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hellopeople
Guest
The problem I have with this point of view is what if it isn’t the truth? What if the church is wrong? You just go around upsetting people. In my opinion, if something isn’t wrong according to a non religious ethicist, then you shouldn’t go around telling people it is wrong…because if someone with no religious ties does not believe it is wrong, then maybe God agrees with them.
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HappyHazel
Guest
First, the wedding has come and gone, I assume you went but it caused you to question and think about non-Catholic christians. One question is does your attendance show your approval. Yes it does in our culture, it assumes you accept their lifestyle. Next, question are they adulterer’s - no as the faith they have chosen to follow has blessed their marriage.
Second, in quoting Romans you quote an ancient law that kept men from abandoning their wives, leaving them with little or no income. Often they survived by becoming prostitudes. Just remember Jesus did not condemn the Samarian woman at the well that had five husbands. He saw in her the need for knowledge and desire for it.
Do not worry about following the rule as much as being an example in action, not boastful, or superior, but one that seeks to be a better person through Christ. To go to a wedding of another faith, it is important to let the host know, you come with love in your heart and wish them well under our one God. How they practice their faith is a choice of free will that they have made as adults.
Lastly in Matthew 19 Jesus discusses marriage, in the end you will note he says: “Let them accept it who can.” I would think he would want us to admit to the sin of adultery and to be forgiven and blessed by the church.
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lizaanne
Guest
I notice you have no religion listed. Do you believe in anything? God does not agree with sin, God abhors sin.
Jesus Christ left us the Catholic Church through His Apostles. There can be no error in the Church, God does not make error filled garbage.
Our only purpose on this planet is to get to Heaven. That’s it, period. It’s not to be all warm and fuzzy when there is sin occurring, it’s not to live the way WE want regardless of what Christ tells us we must do, it’s not to pick and choose what we want and don’t want from the cafeteria of faith to suit or own desires. It is to get to Heaven and to bring as many other people with us as possible.
~Liza
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hellopeople
Guest
The assertion that the Church can make no error is one only held by some Catholics. The way you live your life is completely based on this disputed assertion. I just don’t think that you should completely accept a belief system that preaches that it is bad or wrong to question or dispute it.
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lizaanne
Guest
You are certainly welcome to your opinion. That does not make it right or true. There can be only one TRUTH, not many truths.
~Liza
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hellopeople
Guest
Yes…and Catholicism is just as likely to be that truth as Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, etc. Or maybe they are all true in what actually matters, and everything else is just details that don’t matter.
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Joe_5859
Guest
I know what you’re saying. That’s why I don’t think that Catholics are obligated to boycott attending such weddings. The couple getting married is often coming from such a different worldview that such a thing makes no sense to them and can just cause hurt feelings that will hinder a possible future conversion.
However, that doesn’t change the fact that any Baptized Catholic (practicing or not) is still bound by Canon Law. This isn’t because the Catholic Church is an ogre and is trying to keep people under Her thumb. It is simply because the Church recognizes the awesome reality that is sacramental Baptism. Baptism leaves a permanent mark on the soul that will never go away. With such a great gift comes great responsibility.
Now, say someone is baptized Catholic because their grandparents want them to be baptized and their parents acquiesce out of perceived cultural obligation. Then that person leaves the Catholic Church because they were never really raised in it to begin with, and gets married outside the Church and never darkens a Church door for the rest of their lives. Will God have mercy on such a person? I certainly hope so! God has bound salvation to the sacraments, but He is not bound by them. I only recommend taking the path that has been revealed to us as the sure path (that which the Catholic Church lays out for us), but I hold out hope for everyone else and leave their judgment to God.
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andyandely1997
Guest
I agree, too many people worry more about what other people might think of them, instead of doing what is right according to God. And it is not pride to do what is correct in the eyes of God. Although, it is pride that leads us to believe we can do things our way without any consideration of God. If we follow Christ with trust & without fear, not all people are going to like us. But that is the point, it is not about us, it is about Christ. Following Christ is an act of the will, and too often, we let our feelings get in the way of what is right & wrong. And even if the world believes everything is relative, there is only the one truth of Jesus Christ.
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Joe_5859
Guest
I am glad you added that bit at the end. Our purpose in being here is not only to get ourselves to Heaven, but also to help others get to Heaven.
I think this especially true regarding those in our family.This is where I wrestle with this issue. We certainly want to put God first. We absolutely do not want to do anything immoral for the sake of “keeping the peace” or any other such excuse. But in my mind, there are more and less successful ways of doing this. If all we do is curtly tell the person “I am not attending your wedding because it is not valid and you are entering into an immoral living situation”, we are probably not helping our evangelization efforts. Such an act can be perceived as hurtful, especially if it is not grounded in any sort of relationship with the person.
