Wearing a clerical collar, ever inappropriate?

[Tis_Bearself]

I do have to note that Hispanic Catholics, while not as “dressy” as black churchgoers, are very neat, clean, and attractive in their dress at mass. I always enjoy going to Spanish Mass and seeing them dressed the way people are supposed to for Mass.

They are neat and clean, but in my area, many of them do not have money for clothing beyond the basics. I’m sure if they had more money they would dress up, but I have been to a few Masses at the Hispanic parish where some people were basically covered and that was it. Many migrant workers and recent immigrants go there.

The whole “black church culture” has, as one of its hallmarks, sharp, attractive dress for both men and women.

This is not just “church culture” but is culture in general, and it’s rooted in economics and the perception of what more dressy or more formal clothing means to one group or one socioeconomic strata as opposed to what it means to another. We’ve had many threads on it in the past and it’s kind of off topic here so I’ll leave it at that.

 

[CilladeRoma]

I agree.
There was a small group of seminarians in my diocese a few years back that wore their clerics everywhere. Even when they were home from seminary and not actively engaged in parish duties they would wear them. Most wore cassocks too. It was a little strange seeing this group five 20-somethings running around town dressed this way. The Bishop finally put an end to it and seminarians can only wear their clerics while in school or at official church functions amd never out in public, unless it is related to a school or church function.
In a somewhat interesting side note, none of those five actually ever made it to ordination.

 

[Usige]

I’ve always thought that was a bit of an overreach, since A) bishops can’t actually legislate on that since it’s above their pay grade, legally speaking; and B) deacons are clerics and should wear clerical attire.

While I tend to agree with both points, in practical terms permanent deacons aren’t in a position to argue with their bishop. It has always bothered me when deacons (as clerics) are forbidden to wear clerical attire, while we have 19 year old seminarians (who are almost a decade from the clerical state) that are expected to wear a clerical collar most of the time. I don’t begrudge the seminarians so much as treating clerical collars as unbecoming of some clerics.

In my diocese, our bishop allows permanent deacons to wear light grey clerical shirts (and cassock for a couple) as long as they are performing clerical duties. It is actual our director of deacons that strongly discourages deacons from wearing the collar. In his opinion, it puts a wall between the Deacon and the laity they are to minister to. He has never convincingly explained why he doesn’t see the collar as an issue for priests (who serve the same people). :man_shrugging:t3:

 

[ReaderT]

I know some who even, gasp , wear the cassock.

Good. In the Orthodox Church, Deacons wear them whenever they like. Priests are encouraged to wear them always, even running to WalMart.

Even the “minor clergy”, like Subdeacons and Readers, wear cassocks for Liturgy and other church functions. I have my cassock hanging on the closet door about 10 feet away as I type this, next to my prayer rope (hanging on the doorknob).

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

In the Diocese I am in, if a religious ( I cannot speak of clergy and deacons) wants to wear religious dress, male or female, outside of the groups that do by default, the Bishop calls for a period of discernment with him.

 

[nunsuch]

While this may be, I think it would be wrong to assume that priests who don’t always wear clerical garb are neither available nor proud of their vocations. Some of the most dedicated and effective priests I know will often wear informal clothing when they are not on duty. Whereas some who always wear a collar are cold and unsympathetic. What people wear is not necessarily a good indicator of who they are on the inside.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

I do have to note that Hispanic Catholics, while not as “dressy” as black churchgoers, are very neat, clean, and attractive in their dress at mass. I always enjoy going to Spanish Mass and seeing them dressed the way people are supposed to for Mass.

They are neat and clean, but in my area, many of them do not have money for clothing beyond the basics. I’m sure if they had more money they would dress up, but I have been to a few Masses at the Hispanic parish where some people were basically covered and that was it. Many migrant workers and recent immigrants go there.

I get the impression that they are wearing “the best they have”, and as you note as well, whatever they wear, is always neat and clean. This is very inspiring.

HomeschoolDad:

The whole “black church culture” has, as one of its hallmarks, sharp, attractive dress for both men and women.

This is not just “church culture” but is culture in general, and it’s rooted in economics and the perception of what more dressy or more formal clothing means to one group or one socioeconomic strata as opposed to what it means to another.

I live in a heavily African American part of the country, and I am well-acquainted with many aspects of their culture, not just dress preferences. African Americans have a high degree of respect for themselves, they place a premium on looking good (and they do!), and this is manifested in how they dress for church. I would have a very hard time explaining to them why many Catholics dress so casually for Mass. The same is true of “old-line”, “mainstream” Protestants, especially those who attend the “society” churches that are usually downtown and have “First” somewhere in their names. One short answer is that Catholics do not go to Mass to “see and be seen”, nor necessarily to socialize (though some do). We do not normally compliment the priest on his sermon, nor the choir for their music, because that’s not what we’re there for, whereas for Protestants, both are of the utmost importance.

We’ve had many threads on it in the past and it’s kind of off topic here so I’ll leave it at that.

