D
dixieagle
Guest
I think that Fr. David has covered all of this so eloquently that my two cents is unnecessary.
- Status
F
FrDavid96
Guest
Br. Rich,
I’m not sure what source you’re using. I did a search for Fr. McMamara, and I found his comments on an EWTN website. ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur242.htm Perhaps this is what you mean???
Here’s an excerpt from Fr. McNamara’s comments:
This canon also states that Catholics may fulfill their Sunday and holy-day obligations by assisting at any Catholic Mass after this time. Therefore, if a Catholic were to attend a wedding at this time, even if the ceremony lacked the elements proper to a Sunday Mass, he or she would be fulfilling the Sunday precept.
(the bold is my editing, of course)
And in another place:
A 4 p.m. wedding, however, is probably sufficiently on the borderline as to be celebrated as a Sunday Mass.
The only time he says that the Mass would not fulfill the obligation is here:
If there is real danger of anyone mistaking an earlier Mass as valid for Sunday, then care should be taken so that guests know in advance that the Mass will not cover their Sunday obligation.
But it’s important to note that he is not speaking of missing the obligation on account of the readings. Instead, he is saying that the obligation would be missed on account of the time since it would not be late enough on Saturday to be considered liturgical-Sunday.
In fact, since he makes a point of saying “mistaking an earlier Mass” that makes it even more clear that he’s speaking of time, since if he meant late Saturday evening (or even Sunday itself) he would not have qualified his statment by saying “earlier.”
Fr. M. makes a good point that pastorally speaking, it is the better option not to schedule wedding Masses during the hours in which the Sunday obligation would be fulfilled–and here I agree wholeheartedly.
But as I read his comments, he is not saying that a Sunday wedding Mass does not fulfill the obligation, instead, he seems to be saying quite the opposite in the text that I’ve quoted above.
Another selection from his web post:
Therefore, except in those cases when the majority of guests are well-formed and committed Catholics, it is better to assure as far as possible that they attend a celebration valid for Sunday, even though this can mean that on some occasions certain aspects of the regular nuptial Mass may not be celebrated.
If we read that very carefully, he is not saying that a Catholic who attends the wedding Mass must attend a second Mass. What he says is that it is “better to assure…that they attend a celebration valid for Sunday”
Here’s what that means to me (if I may):
The better option is to somehow ensure that Catholics attend a Sunday Mass where the Sunday readings are proclaimed, either by scheduling the wedding early on Saturday, or by using the Sunday readings at the wedding Mass.
While that’s the better pastoral option, he still is not saying that the wedding Mass would not fulfill the Sunday obligation.
Unless I’m either misreading the webpage, or there is some other source for Fr McNamara’s comments, I cannot see anywhere that he directly says that a Catholic who attends a wedding Mass on Sunday would be obligated to attend a second Mass that same day. In fact, I read his comments to say exactly the opposite, that the obligation would be fulfilled–he says as much in the first selection of his text that I quoted.
C
cameron_lansing
Guest
More importantly, he has answered correctly. Most canonists would give a similar reply.
L
LindaSK
Guest
My priests are not alone in their thinking…
*Dear Padre,
Do all Saturday Masses “count” as Sunday Masses? Does attending a wedding Mass that takes place after 4:00 PM on Saturday fulfill the obligation to attend Sunday Mass? The readings for a wedding Mass aren’t the same as for Sunday Mass. Does that matter? ~ Ellen
Dear Ellen,
Liturgical time for Sundays and holy days begins the evening of the prior day (Code of Canon Law, 202 and 1248), the time of which varies by diocese.
Masses celebrated the evening before Sunday or other holy days are called anticipatory Masses if they contain the readings for those days, and therefore they fulfill the holy day obligation. An evening wedding Mass that contains the holy day readings instead of the wedding readings fulfills your holy day obligation. A Mass with wedding readings does not.
