Wedding Sadness, Looking for insight

[iloveangels]

“Act like nuts?” Really? Is that what you think when anyone professes strong belief in the tenets of their faith?

These parents have a right to their own faith. They don’t have a right to impose it on anyone else, no.

 

[Corki]

Her parents are upset. Her parents are sad. That doesn’t give them the right to act like nuts. They need to work something out.

I think everyone agrees that the parents, IF the OP’s description is accurate, were not very charitable in how they expressed theselves and it was wrong of them to try to get her to lie in order to be married in the Church. They *might *be able to work something out. Or they might just have to accept that they don’t agree on this. From the OP’s later post, it sounds like, at least as far as her mother is concerned, that the latter is more likely.

 

[dixieagle]

These parents have a right to their own faith. They don’t have a right to impose it on anyone else, no.

But they do have a right to be sad, upset, and terribly distressed, as any Catholic should be that a fellow Catholic has rejected the faith… moreso because it is their daughter.

 

[iloveangels]

But they do have a right to be sad, upset, and terribly distressed, as any Catholic should be that a fellow Catholic has rejected the faith… moreso because it is their daughter.

I understand that they’re upset. I understand that they don’t like it. I understand all that.

But the fact is that this is not a movie playing in their heads, and they can’t just turn the channel and make it all better.

This is their daughter and she’s not a little kid anymore. And she turned out not to be Catholic. She can do that.

 

[iloveangels]

I think everyone agrees that the parents, IF the OP’s description is accurate, were not very charitable in how they expressed theselves and it was wrong of them to try to get her to lie in order to be married in the Church. They *might *be able to work something out. Or they might just have to accept that they don’t agree on this. From the OP’s later post, it sounds like, at least as far as her mother is concerned, that the latter is more likely.

Yeah, asking her to fake it and go through a Catholic ceremony–like a great big lie–is pretty ripe. I can’t imagine how they expect her to do that with a straight face. That’s immoral.

Not to mention her poor fiance, who’s never been Catholic, but who’s caught in this river of craziness. How is he supposed to stand there and pretend this is all perfectly all right?

 

[Corki]

And in some cases, the wisdom of this is questionable. When a person grows up and wants to leave they can, and that’s a fact.

Why would the wisdom be questionable? If they are baptised and brought up in the Church , there is a much higher chance that they will remain pracicing Catholics than if they aren’t baptised at all.

It’s as much about consent as it is about logistics. If you never get around to it, they’re not going to come to your house and drag you down there. In fact, you may never even hear anything about it.

You lost me here. Drag who? The baby? Hear about what?

So the questions are entirely rhetorical? That’s interesting.

No, “rhetorical” would mean they are meant only for your own consideration and not meant to be answered. These are questions that need to be answered but mostly they are administrative.

For example, if you answer that the god parents aren’t Catholic, they are going to explain why you need Catholic godparents.

Actually an indefinite “not now” is the same as “never.”

Effectively but that’s not on the part of the Church. The Church doesn’t deny Baptism to anyone but may delay it until some things are straightened out. It’s up to the parents to straighten them out. Some do eventually,some never do.

What difference does it make what the church expects if you’re forced to do it anyway? Why should it matter if once you’re baptized, you can’t leave?

The Church isn’t forcing them to do anything.

The teaching about coming back is always the same for one simple reason: The church will take back anyone who wants to come back. [Sometimes with conditions, but still]

Conditions? Not sure what you mean by that but, yes, once a Catholic, you are always welcome to return to the practice of your faith.

 

[minkymurph]

You’re nitpicking. The subject of formal defection from the Church was brought up and I was using this as an example of a reason why it’s not just a simple “walk-out-the-door” exercise everywhere in the world. As a point of fact, in Austria, for instance, it’s not just a “walk-out-the-door” exercise.

OK I’m nit picking. To be quite honest I got totally lost in relevance of this line of argument in relation to the topic of the thread anyway.

 

[Phemie]

As far as I know, the only “consent” type question is to make sure that the person who is asking for Baptism has the legal right to do so.

Sorry, but you’re wrong on this one.

During the ceremony, after the Renunciation of Sin and the Profession of Faith, the parents are specifically asked “Is it your will that N. be baptized?” Should their reply be ‘No," the Baptism would not go ahead. The Church says that unless they are in danger of death we may not baptize ‘infants’ against their parents’ will.

 

[Corki]

Yeah, asking her to fake it and go through a Catholic ceremony–like a great big lie–is pretty ripe. I can’t imagine how they expect her to do that with a straight face. That’s immoral.

Not to mention her poor fiance, who’s never been Catholic, but who’s caught in this river of craziness. How is he supposed to stand there and pretend this is all perfectly all right?

But don’t forget, she wants them to “fake it” too.

As for her fiance, if she didn’t tell him her parents were Catholic and that she herself was brought up Catholic, they have other problems besides the wedding.

 

[Corki]

Sorry, but you’re wrong on this one.

