the right thing to do. I expect she left wondering why in the world she had the meeting in the first place. Well, I’m sure the purpose was to give people that 'team" feeling about it all; that sense of involvement.

Frankly, the diocesan financial officer had more brains than all the rest of us put together. I was quite glad the real decisionmaking was where it was.

 

[tafan]

Around here, the finance council at a parish is not only advisory, in accordance with canon law, the Bishop has directed specific functions to the finance council and the pastor, while bearing ultimate responsibility, cannot make certain decisions. For example, the pastor cannot decide on a major new construction project without the consent of his finance council, and then the consent of the Bishop. But the Bishop will not consider it if the parish finance council has approved it. The finance council also is required to approve the parish yearly budget, and is required to monitor the budget as the year progresses. The finance council also has such duties as preparing parish financial reports, which must be in the bulletin once a year. Now, all of this is determined by the Bishop, but I think it is all rather standard across dioceses.

 

[LainieR]

You can always invite them to remove the log out of their eye as they criticize the Vatican in their air conditioned, comfyand safe, disease free house as they type up their nonsense behind a fancy computer on the internet, and ask what they are doing and have done to feed the worlds poor.

…and then, it doesnt compare at all to what the Church has done for the poor throughout the ages.

I wish there were a ‘Like’ or ‘Thanks’ button.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Around here, the finance council at a parish is not only advisory, in accordance with canon law, the Bishop has directed specific functions to the finance council and the pastor, while bearing ultimate responsibility, cannot make certain decisions. For example, the pastor cannot decide on a major new construction project without the consent of his finance council, and then the consent of the Bishop. But the Bishop will not consider it if the parish finance council has approved it. The finance council also is required to approve the parish yearly budget, and is required to monitor the budget as the year progresses. The finance council also has such duties as preparing parish financial reports, which must be in the bulletin once a year. Now, all of this is determined by the Bishop, but I think it is all rather standard across dioceses.

Obviously, there can be differences.

 

[R1ch4rd]

Seems a bit to me like having eight eucharistic ministers to aid the priest in giving communion to 20 people. I guess it gives people a sense of participation; of contribution, however little it may be needed.

But it’s not mine to question the Church, the pastor or the bishop in either thing, notwithstanding that I see little to be gained by them.

I’m an usher and board member of our parish and it’s policy that two ushers shall always transport the collection to the sacristy where it is placed in a sealed evidence type bag in front of the presiding priest. That bag is then signed by the priest and both ushers and sent off to the bank to be counted. This was put in place to protect the ushers from any question whatsoever and the amount in the bag makes no difference. Some may look at this as overkill just as some may look at the policy of two adults in any closed room with a child, which I believe is also church policy.

Some of the committee people were not at all pleased by that revelation. Some of them obviously had no clue at all as to what it took to raise the sums required and how difficult it would be to replace, simultaneously, the funds on deposit with the diocese for the parish. Nothing either the rep or I could say moved some of those people. Some really were displeased that they couldn’t just do whatever they wanted.

And yet this is what your proposing the Vatican Bank be allowed to do.

 

[LainieR]

I hear the question about the wealth of the Church, too, and ironically often asked by someone wearing gold, diamonds, and pearls.

A few thoughts: When the Church commisioned these artworks, they paid for them, and the art has since that time become priceless. Then, I doubt that any artist or architect became rich from creating these works. They gave their best to glorify God.

There are many posts in this thread referring to the Old Testament descriptions of the temple, so I thought I’d add the descriptions of Heaven from the Book of the Revelation.

The voice that spoke to John while he was praying, stood among seven golden lampstands while wearing a golden girdle and having feet of burnished bronze. Rev 1

The One sitting on the throne, looking like jasper-stone and sardius, was surrounded by an emerald rainbow and 24 elders wearing golden crowns. Rev 4

The four living creatures and twenty-four elders have golden bowls full of incense. Rev 5

Another angel with a golden censer with much incense to add to the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar that is before the throne. Rev 8

The walls of the New Jerusalem are jasper, the city is gold. The foundation stones are jasper, sapphire, chalcedony, emerald, sardonyx, sardius, chrysolite, beryl, topaz, chrysoprase, jacinth, amethyst. The gates are pearls. The streets are gold. Rev 21

 

[R1ch4rd]

I hear the question about the wealth of the Church, too, and ironically often asked by someone wearing gold, diamonds, and pearls.

A few thoughts: When the Church commisioned these artworks, they paid for them, and the art has since that time become priceless. Then, I doubt that any artist or architect became rich from creating these works. They gave their best to glorify God.

There are many posts in this thread referring to the Old Testament descriptions of the temple, so I thought I’d add the descriptions of Heaven from the Book of the Revelation.

The voice that spoke to John while he was praying, stood among seven golden lampstands while wearing a golden girdle and having feet of burnished bronze. Rev 1

The One sitting on the throne, looking like jasper-stone and sardius, was surrounded by an emerald rainbow and 24 elders wearing golden crowns. Rev 4

The four living creatures and twenty-four elders have golden bowls full of incense. Rev 5

Another angel with a golden censer with much incense to add to the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar that is before the throne. Rev 8

The walls of the New Jerusalem are jasper, the city is gold. The foundation stones are jasper, sapphire, chalcedony, emerald, sardonyx, sardius, chrysolite, beryl, topaz, chrysoprase, jacinth, amethyst. The gates are pearls. The streets are gold. Rev 21

Yup, I’ve got some gold. One small band on my left hand and like some of the art, it’s priceless. In all your descriptions, the gold etc. was proudly displayed to honor God. If you look back on this thread, you’ll find the largest question regarding the church’s wealth doesn’t involve buildings or artifacts displayed but rather currency held in a bank with a scandalous past, shrouded in secrecy, not even owned by the church. Your talking about religious relics of Catholicism built to honor God. I’m talking about secular money and I really don’t care how much or how little is there but if it gives us a bad name, it should be fixed.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Departed from topic and closed.