But the issue at the heart of this question isn’t when evening begins or what the readings are. The real issue is that the habit of multitasking has become so ingrained in us that, perhaps without even realizing it, we’ve begun to apply that mentality to everything we do, in this case trying to fulfill two obligations with one Mass. But Mass is much more than just another week-end chore to cross off our to-do list. If we have the opportunity to go to Mass twice in one weekend, we shouldn’t view it as an extra demand on our time. Instead, we should welcome it as extra time for us, time to step back from the frenzied pace of everyday life, feed our soul, refresh our spirit and, most important, spend quality time with our Lord.
John Schmidt, C.Ss.R.aquietmoment.wordpress.com/2008/06/20/do-all-saturday-masses-%E2%80%9Ccount%E2%80%9D-as-sunday-masses/
*
I can look around and find a number of dioceses that adhere to this understanding. Baton Rouge certainly seems to. Thank you, Br. Rich.for your insight.
It would seem to be up to the local bishop, which may explain some of the confusion;
*At a recent wedding Mass celebrated at 7:00 p.m., the priest told the people that the Mass did not count for Sunday, because the wedding Mass did not count for Sunday, because the wedding Mass did not include the Gloria, the Sunday readings, and the Creed. I was under the impression that any Mass after 4:00 p.m. on Saturday counted for Sunday. Who is right here?
You did not say if this happened in the Diocese of Lincoln or elsewhere. Bishops have the option of permitting Saturday evening Masses to fulfill the Sunday obligations of the faithful and so it is in this diocese. However, it could be different in another place. If the local bishop permits wedding Masses at the time indicated and also permits anticipated Sunday Masses on Saturday evening, it is difficult for me to see how the priest could declare which of the Saturday evening Masses “count for Sunday” and which do not. Of course, perhaps not legally but liturgically speaking, the priest is correct and, I would imagine, a sincere Catholic would not want his Sunday Mass to be merely be fulfilling a legal obligation, but also to be a genuine liturgical encounter with the Risen Lord.*dioceseoflincoln.org/purple/mass/mass8.htm
Fr. David, this would certainly explain why an Ordination or Confirmation Mass on a Sunday would fulfill the ‘obligation’ to attend Mass on Sunday. The main celebrant is the Bishop. There will be a Gloria and the Creed. All are welcome to attend, not just an invited group as is the case with a wedding. In October, we will have Confirmation in the afternoon at a neighboring church where I know some of the confirmands. I will go to Mass at my church in the morning, then go to Confirmation. I understand that that is my choice. I do not perceive it as a burden!! No one should perceive Sunday Mass a burden because they attended a wedding the day before. Yes, they are attempting to use it as an excuse not to get up Sunday morning. It is a question of priorities, not of obligation.
*Dear Padre,
Do all Saturday Masses “count” as Sunday Masses? Does attending a wedding Mass that takes place after 4:00 PM on Saturday fulfill the obligation to attend Sunday Mass? The readings for a wedding Mass aren’t the same as for Sunday Mass. Does that matter? ~ Ellen
Dear Ellen,
Liturgical time for Sundays and holy days begins the evening of the prior day (Code of Canon Law, 202 and 1248), the time of which varies by diocese.
Masses celebrated the evening before Sunday or other holy days are called anticipatory Masses if they contain the readings for those days, and therefore they fulfill the holy day obligation. An evening wedding Mass that contains the holy day readings instead of the wedding readings fulfills your holy day obligation. A Mass with wedding readings does not.
But the issue at the heart of this question isn’t when evening begins or what the readings are. The real issue is that the habit of multitasking has become so ingrained in us that, perhaps without even realizing it, we’ve begun to apply that mentality to everything we do, in this case trying to fulfill two obligations with one Mass. But Mass is much more than just another week-end chore to cross off our to-do list. If we have the opportunity to go to Mass twice in one weekend, we shouldn’t view it as an extra demand on our time. Instead, we should welcome it as extra time for us, time to step back from the frenzied pace of everyday life, feed our soul, refresh our spirit and, most important, spend quality time with our Lord.
