Weird MAJOR Atheist/Catholicism Quandry-how to deal with it

[HarveyL]

I’ve been an atheist most of my life (I’m 65 and an atheist since the age of 7). I’ve fallen in love with a practicing Catholic woman who, upon her invitation, I accompany to Mass every week and have been doing so for many months now. Note, too, that in this post when I use the term “cognitive” I mean when I’m thinking without emotion, sort of like Mr. Spock, devoid of as much emotional connection as my mind can sum up.

I have always had a deep level of curiosity about many things and, since going to Mass, I’ve asked many questions and read many things about the meaning of the Mass and what it means to be Catholic. My learning has drawn me closer both to my, now, fiancee and to Catholicism. I’m very impressed with the incredible amount of thought behind the Catechism, the beauty of the Church, and the rituals, not to mention the morality and goodness of Catholic thinking and practice, as I’ve seen it so far. I even decided to, what I thought to be temporary, give up atheistic viewpoints for Lent (and discussed this in a separate thread).

My history is Jewish but I don’t practice and haven’t done so since I was 13 when I was forced/strongly-encouraged to have a Bar Mitzvah. My fiancee would be overjoyed if I converted to Catholic, but she wants it to be my decision. I even hired a certified hypnotist to believe in God though she said that can’t be done in any long term manner, she instead opened me up to “spirituality”. This had two affects: I find myself annoyed when I read or hear atheists espousing their beliefs (even though I agree with them!) and my fiancee giggles when this happens as she feels similarly, and I am filled with a feeling of love and community when we go to Mass together, far more than previously.

Here’s the issue, and it’s a strange one. When I go to Church it’s as though I believe in God completely. Note that I and my fiancee have both been praying for my belief. But, when I’m in my ordinary world, outside the Church, I revert to my atheistic beliefs which are now 100% in my cognitive mind and 50% in my emotional self (it used to be 100% at all times, on both levels) though for Lent I didn’t reveal this and, instead, decided to only have positive thoughts and actions regarding belief and Catholicism.

I’ve read many of the apologetics and my cognitive mind easily finds answers that undermine the logic of all of the apologetics, including the first cause explanation, which I think is among the best of the arguments. Yet, emotionally, now, I feel a MAJOR draw to Catholicism. So, I both (and I use this term on purpose) love Catholicism at the same time that I don’t believe (cognitively) its major foundational beliefs: the Resurrection, the existence of God and transubstantiation. Note, though, that emotionally I do believe all of this. (?!)

This is a very strange place to be, trust me. It’s almost as if I’m two people, but I’m not crazy, I am one person.

Let me just free associate and say what I want and let you out there help sort this quandry for me.

Now, I want to become Catholic (I’m registering for the RCIA and am being guided until then by our Catholic priest who is giving me tasks to do in preparation). I want to have our marriage as a sacrament as this would both satisfy my fiancee (and myself) and place our marriage in the highest order. I want to go to Mass at least once a week, and on all high holy days, for the rest of my life. I want to go to Confession and be absolved of my sins and seek Penance. I want to convert and live a life of deeper conversion every day. I want my marriage to be inspired by Jesus and God. I want to use the list of sins and the 10 Commandments as the moral code to live by. I want to be able to think and feel Catholic, to vote with Catholic conscience (note, I am (cognitively) for birth control, abortion, gay rights but FEEL a kinship with Catholic morals and want that, too, to enter my cognitive beliefs since I understand the connection that the Catholic Catechism has so clearly described) but can not, now, connect the two parts of myself: the emotional and the cognitive.

When I am outside the Church, in my everyday life, I can’t find myself to believe that God exists. I hold very “progressive” political viewpoints that violate Catholic doctrine. The exception comes only when I’m with my fiancee and feeling great love for her. At those times I feel God is working His hand in my relationship and guiding me to a holy life. That is the only exception. And, another strange observation: when I’m in Church I feel this same feeling. I’m actually turned on, sexually, about all things Catholic.

I’m very, very confused about it all and don’t know what to do with this.

 

[HarveyL]

Note, I stated that the hypnotist merely awakened a spiritual side of me, nothing specific and definitely nothing having to do with Catholicism per se. I’d also dispute your idea that hypnotism and free will are opposites since a hypnotist can only deal with what one actually wants and that’s what actually occurred.

 

[HarveyL]

In my research on the Church’s position on hypnosis, she is not against all hypnosis but, rather, more focused on things occult, etc.
Yes, I was aware the whole time, as people are typically during hypnosis. There are a lot of misconceptions in that regard.
Either way, I posted this for the purpose of actually addressing my current situation, as amply described, yes?

 

[Voltrael]

The hypnosis thing seems to be distracting from what could be an interesting thread. Hypnosis does not work like on TV where you can convince someone to do anything you want. The hypnotist has to work with what is already there. Hypnotism is a form of persuasion, making people believe things that they were already open to believing.

