Wealth, Poverty, and Morality

[2ndRateMind]

Horrible idea. God wants people to earn their living through an honest livelihood. All you are proposing is communism.

The redistribution I propose is voluntary. There is nothing voluntary about communism. And therein lies a significant difference.

And why would you not want the world’s wealth, God’s providence, distributed equitably?

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[Gab123]

The redistribution I propose is voluntary. There is nothing voluntary about communism. And therein lies a significant difference.

Well if it’s voluntary why aren’t they doing it now? Again Why should everyone get a free check? What happened to work? A better idea would be to spread education and opportunity for economies to thrive and for people to find work. We already have plenty of people receiving free checks in the mail in this country and it fosters delinquency. Work work work, earn a living by the sweat of your brow is what God wants.the poor that Jesus spoke bout were orphans and widows and the lame and the blind and those who cannot work. As St Paul said:

6 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not live according to the teaching[a] you received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, 8 nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. 9 We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you to imitate. 10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.”

11 We hear that some among you are idle and disruptive. They are not busy; they are busybodies. 12 Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the food they eat. 13 And as for you, brothers and sisters, never tire of doing what is good.

14 Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed. 15 Yet do not regard them as an enemy, but warn them as you would a fellow believer. 1 Thes. 3:6-15

 

[dochawk]

So, is it your contention that private vice is public virtue? In other words, is the engine of selfishness, in your opinion, necessary to the current level of the economic amount and growth?

According to every scrap of economic data gathered for the last couple of centuries, yes. People respond to incentives to the point that there is a slightly increased death rate before an increase in the capital gains tax!

Can you conceive of another system, less selfish, that might provide the same extent of global economic magnitude and growth?

No. It would require a planner or director that knows better how to use resources than those that know and use the resources on a daily basis.

It would require “planning” of innovation and risk-taking.

This was the failed theory of the USSR and central planning . . .

hawk

 

[2ndRateMind]

That’s interesting, dochawk. I do not advocate a central planner or director, telling us all how to spend our own money. That would be quite horrible.

But I can conceive of a kingdom of heaven on earth, where each of us serves the interests of each other, rather than pursuing our own selfish gain. A bit like living in a loving family, but rather than that consisting of only one’s nearest and dearest, consisting of the whole of humanity. And, idealistic and unrealistic though that might be, it is not inconsistent with Christianity, and so that system of all of us looking out for the needs and desires of everyone else, would be what I would advocate.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[philipl]

There are things that wont work with this idea. The rich became rich because they saw an opportunity and took it. They created wealth, they grew the pie.

Your system will remove incentives to create new ideas that will improve the standard of living. No people wont do it out of the goodness of their heart.

 

[Theo520]

The redistribution I propose is voluntary.

Not clear why you are bothering to propose anything voluntary.

We already got those instructions,

You really sound like you want it to be mandatory

 

[2ndRateMind]

Not clear why you are bothering to propose anything voluntary.

Well, mainly because I am not only proposing a voluntary redistribution of wealth, but also give an estimate of the extent of voluntary redistribution necessary, such that absolute poverty is eradicated. And that is $X world wealth / Y world population = $Z wealth per person.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[Theo520]

I think it’s been clearly shown that your vision is only temporary.

How frequently should we repeat your ‘voluntary’ redistribution? What is your timeline.

Also, if Christ wasn’t able to achieve universal redistribution with his message, what is your strategy to ‘convince’ people to redistribute their wealth?

And can I get a job managing the redistribution.

 

[Kei]

Good luck with that.

But a serious issue is that many in poverty are being surrounded by war lords of sorts, stealing their supplies.

Not to mention other difficulties that arise in many levels. For instance, how is this to take place at all?

 

[2ndRateMind]

And can I get a job managing the redistribution?

Ha Ha! Unfortunately not. It is a fundamental principle of charitable donations that it is up to each individual to decide where, and to who, their money goes. And seeing as (s)he will want most ‘bang for their buck’, and be very interested in how much good their donation does, that is probably no bad thing.

Best wishes, 2RM

 

[Theo520]

sure, the donations are voluntary,
but you still need a system to manage the redistribution

 

[2ndRateMind]

but you still need a system to manage the redistribution.

OK. I use a microfinance charity called Deki. (google deki for the site: I still can’t post links yet, being still a newbie). The model is: you lend (not donate) to a budding entrepreneur in some poorer part of Africa. When the loan is repaid, you get the option to relend to someone else, or reclaim your money. In this way, persistently reloaned, even a small amount of cash down can help a whole load of people.

I am sure they would welcome your involvement, as either a lender or as a worker. They are in Bristol, UK.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[Theo520]

Deki doesn’t ensure an equitable redistribution, you are resorting to capitalism and failing to act according to your words. Some of those loan recipients will become wealthy by local standards.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Some of those loan recipients will become wealthy by local standards.

Seems to me to be a better result than all of them being poor, by any standard.

And I am not a frothy-mouthed, bug-eyed anti-capitalist. I recognise that the free market has delivered unparalleled prosperity to certain parts of the world. I just want to extend that prosperity to all parts of the world.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[Theo520]

except they aren’t all poor, by any standard. You really need to get out and travel to some of these countries you want to save with your redistribution of wealth.

 

[rose321]

Meanwhile, the richest 1% of the world own as much as the remaining 99% put together. And, according to Oxfam, last year the rich got even richer, while the poor did not.

I propose a simple, just, fair, equitable solution.

Respectfully opinion only. Pondering on

Greed is it the root of all evils?

Greed is never satisfied, explains why 1% hold all the wealth of the world and the larger in numbers do not?

Greed does it not create poverty and Greed also maintains that poverty for their own self interest?