John Schmidt, C.Ss.R.aquietmoment.wordpress.com/2008/06/20/do-all-saturday-masses-%E2%80%9Ccount%E2%80%9D-as-sunday-masses/
*
I can look around and find a number of dioceses that adhere to this understanding. Baton Rouge certainly seems to. Thank you, Br. Rich.for your insight.
It would seem to be up to the local bishop, which may explain some of the confusion;
*At a recent wedding Mass celebrated at 7:00 p.m., the priest told the people that the Mass did not count for Sunday, because the wedding Mass did not count for Sunday, because the wedding Mass did not include the Gloria, the Sunday readings, and the Creed. I was under the impression that any Mass after 4:00 p.m. on Saturday counted for Sunday. Who is right here?
You did not say if this happened in the Diocese of Lincoln or elsewhere. Bishops have the option of permitting Saturday evening Masses to fulfill the Sunday obligations of the faithful and so it is in this diocese. However, it could be different in another place. If the local bishop permits wedding Masses at the time indicated and also permits anticipated Sunday Masses on Saturday evening, it is difficult for me to see how the priest could declare which of the Saturday evening Masses “count for Sunday” and which do not. Of course, perhaps not legally but liturgically speaking, the priest is correct and, I would imagine, a sincere Catholic would not want his Sunday Mass to be merely be fulfilling a legal obligation, but also to be a genuine liturgical encounter with the Risen Lord.*dioceseoflincoln.org/purple/mass/mass8.htm
Fr. David, this would certainly explain why an Ordination or Confirmation Mass on a Sunday would fulfill the ‘obligation’ to attend Mass on Sunday. The main celebrant is the Bishop. There will be a Gloria and the Creed. All are welcome to attend, not just an invited group as is the case with a wedding. In October, we will have Confirmation in the afternoon at a neighboring church where I know some of the confirmands. I will go to Mass at my church in the morning, then go to Confirmation. I understand that that is my choice. I do not perceive it as a burden!! No one should perceive Sunday Mass a burden because they attended a wedding the day before. Yes, they are attempting to use it as an excuse not to get up Sunday morning. It is a question of priorities, not of obligation.
F
FrDavid96
Guest
LindaSK,
In the text that you’ve quoted, the Padre says that is the readings are not the Sunday readings, it doesn’t count for Sunday. The problem here is that the Church does not say this.
This is an example of a priest adding an additional requirement over-and-above what the canon says. Priests simply cannot do this.
In the text from the diocese of Lincoln, there’s a key phrase:
“Of course, perhaps not legally but liturgically speaking, the priest is correct …”
That’s an important point. The priest is not “legally correct” in saying that the Saturday evening wedding Mass doesn’t count. That’s the point I keep making about canon law. A priest cannot add a burden to the law which the law itself does not place. If a person fulfills the obligation to attend Mass according to canon law, then the obligation has been fulfilled.
If a priest can add the obligation “it only counts for Sunday if the readings are for Sunday” then what is to stop another priest from saying “it only counts if you put $XX in the collection basket”? One can also make the argument that since Catholics have an obligation to support the temporal needs of the parish, although it’s not legally required, it’s morally required. Of course, we all know that a priest cannot add that requirement to the Sunday obligation, and neither can he add any other requirements which the Church does not place there.
The Sunday obligation is defined in canon law. We can’t add requirements to the canons just because we feel that we have a good reason for telling people that their attendance should not count for Sunday–even if we do in-fact have a very good reason for telling them so. It’s one thing to tell people that if they attend a wedding on Saturday evening, they should still attend a Sunday Mass, but when we cross the line and tell people that they have not fulfilled their Sunday obligation, that’s a different matter altogether.
In the text that you’ve quoted, the Padre says that is the readings are not the Sunday readings, it doesn’t count for Sunday. The problem here is that the Church does not say this.
This is an example of a priest adding an additional requirement over-and-above what the canon says. Priests simply cannot do this.
