Wed Mass readings (Human sacrifice to God? / Hell? Purgatory?)

[distracted]

August 20, 2009

**Reading 1
Jgs 11:29-39a **

The Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah.
He passed through Gilead and Manasseh,
and through Mizpah-Gilead as well,
and from there he went on to the Ammonites.
Jephthah made a vow to the LORD.
***“If you deliver the Ammonites into my power,” he said,
“whoever comes out of the doors of my house
to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites
shall belong to the LORD.
I shall offer him up as a burnt offering.” ***

Jephthah then went on to the Ammonites to fight against them,
and the LORD delivered them into his power,
so that he inflicted a severe defeat on them,
from Aroer to the approach of Minnith (twenty cities in all)
and as far as Abel-keramim.
Thus were the Ammonites brought into subjection
by the children of Israel.
When Jephthah returned to his house in Mizpah,
it was his daughter who came forth,
playing the tambourines and dancing.
She was an only child: he had neither son nor daughter besides her.
When he saw her, he rent his garments and said,
“Alas, daughter, you have struck me down
and brought calamity upon me.
For I have made a vow to the LORD and I cannot retract.”
She replied, “Father, you have made a vow to the LORD.
Do with me as you have vowed,
because the LORD has wrought vengeance for you
on your enemies the Ammonites.”
Then she said to her father, “Let me have this favor.
Spare me for two months, that I may go off down the mountains
to mourn my virginity with my companions.”
“Go,” he replied, and sent her away for two months.
So she departed with her companions
and mourned her virginity on the mountains.
At the end of the two months she returned to her father,
who did to her as he had vowed.

Responsorial Psalm
Ps 40:5, 7-8a, 8b-9, 10

R. (8a and 9a) Here I am, Lord; I come to do your will.
Blessed the man who makes the LORD his trust;
who turns not to idolatry
or to those who stray after falsehood.
R. Here I am, Lord; I come to do your will.
Sacrifice or oblation you wished not,
but ears open to obedience you gave me.
Burnt offerings or sin-offerings you sought not;
then said I, “Behold I come.”
R. Here I am, Lord; I come to do your will.
“In the written scroll it is prescribed for me.
To do your will, O my God, is my delight,
and your law is within my heart!”
R. Here I am, Lord; I come to do your will.
I announced your justice in the vast assembly;
I did not restrain my lips, as you, O LORD, know.
R. Here I am, Lord; I come to do your will.

Gospel
Mt 22:1-14

***Jesus again in reply spoke to the chief priests and the elders of the people in parables
saying, “The Kingdom of Heaven may be likened to a king
who gave a wedding feast for his son.***He dispatched his servants to summon the invited guests to the feast,
but they refused to come.
A second time he sent other servants, saying,
‘Tell those invited: “Behold, I have prepared my banquet,
my calves and fattened cattle are killed,
and everything is ready; come to the feast.”’
Some ignored the invitation and went away,
one to his farm, another to his business.
The rest laid hold of his servants,
mistreated them, and killed them.
The king was enraged and sent his troops,
destroyed those murderers, and burned their city.

Then the king said to his servants, ‘The feast is ready,
but those who were invited were not worthy to come.
Go out, therefore, into the main roads
and invite to the feast whomever you find.’
The servants went out into the streets
and gathered all they found, bad and good alike,
and the hall was filled with guests.
But when the king came in to meet the guests
he saw a man there not dressed in a wedding garment.
He said to him, ‘My friend, how is it
that you came in here without a wedding garment?’
But he was reduced to silence.
Then the king said to his attendants, ‘Bind his hands and feet,
and cast him into the darkness outside,
where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.’
Many are invited, but few are chosen.”

Moral of the story: We should not make vows to God that may involve something we “can’t” / shouldn’t / totally don’t want to do. It seems to me that God would have understood if the man didn’t kill his own daughter. On the other hand, why would this man make such a terrible offer in the first place - an offer of a HUMAN being as a sacrifice!!!

