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FatherOfTwelve
Guest
Also, the same part of the Canon that was “Abrogated” also said that women should drees modestly in Church, with that logic, they can wear bikinis to Mass "Since it’s been “Abrogated”
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Walking_Home
Guest
Walking_Home:
Also, the same part of the Canon that was “Abrogated” also said that women should drees modestly in Church, with that logic, they can wear bikinis to Mass "Since it’s been “Abrogated”
Don’t try to muddy the waters – by bringing in what does not apply to this thread.
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FatherOfTwelve
Guest
Originally Posted by DebChris
The length of a person’s hair and/or whether or not a woman chooses to wear a head covering or not wear a head covering is not a prerequisite for salvation. Indeed, the requirements for salvation are not gender specific. Our salvation lies in our acceptance of the sacrifice of the Cross. Have we accepted Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior? Our salvation is not a matter of what we eat, drink, or wear. Are we willing to submit our will to God’s Will?
If God should speak through me (to prophesy), even though my head is unveiled, who am I to stand in His way, to stifle the Holy Spirit working through me? Likewise, if a man is to prophesy in God’s name while wearing his cultural garb, including headdress, who am I to refuse to listen?
Some of the saints, especially during the Middle Ages, pointed to the modest dress of Muslim women as an example for Christian women to also follow. A woman’s hajib encompasses modesty, inner pride, and a desire to please her Creator. Wearing something on my head, whether it be a nice hat or scarf, is a matter of discipline not “law.” Not having that head covering will not keep me from attending Mass, nor is it any reason for a woman to feel guilty.
God made known his will through the Scripture, the Tradtion and the Obedience of the Bishops concerning the veil. Some choose not to listen. Just like contracepting. MILLIONS of Catholic women contracept when the Bishops “Church” teach that it is a moral evil.
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Debora123
Guest
OH please.
Don’t compare going to church in a bikini to going to Church without a head covering. This is getting waayyy silly.
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FatherOfTwelve
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Then you need to look at the Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium to the understanding of the veil. NOT the Bible alone, ALL three witnesses!
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FatherOfTwelve
Guest
But that’s what Walking Home is saying, Because that section is no longer in Canon law, it NO LONGER applies (Veil), same goes for women to dress modestly. IT was in the SAME SECTION!OH please.
Don’t compare going to church in a bikini to going to Church without a head covering. This is getting waayyy silly.
BTW,
Hope your doing well. Long time since we were on the same post. Did your husband get into the Air Force?
Peace!!!
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Walking_Home
Guest
Walking_Home:
Then you need to look at the Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium to the understanding of the veil. NOT the Bible alone, ALL three witnesses!
As has been stated – The Church does not require women to veil. So again – quit imposing what the Church does not.
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Walking_Home
Guest
OH please.
Don’t compare going to church in a bikini to going to Church without a head covering. This is getting waayyy silly.
Yes – it is.
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FatherOfTwelve
Guest
Someone please tell me WHY the BISHOPS OBEY 1st Cor Chapter 11
They remove the head covering WHY…
They remove the head covering WHY…
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FatherOfTwelve
Guest
EXPLAIN WHY the Tradition, the Bishops Obeying it. COME ON, Man up! or Woman Up!
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Baelor
Guest
The Church does not teach that moral obligations exist outside of what it explicitly considers moral obligations. Thus, it is not possible that something neither a legal obligation nor an explicit moral one is in fact a moral obligation. The Church nowhere teaches that women need to veil, and therefore does not consider it an obligation.
It is not a matter of my opinion. Note that you still have not done what is necessary to support your point: Provide a currently standing Church document that establishes veiling as a moral obligation. You are, in fact, not able to, because such a statute does not exist, precisely because the Church does not consider veiling a moral obligation at all.
The Church explicitly teaches its moral obligations. It does not consider sinful things that are not labeled explicitly as such within Church teaching. I challenge you to find an example of this.
I ask that you provide the Church teaching establishing that custom as perpetually valid.
The Church does not teach that veiling is morally necessary. Therefore the Church does not “agree” that veiling is morally necessary.
Modesty is taught within the Catholic Church as a virtue, so it is still an obligation. Veiling is not taught thusly within the Catholic Church.
The Church explicitly condemns contraception as an evil. Does it similarly establish veiling among women as an imperative? Show us this explicit requirement.
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Debora123
Guest
It’s a matter of custom/tradition for bishops to wear what they wear… same as what priests wear, cardinals wear, popes wear…Someone please tell me WHY the BISHOPS OBEY 1st Cor Chapter 11
They remove the head covering WHY…
It is no longer a requirement for lay women to wear head coverings to mass.
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Walking_Home
Guest
Walking_Home:
EXPLAIN WHY the Tradition, the Bishops Obeying it. COME ON, Man up! or Woman Up!
You should “man up” and accept – that you are wrong – imposing on women – what the Church does not.
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jilly4ski
Guest
Lol, God Bless, and congrats on your daughter.And beside that, THAT"S the ONLY comment you have towards my most magificent post
God Bless!!!
But if her Mother superior order her no remove the veil, she would be obligated to do so, presumably because of her vow (I suppose she hasn’t taken final vows yet). of obedience. Think of Saint Padre Pio and his obedience to the bishop, though the bishop was “wrong.”
Indeed the Church relies on these three things to teach. But in the case the Church is not teaching, even though this is something that people have been insisting is a positive duty. If this was indeed a positive moral imperative, the Church, being infallible in faith and morals could not fail to teach it, it would be like leaving our obligation to go to Mass on Sundays out of the law.Ahh, he did “THE BIBLE”
Hate jumping in the middle, but here’s two cents.