In the text from the diocese of Lincoln, there’s a key phrase:
“Of course, perhaps not legally but liturgically speaking, the priest is correct …”
That’s an important point. The priest is not “legally correct” in saying that the Saturday evening wedding Mass doesn’t count. That’s the point I keep making about canon law. A priest cannot add a burden to the law which the law itself does not place. If a person fulfills the obligation to attend Mass according to canon law, then the obligation has been fulfilled.
If a priest can add the obligation “it only counts for Sunday if the readings are for Sunday” then what is to stop another priest from saying “it only counts if you put $XX in the collection basket”? One can also make the argument that since Catholics have an obligation to support the temporal needs of the parish, although it’s not legally required, it’s morally required. Of course, we all know that a priest cannot add that requirement to the Sunday obligation, and neither can he add any other requirements which the Church does not place there.
The Sunday obligation is defined in canon law. We can’t add requirements to the canons just because we feel that we have a good reason for telling people that their attendance should not count for Sunday–even if we do in-fact have a very good reason for telling them so. It’s one thing to tell people that if they attend a wedding on Saturday evening, they should still attend a Sunday Mass, but when we cross the line and tell people that they have not fulfilled their Sunday obligation, that’s a different matter altogether.
T
tee_eff_em
Guest
dioceseoflincoln.org/purple/mass/mass8.htm
NB: The bold text means that a bishop may allow or prohibit the celebration of evening Masses. But as the subsequent text makes clear, if he has allowed them, he (nor any priest of his diocese) cannot say “Some of those evening Masses fulfill the following day’s obligation and others do not”.
I mention it only because I misinterpreted it on first reading.
tee
P
Phemie
Guest
It’s interesting to note that in Canada Ritual Masses are are not allowed on Sundays. Furthermore, Sunday weddings are strongly discouraged but if one needs to be celebrated the Mass of the Day is used with the Nuptial Blessing and one of the Wedding readings.
L
LindaSK
Guest
This is also what I found in the Diocese of Baton Rouge: diobr.org/worship/09ly.htm
For example:
*Sunday, November 30, 2008 – First Sunday of Advent
bullet As on all Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation, Funeral Masses are not permitted on this day. The Vigil Service for a funeral tomorrow may take place on Sunday evening.
bullet As on all Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation, weddings are not permitted on this day…
Monday, December 8, 2008 - Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception
bullet This Solemnity is a Holy Day of Obligation.
bullet Funeral Masses are not permitted on this day, since it is a Holy Day of Obligation.
bullet Ritual Masses are not permitted on Solemnities, meaning that a wedding which takes place must use the proper Mass texts and Lectionary readings taken from the Marian Solemnity.*
This would settle the entire issue, wouldn’t it? If every diocese would adopt such a policy, a wedding or funeral would never fall at a time that it could satisfy a Sunday or Holy Day obligation. This question would not even arise. Or am I misunderstanding something?
Thank you.
L
LindaSK
Guest
“Bishops have the option of permitting Saturday evening Masses to fulfill the Sunday obligations of the faithful and so it is in this diocese. However, it could be different in another place.”
I am not trying to be difficult, but there seems to be great confusion over this issue. Since missing Sunday Mass without good cause is a mortal sin, I see it as an important issue.
Thank you.*
But, that seems to indicate to me that if a bishop has the “option of permitting Saturday evening Masses to fulfill the Sunday obligations of the faithful”, then a priest in that diocese would be doing what his bishop requires by reminding the faithful attending the Mass that it does not fulfill their Sunday obligation if that is what his bishop has determined. Is this something that can vary from diocese to diocese based upon the bishop? If so, then isn’t the priest is only doing what his bishop requires in his diocese?NB: The bold text means that a bishop may allow or prohibit the celebration of evening Masses. But as the subsequent text makes clear, if he has allowed them, he (nor any priest of his diocese) cannot say “Some of those evening Masses fulfill the following day’s obligation and others do not”.
I mention it only because I misinterpreted it on first reading.
tee
I am not trying to be difficult, but there seems to be great confusion over this issue. Since missing Sunday Mass without good cause is a mortal sin, I see it as an important issue.