I mean, I have relatives that I hardly ever see. I could turn down such a wedding invitation from one of them, give the above as reason, and live my merry life just the same. However, rather than be a witness for the true meaning of Marriage, the only thing I’ve succeeded in doing is supplying them with canon fodder for why Catholics are a bunch of holier-than-thou, joyless rubes. This is the type of thing I think we need to watch out for in these situations. If such “fraternal correction” does not come out of a genuine love and relationship with the person, it is not likely to have the desired effect.
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manualman
Guest
There is objective truth and then there is the capacity people have to comprehend it here and now. Jesus was extremely good at balancing on the razor edge by being sensitive to people’s feelings while never abandoning the truth. Being God probably helped…
It is an uncharitable approach to simply decline an invitation to a family wedding with the abrupt judgement that “I can’t come, that would condone adultery.”
It is equally uncharitable to completely give the appearance of approval to what is objectively a serious sin. As we know, sin causes harm whether or not the sinner intends harm or is even aware that the action is sinful.
I will soon face the same situation (with a cousin’s wedding). Not sure how I’ll handle it yet, but I need to try to balance that razors edge. At least with my cousin I’m pretty sure his previous marriage was invalid (no dispensation to marry a non-catholic).
I can understand why nonbelievers find all this bewildering or even contemptable. Since you don’t believe, you consider all this stuff arbitrary man-made ideology. We don’t. We understand it to be revealed by God himself. You can’t just blow that off to avoid upsetting somebody unless deep down, you don’t really believe it anyways.
As for disgust, consider the layers here. Religious principles absolutely have resulted in conflict in human history. I would argue that LACK of them have caused far more. Be careful what you wish for… Stay tuned, because you are rapidly getting yor wish in this culture and not coincidentally, it is getting uglier all the time.
This kind of thing DOES happen in other religions as well. Mormons “baptize” deceased ancestors as a matter of routine. As a catholic, I don’t care because I’m convinced they’re wrong on the matter. But I’m also not upset when the evangelical wing of my family “witnesses” to me (gotta save the catholic). It arises from principle, I can respect that. Why can’t others?
It is an uncharitable approach to simply decline an invitation to a family wedding with the abrupt judgement that “I can’t come, that would condone adultery.”
It is equally uncharitable to completely give the appearance of approval to what is objectively a serious sin. As we know, sin causes harm whether or not the sinner intends harm or is even aware that the action is sinful.
I will soon face the same situation (with a cousin’s wedding). Not sure how I’ll handle it yet, but I need to try to balance that razors edge. At least with my cousin I’m pretty sure his previous marriage was invalid (no dispensation to marry a non-catholic).
I can understand why nonbelievers find all this bewildering or even contemptable. Since you don’t believe, you consider all this stuff arbitrary man-made ideology. We don’t. We understand it to be revealed by God himself. You can’t just blow that off to avoid upsetting somebody unless deep down, you don’t really believe it anyways.
As for disgust, consider the layers here. Religious principles absolutely have resulted in conflict in human history. I would argue that LACK of them have caused far more. Be careful what you wish for… Stay tuned, because you are rapidly getting yor wish in this culture and not coincidentally, it is getting uglier all the time.
This kind of thing DOES happen in other religions as well. Mormons “baptize” deceased ancestors as a matter of routine. As a catholic, I don’t care because I’m convinced they’re wrong on the matter. But I’m also not upset when the evangelical wing of my family “witnesses” to me (gotta save the catholic). It arises from principle, I can respect that. Why can’t others?
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Dee123
Guest
You obviously don’t have a Christian belief system, because you abhor one that isn’t in agreement with yours…Because some of us don’t believe in your beliefs–perhaps atheist???- you hate us and find us disgusting. So very paradoxical. You despise what isn’t in accord with your opinion/beliefs…
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Dee123
Guest
I think you should go to your parish priest (only if you know he’s in agreement with the magisterium, ie the truth). Otherwise go to your bishop or to a priest that you can trust will give you a good answer. I’m not sure what to do. I have a 1st cousin that recently started dating our 1st cousin once removed. If they get married…I will be contacting a monsignour knowledgeable enough in Canon Law to find out if it’s o,k. Even though I may not like it, if they get the bishop’s approval, it’s o.k. and there’s no reason I cannot go…
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kage_ar
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Dee123
Guest
Thanks. I think I’ve gone over this before, or something like it. However, it looks like dispensation may have to come from Rome. I still need to talk to the monsignour (sp?)
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Think_About_It
Guest
I abhor bigotry. I know Christians that aren’t bigots, but they are few and far between. The iron-age religions, especially, hold themselves to a level of exaltation that hasn’t been completely demolished in the modern era. When people can’t celebrate diversity, then I can’t celebrate the creed that inhibits them from doing so. Do you see the distinction between your view of me and mine?
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Joe_5859
Guest
So, unless someone agrees with and follows your interpretation of “celebrating diversity”, you can’t accept them where they’re at? That doesn’t sound very tolerant of diverse viewpoints to me…
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Bookcat
Guest
My policy is that I do not give gifts or attend what will be an invalid marriage…it would be a lie and a celebration of something that was not true.