He undoubtedly thought he would be putting some unknown person to death, maybe some servant or someone like that?? In making this oath, he took the life of someone else, someone else’s loved one, casually - or more casually than he took the life of his daughter… (although he must have known his daughter might be the first one to meet him??? Crazy… :hypno

This shows a very pro-life message, it seems: Respect all human life. The life you save may be your own…

People act like abortion is not that big a deal. Even pro-lifers do sometimes… yet some day it will be THEY - the elderly - who are put to death. Its already happening in Oregon and the Netherlands… I read this one story about a woman in OR whose mother was 80 and she wanted to euthanize her!! probably for the $$ in the will (??). One pysch dr said no. The woman got angry :hypno: and found another dr. who said OK. The woman had mild dimentia but no other health problems. She didn’t want to die… but because her daughter wanted her to die… she went along with the program…

this is the legacy of legalized abortion…

Gospel:

What is the wedding garment? I think the wedding garment is obedience to Christ … i wonder if the wailing & gnashing of teeth may be Purgatory?? since the king called him, “my friend” before he punished him… just wondering…

 

[AmbroseSJ]

My Challoner Bible says that the sacrifice or the holocaust was the consecration of his daughter’s virginity, which as you know, in those times, was tantamount to a death sentence. That is why there is so much talk of her virginity in those verses. Some will argue the point (including some ECF’s) but I do not think it was a human sacrifice.

 

[distracted]

My Challoner Bible says that the sacrifice or the holocaust was the consecration of his daughter’s virginity, which as you know, in those times, was tantamount to a death sentence. That is why there is so much talk of her virginity in those verses. Some will argue the point (including some ECF’s) but I do not think it was a human sacrifice.

I’m not sure i u/stand.
are you saying that the man didn’t really kill his daughter??

 

[Robbinson]

My Challoner Bible says that the sacrifice or the holocaust was the consecration of his daughter’s virginity, which as you know, in those times, was tantamount to a death sentence. That is why there is so much talk of her virginity in those verses. Some will argue the point (including some ECF’s) but I do not think it was a human sacrifice.

Yes - this is how I undersand these verses as well. He did not kill his daughter, but consecrated her to the Lord as an offering. She would remain a virgin dedicated to the Lord.

The concept of human sacrifice is completely oppossed to everything in the Hebrew scriptures.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[cheeto1]

I would like to believe you guys but:
"I shall offer him up as a burnt offering"
Sorry, but it clearly says burnt. You are saying her virginity was burnt?

Jephthah did as he vowed, but was God happy?
I guess not, since in the following psalm it says:
“Sacrifice or oblation you wished not” and
“Burnt offerings or sin-offerings you sought not”

Matthew 5:33-37. Do not make promises.

Something struck me about the gospel. How many stories does Jesus tell about
the ones who don’t make it to heaven? He so often says there will be wailing and
grinding of teeth. There is the narrow road, and few find it. Then there are the 10
foolish and wise virgins, where half make it. But here at this wedding, only ONE is
thrown out into the wailing and grinding of teeth. All the rest made it.
Did they all really have wedding garments? It sounded like they were all rouded
up and brought immediately. Yet they all had time to change into wedding
garments? I guess they didn’t invite the poor. Does anyone ever get from this
that we should dress nicely for mass? It seems to mean something other than
clothes, but what?

Today is the day of St. Bernard. What if the St. Bernard dog was named for him?

 

[AmbroseSJ]

cheeto1:

I would like to believe you guys but:
“I shall offer him up as a burnt offering”
Sorry, but it clearly says burnt. You are saying her virginity was burnt?

You can offer yourself up as a burnt offering if you consecrate your virginity to God. Do you see what that implies? That doesn’t mean you have to douse yourself with gasoline. You don’t have to take everything so literally. However, there are some ECFs that would agree with you.

 

[cheeto1]

You can offer yourself up as a burnt offering if you consecrate your virginity to God. Do you see what that implies? That doesn’t mean you have to douse yourself with gasoline. You don’t have to take everything so literally. However, there are some ECFs that would agree with you.

But the Nazarites were never burnt offerings. Where did the idea that consecrating
your virginity means a burnt offering come from? How I wish I could believe that the
daughter of Jephthah was alive and well, devoting herself to holiness…

 

[AmbroseSJ]

But the Nazarites were never burnt offerings. Where did the idea that consecrating
your virginity means a burnt offering come from? How I wish I could believe that the
daughter of Jephthah was alive and well, devoting herself to holiness…

Your confusing some issues. Samson was a Nazarite, which meant he was not to partake of any strong drink, nor cut his hair, but be wholly dedicated to God. I don’t believe women were usually Nazarites. In any event, there was no vow of virginity associated with being a Nazarite, at least not in the day of the Judges. It is possible that Jephthah dedicated his daughter to become a Nazarite with the additional sacrifice required by virginity. Furthermore, as it was a holocaust, it was meant to be perpetual, or forever, meaning till death. Usually Nazarite vows lasted some finite amount of time, after which the hair was cut and offered up as a holocaust. So you see, there is no reason why this reading can not be taken in that sense.