Thank you.*
F
FrDavid96
Guest
It seems to me that you do understand it. Wedding Mases are prohibited on these days (by the bishop who has the authority to set the liturgical schedules for his diocese) specifically because they fulfill the obligation, and it avoids the whole issue–in a pastorally sensitive way.
F
FrDavid96
Guest
T
tee_eff_em
Guest
It is not the interpretation of the word *option *which I contest, it is the interpretation of the word to. I believe the correct interpretation of the sentence is:
Bishops have the option of permitting Saturday evening Masses [in order] to fulfill the Sunday obligations of the faithful…
For instance: I believe that the Archdiocese of Philadelphia was the last See in the US to permit Saturday evening Masses for the purpose of fulfilling the Sunday obligation (sometime after 1978, perhaps as late as 1983), prior to which occasion, the Sunday obligation could only be fulfilled on Sunday – Saturday evening Masses, nuptial or otherwise, were not permitted (with the possible exception of proper vigil Masses).
tee
F
FrDavid96
Guest
Ritual Masses are permitted on Sundays of Ordinal time. Here’s GIRM 372
372. Ritual Masses are connected to the celebration of certain Sacraments or Sacramentals. They are prohibited on Sundays of Advent, Lent, and Easter, on solemnities, on the days within the Octave of Easter, on the Commemoration of All the Faithful Departed (All Souls’ Day), on Ash Wednesday, and during Holy Week, taking due account of the norms given in the ritual books or in the Masses themselves
At the same time, the individual bishops of the Canadian dioceses can make it a policy not to allow ritual Masses on Sundays, but that would be a matter of an individual policy (particular law) for each diocese–and a bishop could change that however he sees fit; Unless the Canadian bishops conference has requested a change to the GIRM and received the recognition from Rome–I don’t know if that’s the case.
Likewise, the matter of requiring the Sunday readings would be particular law for each diocese, not a law affecting the country as a whole–even if coincidentally, each diocese has the same policy. It might even be a matter of “everyone is doing it this way” even though the liturgical law doesn’t require it, or forbid the ritual readings.
F
FrDavid96
Guest
tee, so that other readers understand what we’re saying here:
That’s a different matter because the Archdiocese of Philadelphia held-off on approving Saturday evening Masses but that was under the old 1917 codex. At that time, Saturday evening Masses were only permitted if the bishop allowed them. When the 1983 code was promulgated, that changed, and Saturday evening became liturgical Sunday–approval is no longer required. In fact, not only is approval not required, but Sunday itself is “lengthened.” Under the new code, Sunday begins at 4 PM (the time of 1st Vespers), and so there really is no such thing as a “Saturday evening Mass” there is only a Sunday Mass. (Pope John Paul II explained this in Dies Domini)
As a matter of setting the Mass schedule for the diocese, the bishop can either allow or forbid Saturday evening Masses. However, keep in mind, that the bishop can also say that he doesn’t allow Mass at 11:00 AM on Sundays, or require that every parish have a 9:00 AM Mass (he does this in his capacity of pastor of the diocese). He can set the schedule, but he can’t change the fact that a Mass celebrated on liturgical Sunday always fulfills the obligation.
P
Phemie
Guest
We won’t know that until the GIRM is implemented and that will only be when the new translation of the Roman Missal is promulgated. Until then we are still functioning with the 1975 GIRM. But the CCCB publishes the ORDO and it clearly states that no Ritual Masses are to be celebrated on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation (we only have two and don’t see too much demand for weddings on Christmas or New Year’s Day – New Year’s Eve, yes, NYD, no), certain solemnities and Holy Week.
L
LindaSK
Guest
Fr. David,
I realize this has no bearing on the original post where the wedding is at 5 PM Saturday, but, would you please comment on these posts…
*Jul 22, '08, 12:04 am
SirDonald SirDonald is offline
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Default Does a Saturday afternoon nuptial Mass satisfy the Sunday obligation?
I will be out of town helping to celebrate the sacrament of matrimony and I wondered: Does participating in a wedding Mass on a Saturday at 2:00 P.M. satisfy our Sunday obligation?
