Website about SSA - The 4TS and the Church

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I struggle with same sex attraction, anyway this website is pretty interesting, I wonder what you think about it. It’s by christians, and it moves on from acknowledging the morality of homosexual acts, to discussing the need for intimacy. its most controversial elements is discussing non sexual, nude situations among the same sex, which they see as a valuable experience for men as kind of a counter shame one may not have experienced. What do you guys think about this? Is this weird? is this wrong?, or are they on to somethin?. What do you think about it from a non homosexual point of view. I ask, because I am trying to figure out things myself, cause I need to work on finding healing and friendships myself, and I’m not sure how to do it chastely, and I wonder how other people see this.

Edit: Now I’ve taken a look at the material on this website as a whole and I think its pretty solid. They have a couple odd views here and there, on marriage and some confusion over what the definition of celibacy means, but overall I like there perspective. I have less questions, but feel free to discuss.
 
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@Prodigal_Son @Joe1 @NuclearReceptor @Duckling @deprofundis89

This may be relevant for you.
 
ooh! I’ve heard their podcasts before!! They are pretty good!
 
I haven’t seen anything decidedly against catholic teaching as of yet. this is among the most questionable content I’ve seen: They seem to think there is a difference between celibacy and single, but its terminology really, I think they think celibacy is living along without affection. And they also talk about marriage being overated, ad people should be family to people outside of just marriage. perhaps they don’t have an understanding of it as a sacrament, and one person has the position that they are against homosexual marriage theologically, but they are fine with it being legalized, because they want the church to focus on the other topics then simply stating “gay marriage is wrong”.

The problem is I don’t know if there is any catholic teaching on this stuff. There are a lot of questions that are hard to understand and answer. I am always wondering myself, Is this a homosexual attraction, or is it a human need I ought to pursue. Is it wrong to want to hang out with someone (of the same sex) alot, and to pursue affection, do straight people do that? Is that a spiritually dangerous path? Is the natural end of pursuing a desire for affection sex?It’s confusing. I do know that this stuff has been somewhat healing for some people though, and they can shift from wanting to sexualize someone they find attractive to knowing them more as a brother and an equal, which reduces the (sexual)attraction to them. It be easier to figure out what is right and wrong if we knew the “Why”, of what makes homosexual actions wrong. Homosexual actions are definately officialy wrong, but Natural law isn’t an official catholic teaching but a theory, right? someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but I find it confusing. Friendship is confusing to me at the moment.

Then there’s that video by Jason Evert:
It seems like his view have similarities to those of this website. notable quote "You’re supposed to be attracted to the same sex!" see the the video at 5:33

Probably my isolation is the cause of some of this, If I actually talked to some people, I might be able to better understand this stuff.
 
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I guess I’m different from some other people in that I’m generally introverted and prefer spending most of my time alone — generally not a good thing, but the silver lining is it decreases feelings of loneliness and desire for “life partnership”.

In regards to non-sexual nude situations…I’d rather just avoid that situation…

(Disclaimer: I’m generally scrupulous and probably have some sort of anxiety disorder or mental dysfunction, avoidance behavior being one of them.)
 
The non sexual nude situations, I think just depends on where you are and the context. There is certainly a dangerous direction to go in it, which is seeking out nude images, it can turn into pornography, The point is overcoming that embarassment with the body and self, so its really about the equality and mutuality. It’s definately crossed a line if you are seeing someone naked without them realizing it(via internet). but in a real enviroment, there’s trust there. It could be healing, because the temptation to sexualize someone elses male body can come from a place a feeling of insecurity and inadequacy, or fear. The real vulnerability of the situation, with a safe and respectful outcome, can heal those desperate feelings that fuel homosexual fantasy. But there’s no reason to rush into such a situation, especially when you are getting started on the basics of friendship. And it’s scary too, I’ve avoided nudity pretty much my whole life. I honestly don’t know how I’d react.
 
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Joe_73 said:
I’ve avoided nudity pretty much my whole life. I honestly don’t know how I’d react.
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I’d probably look away from a nude guy, it would be awkward and it would give birth to temptation to sin
 
Joe_73 said:
its most controversial elements is discussing non sexual, nude situations among the same sex, which they see as a valuable experience for men as kind of a counter shame one may not have experienced… Is this weird?
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Sounds weird.
 
Nudity ≠ Sex
for people of the same gender I think it can be an experience of bonding(and securing a more firm identity in ones own gender and equality). Sexual fantasies are often fueled by shame and fear of real life situations. It can be helpful to see nudity, and not have it lead to sex, as a counter image to previous sexual fantasies and pornography one has been exposed to. I need to desexualize nudity. Having sexual nudity with the same sex is definately a bad idea, because I don’t want to cement sexual immorality in my mind with men, which I have done before. non sexual nudity isn’t really a good situation to get started with, because emotional vulnerability is probably going to be more important, and the lack of emotional vulnerability could drive fantasy. but it’s not something you should flee from.