For we are not to approve such unions…
Now of course a particular couple may by subjectively in “good conscience” but I will still not celebrate something that is not true…it would be of no good service to them…or myself.
Catechism:
1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:
For we are not to approve such unions…
Now of course a particular couple may by subjectively in “good conscience” but I will still not celebrate something that is not true…it would be of no good service to them…or myself.
Catechism:
1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:
- by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
- by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
- by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;
- by protecting evil-doers.
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Think_About_It
Guest
It doesn’t? I’m tolerant of diverse viewpoints, not all of them. Do you see the distinction? I don’t tolerate intolerance. Kind of a paradox, I’ll admit, but one I’m sure you can understand all the same.So, unless someone agrees with and follows your interpretation of “celebrating diversity”, you can’t accept them where they’re at? That doesn’t sound very tolerant of diverse viewpoints to me…
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janine7
Guest
I stated in my original post that he had already married. I was wondering if I was the only one out there who felt it was wrong to attend such a wedding and give a gift. I didn’t face the dilemma of having to turn him down because he just had immediate family (no cousins) there.
I know someday I may face this dilemma. Two years ago, when my cousin, Jim was in the process of divorcing, I sat down with him and had a heart to heart talk with him about it being wrong to remarry. It was a very friendly discussion and he asked several questions.
That being said, I am not just coming to this conclusion as a Catholic, Before I converted to Catholicism, when I was an Evangelical Protestant I believed it was wrong based on what the Bible teaches. This is what I told Jim:
We’re supposed to love as Christ loved us…which is until death. He loved his Bride and sacrificed for Her while She was hating Him. No one can ever say their spouse was more abusive, crueler or abandoning or unfaithful that Christ’s Spouse! Yet He remained faithful. Then as the above verse says, “Be imitators of that kind of love”. …until death.
Almost 4 years ago, my husband divorced me. I cried out to the Lord and said in a torrent of emotion “Why should I remain faithful to him and keep praying for him? I want to just forget him. He has humiliated me, maligned me, been cruel to me, blackmailed me. He’s cast me aside in his heart by being excited about seeing other women.”
Jesus quietly answered me, “Yeah, they did all that to me too.”
I know what Jesus was telling me I had to keep my vows even though he didn’t keep his. Other people’s (my ex’s) behavior doesn’t determine what mine should be. Only Jesus’ example should determine our behavior. So I pray the rosary (as well as other prayers) and offer Masses for my ex every day
I know someday I may face this dilemma. Two years ago, when my cousin, Jim was in the process of divorcing, I sat down with him and had a heart to heart talk with him about it being wrong to remarry. It was a very friendly discussion and he asked several questions.
That being said, I am not just coming to this conclusion as a Catholic, Before I converted to Catholicism, when I was an Evangelical Protestant I believed it was wrong based on what the Bible teaches. This is what I told Jim:
- Throughout the Bible, marriage between a man and a woman is presented as imaging the relationship with God and Israel. In the New Testament it images Christ and His Bride, the Church. In that our marriages reflect our relationship with God, only physical death can end it. Divorce images breaking away from God.
- Read Jeremiah 3 (There are many other similar Old Testament passages) as an example of God stating that when Israel went after other gods she was committing adultery. Idolatry equates adultery.
- So when a baptized couple divorces, they still must remain faithful to each other because marriage is indisoluable . Matt. 19:6 says “What God has joined together, no human being must separate”. . Why do people think that the civil law trumps God’s law and wave a divorce certificate around declaring that now “I’m free to marry”. The civil law in some states says gays can marry. The civil law said 200 years ago that black people were subhuman and it was right to enslave them. Do we think that God is watching from heaven “Oh, now its OK with me that gays marry/blacks are considered fully human/people divorce and remarry but yesterday it wasn’t because the law wasn’t changed yet” (as if God were subject to our time constraints).
We’re supposed to love as Christ loved us…which is until death. He loved his Bride and sacrificed for Her while She was hating Him. No one can ever say their spouse was more abusive, crueler or abandoning or unfaithful that Christ’s Spouse! Yet He remained faithful. Then as the above verse says, “Be imitators of that kind of love”. …until death.
Almost 4 years ago, my husband divorced me. I cried out to the Lord and said in a torrent of emotion “Why should I remain faithful to him and keep praying for him? I want to just forget him. He has humiliated me, maligned me, been cruel to me, blackmailed me. He’s cast me aside in his heart by being excited about seeing other women.”
Jesus quietly answered me, “Yeah, they did all that to me too.”
I know what Jesus was telling me I had to keep my vows even though he didn’t keep his. Other people’s (my ex’s) behavior doesn’t determine what mine should be. Only Jesus’ example should determine our behavior. So I pray the rosary (as well as other prayers) and offer Masses for my ex every day
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