Last edited by Michelle Arnold; Jul 22, '08 at 2:24 pm.
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Old Jul 22, '08, 2:22 pm
Michelle Arnold Michelle Arnold is offline
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Default Re: Does a Saturday afternoon nuptial Mass satisfy the Sunday obligation?
Yes.
Recommended reading:
Excerpt…
Quote:
The obligation to participate in the Mass may be satisfied at any time during the twenty-four hours of the feast day itself, on the evening before it. “Evening” should be understood as anytime from 4:00 PM onward. The legislator uses the word “evening” (vesper), not “afternoon” (post meridiem); in keeping with the proper meaning of the word … an afternoon Mass before 4:00 is not an evening Mass and does not satisfy the obligation (New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law, Canon Law Society of America, 2000).
Quote:
What is “the evening of the previous day”? Despite the view of some commentators that this should be interpreted as beginning only at 1400 hours (2 PM) on that day, it is the firm view of this commentary that the evening of the previous day begins at midday (12 noon) on that day itself. In some dioceses there is a local regulation to the effect that the so-called vigil or anticipated Mass may not be celebrated before, say 5 or 6 PM… Those regulations do not in any way concern the time prescribed for fulfilling the obligation to assist at Mass: thus e.g. if in such a diocese a person were to attend a nuptial Mass in the early afternoon on Saturday, that person would have fulfilled the obligation … of this canon [1248] (The Canon Law: Letter & Spirit, Canon Law Society of Great Britain and Ireland, 1995).
Until Rome makes a definitive ruling on the issue, the only definitive timing we have for fulfilling the Sunday or holy day obligation on the previous day is afternoon. You’re free to pick your “expert opinion” as to time in the afternoon, but the only clear restriction is that a Saturday morning Mass would not fulfill the obligation.*
I found this line disturbing. That just doesn’t seem right. There may be differences from one diocese to another, so the ‘expert opinion’ should come from your bishop, not be of your own choosing. Right? Except for Easter Vigil, I thought, as I read in other posts in this thread, that Sunday does not begin until 4 PM Saturday? It seems to me the answer to these 2 questions is wrong because the weddings are too early on Saturday. A Mass that time of day would use Saturday readings, not Sunday readings, so a Wedding Mass that early should not fulfill a Sunday obligation. Please clarify.
Thank you.
I realize this has no bearing on the original post where the wedding is at 5 PM Saturday, but, would you please comment on these posts…
*Jul 22, '08, 12:04 am
SirDonald SirDonald is offline
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Default Does a Saturday afternoon nuptial Mass satisfy the Sunday obligation?
I will be out of town helping to celebrate the sacrament of matrimony and I wondered: Does participating in a wedding Mass on a Saturday at 2:00 P.M. satisfy our Sunday obligation?
Last edited by Michelle Arnold; Jul 22, '08 at 2:24 pm.
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Old Jul 22, '08, 2:22 pm
Michelle Arnold Michelle Arnold is offline
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Default Re: Does a Saturday afternoon nuptial Mass satisfy the Sunday obligation?
Yes.
Recommended reading:
Code:
* Does a nuptial Mass fulfill the Sunday obligation? [forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=20461](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=20461)*- If one attends a wedding Mass in the early afternoon on Saturday has the Sunday obligation been met?
Last edited by Michelle Arnold; Oct 29, '04 at 6:14 pm.
Quote:
The obligation to participate in the Mass may be satisfied at any time during the twenty-four hours of the feast day itself, on the evening before it. “Evening” should be understood as anytime from 4:00 PM onward. The legislator uses the word “evening” (vesper), not “afternoon” (post meridiem); in keeping with the proper meaning of the word … an afternoon Mass before 4:00 is not an evening Mass and does not satisfy the obligation (New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law, Canon Law Society of America, 2000).