In verse 29 we read that “the spirit of the Lord came upon Jephthah.” We can therefore be sure that he did not make an impious vow, or a sinful one. Furthermore, in verse 39 we read “…he did to her as he had vowed, and she knew no man.”

Furthermore we know that she was his only child. Whom did he expect to come out of his house when he returned home? Yet he was shocked that it was his only daughter that came out to meet him. Are we not seeing things in the proper light? Did animals come and go in the house? It’s not unreasonable to think so. Lastly, being that she was his only daughter, and only child, the vow of virginity would prevent his ever having grandchildren or progeny. This would strike him as deeply as it would her. There is no reason this could not be interpreted as a holocaust.

 

[diggerdomer]

On the other hand, why would this man make such a terrible offer in the first place - an offer of a HUMAN being as a sacrifice!!!

He undoubtedly thought he would be putting some unknown person to death, maybe some servant or someone like that?? In making this oath, he took the life of someone else, someone else’s loved one, casually - or more casually than he took the life of his daughter… (although he must have known his daughter might be the first one to meet him??? Crazy… :hypno

Both interpretations are acceptable, i.e. either it means he killed his daughter or it’s a metaphor for something else. At least, the Catholic Church doesn’t require/deny either interpretation.

 

[cheeto1]

"Spare me for two months, that I may go off down the mountains
to mourn my virginity with my companions.” "

---

If it was only her virginity that was sacrificed, then she had the rest of her
life to mourn it. What then was she spared from for 2 months, if she came
back and everything just stayed the same? Also, history has shown that just
because the Spirit of the Lord comes on a person, that doesn’t keep them
from any wrong-doing forever…

I find it hard to believe that he meant the person who comes out of the door’s
virginity when he vowed a burnt offering. When have the words “burnt offering”
ever been used to refer to virginity before this?

Thank you for pointing out that virginity was not part of being a Nazarite, I thought
it was.

Someone said both ways of thinking of this are acceptable, but I wish I believed
your way…

 

[AmbroseSJ]

cheeto1:

Also, history has shown that just
because the Spirit of the Lord comes on a person, that doesn’t keep them
from any wrong-doing forever…

I find it hard to believe that he meant the person who comes out of the door’s
virginity when he vowed a burnt offering. When have the words “burnt offering”
ever been used to refer to virginity before this?

In this situation, the Spirit of the Lord comes upon Jephthah right before he makes the vow, so we can be sure that Jephthah did nothing evil or sinful in making the vow. Indeed, that much at least we should believe. Furthermore, the nature of the vow may have implied that the holocaust would be accommodated to the situation, since Jephthah had no way of knowing how the vow ultimately would be fulfilled. Further, if we look upon the story of Isaac and Abraham, we see that the Lord may require something as a holocaust, but it does not mean that it actually plays out as human sacrifice. So in sum, there are quite a few good reasons to believe that the holocaust was NOT a human sacrifice, both taken in the literal meaning, and at the theological level.

If I felt like you (and I do,) I would have no rational reason to believe that a holocaust (human sacrifice) was absolutely meant. However, if you do believe that the holocaust was a human sacrifice, then you would also have to believe that this was God’s Holy will, because of the context of this story in Scripture. It can not be understood as though Jephthah committed a sin by fulfilling this vow. That would do violence to the Scripture’s intended message.

 

[cheeto1]

In this situation, the Spirit of the Lord comes upon Jephthah right before he makes the vow, so we can be sure that Jephthah did nothing evil or sinful in making the vow… It can not be understood as though Jephthah committed a sin by fulfilling this vow. That would do violence to the Scripture’s intended message.

You have a lot of patience, thank you…
Remember when the Spirit of the Lord came on Peter, and he said, “You are the
Messiah, the Son of God!” It was just a minute later that he was told, “Get behind
me satan!” for not wanting Jesus to die.

I think Jephthah made a vow to do something against God’s will. The Spirit of God
was with him to win the war. Then he said this thing, it was against God’s will. Yet
God didn’t want to make him lose the war, it was very important to God that he win
it. So this is what happened to him instead. And his poor daughter was innocent!
He probably thought a servant would meet him. And she went along with him, as
Isaac went along with Abraham, but God didn’t save her at the last moment. The
whole vow was not His will. And so now Jephthah was wrong no matter which way
he chose, fulfilling it, or not.

How can we even make a promise? Are we God? Do we control all circumstances
that could make a promise come true?