I seem to have noticed a greater vigilance lately on CAF to keep discussions more “on-topic”. As anyone knows, if they know me, I will talk to absolutely anyone about absolutely anything — “shy” and “reticent” are two concepts I would have to have explained to me, if I didn’t already know about them — and I admire the Polish and Russian habit of engaging in wide-ranging conversations that go wherever they will, and seem to last endlessly. Is there a part of CAF, a separate forum, where ongoing discussions take place, without an expectation that nobody will go too far “off-topic”? It’d be refreshing.

 

[Episcopalian]

I seem to have noticed a greater vigilance lately on CAF to keep discussions more “on-topic”. As anyone knows, if they know me, I will talk to absolutely anyone about absolutely anything — “shy” and “reticent” are two concepts I would have to have explained to me, if I didn’t already know about them — and I admire the Polish and Russian habit of engaging in wide-ranging conversations that go wherever they will, and seem to last endlessly. Is there a part of CAF, a separate forum, where ongoing discussions take place, without an expectation that nobody will go too far “off-topic”? It’d be refreshing.

I’m not sure if there’s a CAF chatrooms but that’s better suited style for what you’re looking for. For me, the two issues with going off topic:

1. Moderators shut down threads that devolve from their original purpose.
2. It’s “extra noise” to scroll through, as the OP, or others who are specifically interested in hearing answers/anecdotes related to the original question.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

I’ve seen some deacons who wear Roman collars or the occasional cassock too. While it doesn’t particularly bother me, I find it important in the case of a permanent deacon, i.e. not a seminarian hopefully on the path to ordination, that I know somehow he’s a deacon and not a priest. Often deacons will make this clear in some way, for example by being popularly known around the parish as “Deacon Jim” or whatever, but I’ve known a couple who seemed to want to be more priestly than the priests, if you know what I mean, and it made me uncomfortable.

Just to “put it out there”, I wonder if there could be some kind of clerical dress, either drawn from a past tradition or newly created, that would clearly not be priestly clericals, but would denote a deacon and nothing else but a deacon. It is not at all evident whether a man wearing a Roman collar is a priest or a deacon. And I am not suggesting a change in this, but the typical layperson these days would not be able to tell you the difference between a priest’s chasuble and stole hanging freely, and a deacon’s dalmatic and stole across the chest. To the untrained observer, they all just look like priests.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Right. If someone wants to discuss some subject other than the one proposed by the OP, it’s easy enough to start a new thread.

 

[dochawk]

For byzantines, a deacon is generally “Father Deacon Whosamasudge”. (for that matter, priests and bishops are also typically first name. So a man named John Doe would typically be “Bishop Doe” in the west (though commemorated as “Joe, our Bishop” in liturgy), Phil he would be “Bishop John” in the East.

As far as collars, the general expectation for Byzantine deacons in the US is tower it for anything chriuch related, including KofC meetings and the like.

I’ve also known clergy to wear secular clothes where they think it may be more sensitive to the occasion,

RC rules here (Las Vegas) require secular clothing when even walking through a casino, even to a wedding reception. Our EC priests follow this as well.

and a few Eastern Catholic priests who wear grey cassocks.

An ***** tried to put my EC priest aside from the clergy at a KofC fourth degree , claiming his grey cassock meant that he was a deacon . . .

But aside from that, wearing anything distinctive would be seen as kind of “Romanist” or “Romish”.

The really funny part of that is the “typical” Protestant preacher robes . . . are 16th century Geneva academic attire, as would have even worn by Calvin!

Some of the most dedicated and effective priests I know will often wear informal clothing when they are not on duty.

One of my priest’s growing up wore secular clothes to golf.

He’d found people behaved differently there when he knew he was a priest . . .

I’ve had any number of black men comment that I was dressed sharply, but never a white guy. Typically, a good suit, good tie, French cuffs & suspenders, western hat and snake skin boots when dressed for court or work travel.

 

[Katie777]

My daughters last principal was a deacon and wore a grey shirt with collar during school hours

 

[CTBcin]

B) deacons are clerics and should wear clerical attire.

This has always been my view as well. In my diocese, deacons are not allowed to wear clerics, even when doing ministry. In my view, deacons are full clerics and should have the right to clerical attire. It seems that deacons are often viewed as “second-class clerics”, so to speak. Not allowing deacons to wear clerical attire perpetuates that misconception, imho.

 

[nunsuch]

I’m sorry if I misinterpreted what you meant when you said “such a positive statement that they are proud of their vocation and that they are there available if needed for their Priestly duties.” I simply meant that all clergy, regardless of garb, should be assumed to be grateful for vocation and available. On that point, I think we agree. Perhaps you also misinterpreted what I meant?

Peace.

 

[InThePew]

I wear a collar pretty much all the time when I’m “on duty”. I’m actually so used to wearing it that I forget I’m wearing it - until I find myself wondering “why is that person looking at me funny?” and then I remember! Sometimes, people have approached me in the supermarket and asked “are you a real priest?” While I’m tempted to say “no it’s Halloween” I say yes and see where it goes. The thing to remember about wearing a collar is that it doesn’t create and identity - it expresses one. Wearing it won’t make me a better priest but, at the same time, I also think I should look like what I am.