Quote:
What is “the evening of the previous day”? Despite the view of some commentators that this should be interpreted as beginning only at 1400 hours (2 PM) on that day, it is the firm view of this commentary that the evening of the previous day begins at midday (12 noon) on that day itself. In some dioceses there is a local regulation to the effect that the so-called vigil or anticipated Mass may not be celebrated before, say 5 or 6 PM… Those regulations do not in any way concern the time prescribed for fulfilling the obligation to assist at Mass: thus e.g. if in such a diocese a person were to attend a nuptial Mass in the early afternoon on Saturday, that person would have fulfilled the obligation … of this canon [1248] (The Canon Law: Letter & Spirit, Canon Law Society of Great Britain and Ireland, 1995).
Until Rome makes a definitive ruling on the issue, the only definitive timing we have for fulfilling the Sunday or holy day obligation on the previous day is afternoon. You’re free to pick your “expert opinion” as to time in the afternoon, but the only clear restriction is that a Saturday morning Mass would not fulfill the obligation.*
I found this line disturbing. That just doesn’t seem right. There may be differences from one diocese to another, so the ‘expert opinion’ should come from your bishop, not be of your own choosing. Right? Except for Easter Vigil, I thought, as I read in other posts in this thread, that Sunday does not begin until 4 PM Saturday? It seems to me the answer to these 2 questions is wrong because the weddings are too early on Saturday. A Mass that time of day would use Saturday readings, not Sunday readings, so a Wedding Mass that early should not fulfill a Sunday obligation. Please clarify.
Thank you.
T
tee_eff_em
Guest
If you had not excerpted quite so much, you would have found:
tee
L
LindaSK
Guest
“This means that the Mass itself does not have to be specifically a Saturday vigil Mass; it can be a nuptial Mass, a funeral Mass, an ordination Mass, an indult Tridentine Mass, an Eastern Catholic divine liturgy, etc.”
The questions in the cited posts as to whether or not they fulfilled the Sunday obligations were because the Mass was at 2:00 PM, or, in the other question, early afternoon. My point was that these were too early in the day Saturday. It is a question of the hour, not the liturgy here. Saturday Vigil Masses don’t begin until 4 PM as I understand. So, 2 PM is still Saturday, isn’t it?
The questions in the cited posts as to whether or not they fulfilled the Sunday obligations were because the Mass was at 2:00 PM, or, in the other question, early afternoon. My point was that these were too early in the day Saturday. It is a question of the hour, not the liturgy here. Saturday Vigil Masses don’t begin until 4 PM as I understand. So, 2 PM is still Saturday, isn’t it?
T
tee_eff_em
Guest
Apologies. I was responding to the final words of your post, viz:
which seem to object to the readings.
But enough of that then.
There are legitimate differences of opinion among the competent legislators (ie bishops and canon lawyers) regarding the time of “evening” (vespere). My understanding is that the 4pm-and-later view is prevalent (but not universal) in the US; the noon-and-later view is prevalent (but not universal) in the UK. But Rome has made no definitive pronouncement on this difference (and for all I know, no one has asked her to do so), hence its legitimacy.
But I Am Not A Canon Lawyer, and may well be mistaken.
tee
F
FrDavid96
Guest
I had to shorten your text to keep it under 7000 characters
Thank you.
Linda,
First of all, please understand that my following commentary is merely intended to be explanatory, and if my tone seems a little “harsh” I do not in any way intend it to be so. I’m merely trying to be clear, not impersonal or insensitive.
Please note that I’m going to reference canon law here so that you understand that I’m not just pulling these ideas out of my hat.
First of all, words are to be understood according to their plain meaning (canon 17). While the word “evening” is somewhat ambiguous, 2:00 PM is not evening by any reasonable definition. If we go down that road, I can just as easily define the word “Sunday” to mean the day between Monday and Wednesday. 2 PM is not evening (unless you’re at the North Pole in December) any more than Tuesday is Sunday. That does leave us with the question, when does evening begin? Again, we look to canon law: canon 16 says that laws are to be interpreted by the legislator (the law-giver). The legislator for the 1983 code of canon law was Pope John Paul II. Although I do not know of any official interpretation offered by HH JP II, he did write an encyclical letter Dies Domini in which he himself tells us that the proper time to understand evening-before is the time of first Vespers on Saturday. That’s 4:00 PM.