In this talk by Andrew Comiskey:
He talks about how he was in a situation where he found someone sexually attractive, he realized he shouldn’t flee the situation, but he had to work through it and not resort to sexual fantasy. It paid off, and he was able to become good friends with him, and it worked out fine. He has no problem with sexualixing him anymore. Which I assume means the temptation dramatically decreased. He’s not talking about nudity, but its a similar thing.

I’m not sure how(that is, because I have not been doing anything in real life in regards to this) but my obsession with male sexual anatomy has decreased significantly. It’s occasionally a problem, but as I’ve come to terms with my own body, and felt less embarassed about it, had no shame in curiosity about it, decreased my unrealistic expectations of body image by not watching porn, it’s less of an object of sexual desire. Granted, There are still other masculine features that can be a temptation to fantasy, and its still a homo-sexual temptation, it’s not focused on the genitals so much as getting pleasure in order to feel like , I’m getting something I feel I lack.

Working through and facing alot of these things that drive temptation is a good idea.
 
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Rau said:
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Joe_73:
its most controversial elements is discussing non sexual, nude situations among the same sex, which they see as a valuable experience for men as kind of a counter shame one may not have experienced… Is this weird?
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Sounds weird.
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Would you think it wierd if we had the opposite situation, were same sex nudity was taboo, and locker room nudity wasn’t a thing?
 
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I don’t follow. Are the qualifications of those behind the website revealed? Psychologists ?
 
They are largely associated with Biola University. there is one Professor Thoennes of Biola University. Then theres 3 straight(one a little iffy) men, and one homosexual man.
 
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Maybe bonding isn’t the right word. Many SSA have an overwhelming need for affirmation/approval. They need to be affirmed or “seen”, as a “man among men”. that unmet need fuels right into homosexual desire during puberty, at least in my case, because I felt isolated, not initially knowing what was going on, and so I wanted to feel accepted(or affirmed, or loved) in my current situation, instead of being ashamed about it. My body was embarassing, I needed to know that I was normal and acceptable and adequete, my bodily arousal, explored through masturbation, was embarasing and shameful, and I wanted to be free of that shame and know that I(and that) was normal and acceptable and adequate as a male, which I was incredibly insecure about. This naturally lead my fantasies to create that in my imagination, other males got pleasure out of me doing what I was ashamed about, in order to escape that shame, and feel adequete as a male. Does that make sense?
This is why I think nudity can be healing in a way.
 
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Joe_73 said:
Working through and facing alot of these things that drive temptation is a good idea.
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Is it…? We are told to resist temptation, flee from satan, not actively engage or face it.

All I know is personally speaking, I can predict with reasonable certainty that placing myself in such environment will only enable further…imaginations…and turn curiosity into morbid curiosity.

A straight man looking through the Victoria’s Secret catalog is not going to reduce inclination to lust, whereas for me, flipping through that thing would be akin to going through the yellow pages.

It just seems like playing with matches around flammable objects…
 
The point is to work through the emotional issues, instead of letting them drive you into desperation, making sex all the more tempting.
 
WOw. WHere did everyone get the LIME green avatars??? Bizarre.
 
I’ve been reading through that website for the past hour or so. I can’t find anything problematic. In fact, it seems quite helpful. The thing we have to understand is that our perception and existence in this world is purely individualistic. Our minds are confined to the brain, imprisoned to our skulls and unfortunately we cannot connect some wire to ‘walk in the shoes of our brother’. Because our existence is as such, and because our souls are crafted by God in the likeness of His image, He alone, and whomever else He imparts this knowledge to in Heaven, perhaps Our Blessed Mother or a particular saint, our Guardian Angel, etc, knows and understands how our minds work or how they fail to work.

And so each of us has a cross to bear, because our God suffered for us - it is a grace to suffer as well, for the salvation of our souls and of the others. Men who suffer more than the rest are known as victim souls, people chosen to suffer perhaps a bit more in various ways. Some must live their lives through the most detailed of labyrinths or mazes. No where in the Gospels, nor in the writings of the Fathers and Mothers of the Church does it say we won’t be tested someway or another. It is our ability to cooperate with God’s grace which gives our lives meaning and sets us upon the right path. Deep friendships are a great blessing, because though we are individuals, when dealing with same-sex attraction, only yourself can understand your attraction. Only the individual and God knows the heart and mind. A loving friendship is what one would need. Hugging, touching, talking, sharing with each other the struggles in life would be evidence of God’s love and tender care for His children.

“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will in no wise cast out.” St John 6:37

It might be a good maxim to include the following in your prayers: “My loving Mother, I do not know what to do nor where to go. Indeed, I do not know what I am doing, nor where I am henceforth going. Take my hand, and give me to Your dear Son, who is my Saviour, so that He might guide me. Drape over me Your mantle, so that You may guard me. For I can do nothing. Grant that, through Your prayers and by Your Son’s loving kindness and great mercy, He will supply me with someone to love and be truthful with, that we might guide each other along the right path: to Heaven, and no where else.”
 
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Some places have bathing or such among those of the same sex without it being sexual or anything.

It can be weird in American culture though.
 
Sure stands out, but Rau’s was never that color before, that’s why I asked. Welcome to the fora.
 
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