The church (truth) stands on three witnesses.
And yes below is my daughter the Sister, they veil because the Bible tells them so
- Sacred Scripture - Like Prego, it’s in there. The HOLY SPIRIT speaking through St. Paul put the requirement in scripture. It will NEVER be “Abrogated” from the scripture.
- Sacred Tradition - Catholic women have been veiled at Mass for two thousand years. Nuns, Sisters and Lay. Think about that for a second. The Nuns/Sisters “Honor” their Head; they are married to Jesus Christ. The lay, they honor their husbands.
- Magisterium - Now here’s the tricky one. Can they teach by example? Yes they can, I guarantee every bishop on this planet removes his little red beanie at the prayer of consecration. WHY???
He is OBEYING 1st Cor chapter 11.
The Bishop/MAN removes his head covering because he is now truly in Persona Christi. He WILL NOT dishonor his head, the Father. The men attending Mass never wear head coverings because “7* For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God”
In Mass the woman is veiled because she is “; but woman is the glory of man.” Man’s “Glory” shall be covered.
The Magisterium Obey the Scripture/Tradition and sound doctrine, they just don’t have the :ballspin: to preach it. Same as contraception, abortion, purgatory, etc. etc.
Okay, I’ll stop the rant….
Veiling is rather like fasting and abstinence (from food during lent) The church teaches it now, and it is in the bible, it is a good and holy thing to do, and is a legal imperative. But the Church can remove the requirement (and has in the US for the abstinence on all Fridays). Thus fasting is not a moral imperative (except by virtue that it is required by the competent authority-obedience). So likewise veiling is not a moral imperative.
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jilly4ski
Guest
Because it is in the GRIM.Someone please tell me WHY the BISHOPS OBEY 1st Cor Chapter 11
They remove the head covering WHY…
(I would assume that is where it is, though I suppose it might be somewhere else). Thus a competent authority (Rome) has required it of the bishops/priests. It is not the actual act which makes it a moral issue, but the act of obedience of the bishop to their superior.
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FatherOfTwelve
Guest
Debora, you are correct it is a tradition, A Sacred Tradition. Here is how St. Paul starts,
1st Corinthians Chapter 11
1* Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. 2* I commend you because you remember me in everything and **maintain the traditions **even as I have delivered them to you.
You see, the tradition of a women being veiled at Mass and a man not being veiled, goes back to St. Paul commending the Corithians for OBEYING this tradtion.
This Tradition has been obeyed for two thousand years, by men and women. It wasn’t until the feminist movement in the 60’s that Catholic women started to refuse to obey this Tradition. It was somehow seen as demeaning. I honestly don’t know why it was removed from the Canon, maybe the Bishops felt that they could not force a women to honor her husband. I wasn’t there.
But I do know that the Bishops, even the most left leaning of them will TAKE OFF the Zucchetto (little red round cover) before the Prayer of Concecration. They WILL NOT dishonor their head. I said it earlier. A priest (Bishop) is acting in the Person of Christ. As the verse says, Jesus will not dishonor his head, God the Father. He will remove any head covering. Men as well because we are the “Head” of the Wife. The man is the Priest of the home. The verse also states that the Man is the Image and Glory of God, the Woman is the GLORY of man. That is actually quite beautiful, that my wife is MY GLORY, The BETTER HALF! So then, my Glory shall not be DISPLAYED in MASS. All Glory and Honor goes to God in Mass. Men Honor their Head - Jesus, women honor their husbands
This is truely a very deep subject. I am writing a small book on the matter.
What anyone can’t deny is the fact that all three legs of the stool “Church”, support the practice of men not being covered and women being covered. The Scripture supports it as universal because St. Paul refers back to Adam and Eve, they were not Jewish (cultural), it is the constant teaching of the Bishops by example, and a constant practice of pious Cathoilc men and women for 2,000 years. Yes, thousands maybe millions of Catholic women still " **maintain the traditions **even as I have delivered them to you."
Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium All three witnesses agree.
Please try to ignore my earlier brash posts. When a women veils, she is truely honoring God by honoring her husband.
God Bless!
Oh, I almost forgot, Guess what? If your husband ever gets into the Airforce, he will be COVERED! But, his HEAD, the Commander in Chief (President) is NOT covered
I wonder where that came from
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FatherOfTwelve
Guest
Again you quote “Documents” and Act of obedience to their superior. NO KIDDING!Because it is in the GRIM.
Their superior is JESUS CHRIST! When the celebrate Mass they remove the Zuccehto in obedience to the Scripture and constant Tradition. Thats why it’s in the GIRM!!!
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Baelor
Guest
The Church does not teach that we are required to follow this passage.
But what matters is that is was removed form the Canon, and it was obeyed while it was in the Canon because the Canon ought to be obeyed on a moral level.
We are bound by what the Church teaches. The Church does not teach that women are required to veil, and therefore women are not required to veil.
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Walking_Home
Guest
“FatherofTwelve” and “Portrait”-- accept that you are wrong – in imposing on women – what the Church does not.
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FatherOfTwelve
Guest
Ok, I think I get what your saying about the “Moral Imperative”. But, I would disagree with saying it is not Teaching, Some saint said, Preach the Gospel, use words when you have to. Likewise the Bishops, by obeying the Tradition, are Teaching by example. Just how we should live the Catholic faith. So they do teach it.
Last reply for the night. Later, God Bless!
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