I do take issue with the magazine article saying that evening is subject to a personal interpretation. Pope John Paul II himself offered the interpretation, so there is no absence of one, as the article implies.
Let’s continue with canon law. Canon 1248 states:
Can. 1248 §1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.
Now, the canon clearly does not add any other qualifiers beyond saying that it must be a Catholic Mass (we can reasonably presume that it must be a valid Mass since that goes without saying–if it’s not valid, it’s not a true Mass). So we have to ask ourselves, can someone else come along and add an additional requirement that the law itself does not state? to be specific, can someone say “in addition to what’s stated in the canon, I will add that such a Mass must have the readings scheduled for that Sunday.”???
In canon law classes, this principle is taught on day-one: No one can add an additional requirement to the law which the law itself does not place there, or which the original legislator does not add. Unless the person making the statement “the Mass only counts if the Sunday readings are proclaimed” actually has the authority to make canon law (and last I checked, that was limited to the Pope), such additional requirements have no force-of-law.
But there is a serious problem with that line of reasoning that eliminates the Saturday evening Masses. Here it is: The Church never says that for a Mass to fulfill the Sunday precept, it must contain the scheduled readings. That’s the point I keep making over and over again. The Church is not the one saying that such a Mass does not count. It’s not in canon law. It’s not in the General Instruction for the Roman Missal, it’s not in the General Instruction for the Lectionary. It is not (so far as I know) in any authentic interpretation of the canon made by the Church. We might see it in magazine articles or internet posts, but the Church does not say it.
On the other hand, when we read the official liturgical laws of the Church, the Church allows for ritual Masses to be celebrated on Sundays of Ordinal time. The Church does so without ever making the qualification that the readings cannot be changed, or the qualification that such a Mass on Sunday would not fulfill the Sunday precept. If this is an oversight on the part of the Church, it’s no mere mistake, it’s a glaring omission and I say, downright negligent. But in nearly 40 years of having the current GIRM (which has been revised), and 26 years of the current code of canon law (which by the way was already revised once), the Church has never seen fit to “correct” this “oversight.” That tells me that it is no oversight. The canon means what it says, and the intent of the canon is expressed in the plain meaning of the words–otherwise it would have been corrected, no?
Conversely, we have ample examples of times when the Ordinal Time Sunday readings can be changed, and no one ever questions these. The obvious examples I keep giving are ordinations, confirmations, church-consecrations, etc. These are ritual Masses celebrated on Sundays with the readings from the ritual Masses, and no one ever thinks to question whether-or-not such Masses fulfill the Sunday obligation. Another glaring omission? Again, I think not.
Yet, in spite of what canon law says, in spite of what Liturgical law says, in spite of a complete absence of anything from the Church to indicate as much, there are those who attempt to make the claim that a Catholic who attends a wedding Mass during the time of Liturgical Sunday does not fulfill the Sunday precept.
Their arguments are not based on any canon law. Their arguments are not based on any liturgical law. Their arguments are not based on authentic interpretation made by the Church. They are adding their own requirement to the canon.
According to canon law, attendance at any Mass celebrated on the evening-before the Sunday, i.e. the time of first Vespers, as defined by Pope John Paul II in *Dies Domini *(4 PM) does indeed fulfill the obligation to attend a Mass on Sunday.
Masses celebrated before the time established by Pope John Paul II would not fulfill the Sunday obligation, because they would be on liturgical-Saturday, not liturgical-Sunday.
That last point bears repeating: A Mass before 4 PM would not fulfill the Sunday percept, regardless of what readings are used–because it has to be the “evening before” not the afternoon before or the morning before. I think that might be causing some confusion because when people say that a Saturday wedding Mass does not fulfill the Sunday obligation, oftentimes the necessary qualification “as long as it is in the evening (it does)” gets missed in the discussion.
Thanks for reading.
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