During the ceremony, after the Renunciation of Sin and the Profession of Faith, the parents are specifically asked “Is it your will that N. be baptized?” Should their reply be ‘No," the Baptism would not go ahead. The Church says that unless they are in danger of death we may not baptize ‘infants’ against their parents’ will.

I know it is a semantic difference but the poster was saying that without affirmative consent the person is not “truly Catholic”. That’s not exactly the same as saying that a baptism will not go forward against the parents wishes. If for some reason, that question was ommitted, the Baptism would be completely valid if illicit.

(But we were talking about the questions asked when calling to set up the Baptism, not during the rite itself anyway)

 

[Phemie]

Conditions? Not sure what you mean by that but, yes, once a Catholic, you are always welcome to return to the practice of your faith.

If you have committed heresy (which could be what the OP has done by publicly proclaiming that she doesn’t believe the dogma that we are required to believe and has publicly joined a non-Catholic ecclesial community) you have excommunicated yourself and you may not be as simple as confession to the local Pastor. You may be required to confess to the Bishop to have the excommunication lifted or go to a parish where a priest has the faculties to lift that specific excommunication.

 

[Corki]

If you have committed heresy (which could be what the OP has done by publicly proclaiming that she doesn’t believe the dogma that we are required to believe and has publicly joined a non-Catholic ecclesial community) you have excommunicated yourself and you may not be as simple as confession to the local Pastor. You may be required to confess to the Bishop to have the excommunication lifted or go to a parish where a priest has the faculties to lift that specific excommunication.

Ok, I get what you mean.

 

[Phemie]

But is it not the case that someone who was baptized Catholic, but did not make their first confession, receive Holy Communion and was not Confirmed would not be able to marry in a Catholic Church unless they did because they are not in full communion with the Church?

No. They are in full communion by virtue of their Catholic Baptism. They are not fully initiated. That’s a horse of a different colour.

That’s perhaps what I was getting at and a better term, not in full communion. It’s not they are not Catholic at all but rather not in full communion? For instance, in my part of the world children receive their first Holy Communion at 7/8, and are Confirmed at 11. They must receive Holy Communion on the tongue until they have been Confirmed because they are not in full communion with the Church.

Again, they are not fully initiated. If they weren’t in full communion they wouldn’t be receiving Communion. That’s what ‘not in full communion’ means. Anglicans are validly baptized but they are not in full communion with the big “C” Catholic Church. They can’t ordinarily receive Communion in the Catholic Church (there are exceptions but they are rare). To be received into full communion they must be instructed, make a profession of faith and be confirmed. Then they complete their initiation by receiving Communion.

There is also much discussion and debate surrounding Confirming children at 11 as many consider it too young.

There is no such thing as too young since infants are baptized if they are in danger of death. The Church requires a lot less of children to be confirmed than it does to receive Communion. To receive Communion they must understand what they are doing and be able to do it reverently. There is no such requirement for Confirmation. If they’re mature enough to receive Communion they are mature enough to be confirmed.

I see what you mean, but is the ‘extra’ not taken on by the parents, as in they accept certain responsibilities and it’s not just a matter of having the child baptized? I would also say that while we do our best as parents, there reaches a stage where their children must embrace the Catholic faith of their own free will, and not just because we tell them to, and it is better for them if they do in terms of faith development. If they don’t do that, they’re only being Catholic to please us if you catch my drift.

They don’t get to choose whether to be Catholics, they are Catholics by virtue of their Baptism. They are free to not practice their faith.

 

[minkymurph]

No. They are in full communion by virtue of their Catholic Baptism. They are not fully initiated. That’s a horse of a different colour.

OK, they’re not fully initiated. As such, can it be categorically stated that if one has been baptized and has not made first penance, received first Holy Communion, Confirmed one is not fully initiated into the Catholic Church?

The Church requires a lot less of children to be confirmed than it does to receive Communion. To receive Communion they must understand what they are doing and be able to do it reverently. There is no such requirement for Confirmation. If they’re mature enough to receive Communion they are mature enough to be confirmed.

I don’t know what point you are making. It seems unrelated to the one I was making. However, I agree if a child is old enough to receive Communion they are old enough to be Confirmed. So in line with your comment I will rephrase. I am stating this because I can understand why some people think children should be older when they are Confirmed. I would like to stress what I write should be taken as any indication of what I personally think. If some are unsure in relation to how much children can understand at 11, then they are possibly more unsure if children can understand what they are doing and are mature enough to receive Holy Communion at 7 or 8.

They don’t get to choose whether to be Catholics, they are Catholics by virtue of their Baptism. They are free to not practice their faith.

In relation to this thread, this is what I would see as the main issue of controversy - people not being free to choose.

 

[Elizium23]

Irrelevant, the OP has received all her sacraments, they are putatively valid, and she is fully initiated in the Catholic Church.

 

[Corki]

Irrelevant, the OP has received all her sacraments, they are putatively valid, and she is fully initiated in the Catholic Church.

I know it’s not relevent but this is one of my pet peeves and I just can’t leave it hanging out there.