The larger in numbers can be satisfied, they seek not great wealth, but only a honest days work for an honest day wage, to be able to provided for their love ones, their families needs and to enjoy the pleasures of life Mother Nature freely provides around us>>like a huge Garden, playground?

For Greed enough is never enough and Greed is never satisfied?

Greed has replaced wealth $$ in exchanged to be of far greater value >>>>>then Human Life itself, has it not?

Mother Earth the richest of us all has provided >>freely>>>for all Human Beings and all Life Forms on earth, to be continually nourished by her Natural Resources given >>>>freely>>>>which was to be distributed equally to all.

No excuse why Human Beings today hunger still and go in need of want?
Now more then ever before, with all new tech, can go to the moon, yet fail to provide the means, in what is needed into all Nations on earth, no matter what the Natural conditions are.

The world is out of order, because of Greed?
Off balanced, because of Greed?
Greed, is it using unbalanced scales of justice, maybe?

Unrighteous laws created that only benefit the few at the very expense of the larger in numbers, would this be true?

Greed being the Root cause of poverty and Greed having within the>>

lack of human morality?
lack of empathy>.harden hearts of stone?
lack hospitality towards others
lack knowing what true wealth is >>Wisdom, nor has attain such?
lack knowing that Greed it self has become gluttons, being never satisfied?
lack humility within, desiring self worship at all cost?

Righteous Kings their nations prospered and cared for their citizens, those who were not righteous kings served for their own self interest their nations and the nations around them suffered and to be found in want, is this true recorded Historically?

Jesus did he know fully that Greed was the root cause, that had created
poverty in his time and Greed continues to do so today?

Jesus did he not know Greed was the root cause of poverty and that Greed maintains that poverty, for their own self interest of the few?

Jesus simple solution >>>was to rebuke boldly, harshly, strongly take a stand, make known to all, by exposing the unrighteous works created by Greed, by bringing Greed into the light, did he not?

Peace

 

[IsaiahSpirit]

Peace and warm regards.
Poverty is such a tragic thing, and we are not only commissioned to share The Gospel,
but to provide earthly needs as best as possible. We cannot be overly concerned with
the rich who just want to wax rich. But we could have, and should provide sustained
exhortation for Godly men to gradually shift the bureaucratic monstrosity of generational
cycle of only feeling somewhat vested by ‘the dole,’ that those trying for a govermental
guided ‘Great Society,’ brought about. I’ve been personally acquainted with some of these emotionally hurting people. So just like stereotyping most business persons as greedy living ‘large’ money grabbers — we shouldn’t stereotype all of the poor as lazy
living off taxpayers slothful people. Yes, there are those who fall into those categories.
But there is so much language on both sides that make general attacks on God given
human dignity of persons who hear these things. And it is especially harmful when
coming from followers of The Lord Jesus Christ. I give to a grassroots Catholic organization called ‘Mercy For Life, Africa’ which is in Uganda. That is needed all over the world - and some kind of transformation for the industrialized nations.
It took decades, and generations for the current sad state of affairs to come to pass.
And it would take a serious commitment as per Matthew 25:31 on onward, the Epistle
of James, and many Scriptures for sustained business (granting job training and
‘apprenticeships’) minded Christians along with
other care givers to help bring about a Gospel Evangelizing true change. It would have
to be a monumental task taken to the hedgerows and highways to every neighborhood,
using people of every background trusted by the people that live there.
Will this end all poverty, even if taken up in a huge way? No, but it would help evangelize
The Gospel and Judaeo Christian morality that asserts the God given dignity and sacredness of every human life from the moment of conception.
Will it happen in an increasingly recreating world exalting personal comfort, probably not in a big way. But we can try. All things are possible to God.

God help us wake up from the slumber! It seems as though those directly opposed to The Gospel and those with agendas contrary to The Gospel become much more of ‘one mind,’ than Judaeo Christians. It is all part of a ‘strong delusion,’ allowed by God.
And it is objectively true that there is much proverbially ‘hiding behind stained glassed windows,’ with here is the Gospel, go in peace. We need an army of Christian soldiers.
There are plenty of organizations within the Church to spread to the farthest reaches
of our society and the earth. The Vincent de Paul Society, Good Counsel Homes, Sisters Of Life, Missionaries of The Poor, Missionaries of Charity, and so on. I won’t bore you with my deep emotional neediness from childhood to a good part of my adulthood that
steered me away from directly being part of one of those things, but if I had my life to live
over, I certainly would have discerned long and hard regarding one of those things
being my life’s vocation.
God Bless, and have a wonderful day.

 

[IsaiahSpirit]

Personally, I convey the compassionate natural law morality in every venue when I cannot
directly share the Gospel. The last several decades blurred that using the plight of the lower classes — and it seems as though many have not learned from history the danger of that;
so we continue to live under the dictatorship of moral relativism. We can rail at the darkness, but this was allowed by Church goers over the decades. And it will not begin
to change without a concerted united sustained effort to change it; even using powerful
people who come into power who by nature of them being available; are best at the time
to help facilitate change.
God help us! I pray we receive a Sign from Heaven for a great awakening.

 

[dochawk]

But I can conceive of a kingdom of heaven on earth, where each of us serves the interests of each other, rather than pursuing our own selfish gain.

It’s been done–and the size limits are reasonably well known. The early Christians did this, as did various 20th century utopians. As long has you have 100% of the membership committed and fully on board, sure. 99% won’t cut it . . . and the evidence of the friction is right there in the Epistles.

hawk

 

[MonteRCMS]

If you make the equal voluntary redistribution, then what is to prevent some local warlord from taking all of the local shares? And what is to prevent a lot of people from gambling away their shares?

Or, someone starts up what we now call a “mutual fund” to pool money and invest it for the betterment of the group. And charges a management fee based on successful results.

Or someone builds a very fast car.

Or someone breeds very fast horses.