OK, they’re not fully initiated. As such, can it be categorically stated that if one has been baptized and has not made first penance, received first Holy Communion, Confirmed one is not fully initiated into the Catholic Church?

Yes, until you have received all three of the Sacraments of initiation (Confession is not part of these), you are not a fully initiated Catholic. However, the difference is not a quantitative one. It’s not like being a “junior Catholic” or a “temporary Catholic”. Each Sacrament imparts particular graces but does not make a person more Catholic.

I don’t know what point you are making. It seems unrelated to the one I was making. However, I agree if a child is old enough to receive Communion they are old enough to be Confirmed. So in line with your comment I will rephrase. I am stating this because I can understand why some people think children should be older when they are Confirmed. I would like to stress what I write should be taken as any indication of what I personally think. If some are unsure in relation to how much children can understand at 11, then they are possibly more unsure if children can understand what they are doing and are mature enough to receive Holy Communion at 7 or 8.

This is where I get my dander up. There is no level of maturity needed for Confirmation. The ancient tradition is to receive Confirmation as an infant and it is still the case that Confirmation should be conferred upon an infant or small child in danger of death. In fact, children over the age of around 6 or 7 who are unbaptized enter the Church receiving all three Sacraments.

In my experience the people who think that an older age is better usually misunderstand the Sacrament and think it is about the child making some kind of affirmation of their beliefs or public acceptance of the Catholic faith. It’s not.

In relation to this thread, this is what I would see as the main issue of controversy - people not being free to choose

But they are free to choose. It’s just that choices have consequences and sometimes those consequences involve conflict with loved ones.

 

[Elizium23]

But they are free to choose. It’s just that choices have consequences and sometimes those consequences involve conflict with loved ones.

I would say that the consequences of denying the Eucharist are far greater and more eternal than mere conflict with mom and dad.

 

[ToBeWedBarb]

But don’t forget, she wants them to “fake it” too.

As for her fiance, if she didn’t tell him her parents were Catholic and that she herself was brought up Catholic, they have other problems besides the wedding.

I don’t want my parents to fake anything. I accept that they want me to marry in a Catholic church instead of the Methodist church. I accept that they will not see my marriage as sacramental or valid due to their Catholic beliefs I would love for them to attend my wedding, if they can find it in their hearts to do so. Even if they are disappointed in me. If they can’t come, they can’t. I am not asking them to be overjoyed that I’ve had a conversion to another religion. I am asking them to attend our wedding. My fiance is an amazing man who is hard-working, so respectful of me, thoughtful, generous, patient, kind, intelligent, chaste, devoted… There is no reason that they should not be happy that I’m marrying such a quality man. In no way am I asking my parents to fake being okay with my conversion. I am asking them to attend my wedding and be has happy for me as they can, enjoy themselves and support us as we start a new life and family together.

And OF COURSE I told my fiance that my family is Catholic and that I was raised as a Catholic! That information was shared on date one, many years ago. My fiance has spent a lot of time around my parents, siblings and grandparents including having joined them for Mass on MANY occasions (we happily attend Mass with my family on holidays and if we’re with them on Sunday.) My fiance knows everything about me that could possibly ever be important in our marriage. He knows my conversion story and all about my parents’ faith.

 

[dixieagle]

I don’t want my parents to fake anything. I accept that they want me to marry in a Catholic church instead of the Methodist church. I accept that they will not see my marriage as sacramental or valid due to their Catholic beliefs I would love for them to attend my wedding, if they can find it in their hearts to do so. Even if they are disappointed in me. If they can’t come, they can’t. I am not asking them to be overjoyed that I’ve had a conversion to another religion. I am asking them to attend our wedding. My fiance is an amazing man who is hard-working, so respectful of me, thoughtful, generous, patient, kind, intelligent, chaste, devoted… There is no reason that they should not be happy that I’m marrying such a quality man. In no way am I asking my parents to fake being okay with my conversion. I am asking them to attend my wedding and be has happy for me as they can, enjoy themselves and support us as we start a new life and family together.

And OF COURSE I told my fiance that my family is Catholic and that I was raised as a Catholic! That information was shared on date one, many years ago. My fiance has spent a lot of time around my parents, siblings and grandparents including having joined them for Mass on MANY occasions (we happily attend Mass with my family on holidays and if we’re with them on Sunday.) My fiance knows everything about me that could possibly ever be important in our marriage. He knows my conversion story and all about my parents’ faith.

This is a terribly difficult situation, and I don’t know what to say, given the deeply held beliefs, except that I’ll pray for a solution that brings peace to all concerned.

 

[daisybee]

I don’t want my parents to fake anything. I accept that they want me to marry in a Catholic church instead of the Methodist church. I accept that they will not see my marriage as sacramental or valid due to their Catholic beliefs I would love for them to attend my wedding, if they can find it in their hearts to do so. Even if they are disappointed in me. If they can’t faith.

Perhaps it would help to forward the following article to them for their review, because they may be trying to make a decision without realizing what all of their options are. It may help in their decision making.

Note that the article advises people such as your parents to speak with a priest/spiritual director to discuss possibilities.

cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=137