I’m a Catholic that has found himself over the last few years doubting there is a God, so I am interested in the experience of someone trying to go the other direction and discover a God they didn’t believe existed.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

You only know what hypnotists tell you they are doing.

Now you say you realised a lot of thought has gone into the Catholic faith.

Then you say that the sympathy is emotional when you are in the vicinity of the church and nil when you are away from it. Well, it’s natural that it’s less when you’re not there. This might in practice of course be coinciding with when you are with and not with your fiance?

I’m thinking of the coupling of emotion and thought in proper proportion.

I speak as one who has always been a Catholic formally but our family was always coming towards the Church from very much on the fringes (hence my current “religion description”) (and I’m Jewish by descent myself).

In my opinion it is a lifetime of substance to learn to grapple with. I am concerned about you and your fiance. I think she should be crystal clear whether she is prepared to be married to you before you have advanced very much on your journey.

It’s “convenient” for clergy to deal with you in a program and for the program to be short and for nothing more to happen after it.

If at all possible stick with the Church as much as you possibly can, while not enrolling yet, I’d say. And research the maximum prospects for ongoing intensive catechesis for the rest of your life or lives post-baptismally.

“He comes slowly, slowly, carrying the lambs on His shoulder” (Isaiah).

It’s no use in my opinion thinking a sketchy middle part will substitute for the whole. You’ve got to be much more cool about it and calculating or the army will meet with defeat and the house will collapse. It’s your life and probably your fiance’s.

 

[meltzerboy]

I’ve been an atheist most of my life (I’m 65 and an atheist since the age of 7). I’ve fallen in love with a practicing Catholic woman who, upon her invitation, I accompany to Mass every week and have been doing so for many months now. Note, too, that in this post when I use the term “cognitive” I mean when I’m thinking without emotion, sort of like Mr. Spock, devoid of as much emotional connection as my mind can sum up.

I have always had a deep level of curiosity about many things and, since going to Mass, I’ve asked many questions and read many things about the meaning of the Mass and what it means to be Catholic. My learning has drawn me closer both to my, now, fiancee and to Catholicism. I’m very impressed with the incredible amount of thought behind the Catechism, the beauty of the Church, and the rituals, not to mention the morality and goodness of Catholic thinking and practice, as I’ve seen it so far. I even decided to, what I thought to be temporary, give up atheistic viewpoints for Lent (and discussed this in a separate thread).

My history is Jewish but I don’t practice and haven’t done so since I was 13 when I was forced/strongly-encouraged to have a Bar Mitzvah. My fiancee would be overjoyed if I converted to Catholic, but she wants it to be my decision. I even hired a certified hypnotist to believe in God though she said that can’t be done in any long term manner, she instead opened me up to “spirituality”. This had two affects: I find myself annoyed when I read or hear atheists espousing their beliefs (even though I agree with them!) and my fiancee giggles when this happens as she feels similarly, and I am filled with a feeling of love and community when we go to Mass together, far more than previously.

Here’s the issue, and it’s a strange one. When I go to Church it’s as though I believe in God completely. Note that I and my fiancee have both been praying for my belief. But, when I’m in my ordinary world, outside the Church, I revert to my atheistic beliefs which are now 100% in my cognitive mind and 50% in my emotional self (it used to be 100% at all times, on both levels) though for Lent I didn’t reveal this and, instead, decided to only have positive thoughts and actions regarding belief and Catholicism.

I’ve read many of the apologetics and my cognitive mind easily finds answers that undermine the logic of all of the apologetics, including the first cause explanation, which I think is among the best of the arguments. Yet, emotionally, now, I feel a MAJOR draw to Catholicism. So, I both (and I use this term on purpose) love Catholicism at the same time that I don’t believe (cognitively) its major foundational beliefs: the Resurrection, the existence of God and transubstantiation. Note, though, that emotionally I do believe all of this. (?!)

This is a very strange place to be, trust me. It’s almost as if I’m two people, but I’m not crazy, I am one person.

Let me just free associate and say what I want and let you out there help sort this quandry for me.

Now, I want to become Catholic (I’m registering for the RCIA and am being guided until then by our Catholic priest who is giving me tasks to do in preparation). I want to have our marriage as a sacrament as this would both satisfy my fiancee (and myself) and place our marriage in the highest order. I want to go to Mass at least once a week, and on all high holy days, for the rest of my life. I want to go to Confession and be absolved of my sins and seek Penance. I want to convert and live a life of deeper conversion every day. I want my marriage to be inspired by Jesus and God. I want to use the list of sins and the 10 Commandments as the moral code to live by. I want to be able to think and feel Catholic, to vote with Catholic conscience (note, I am (cognitively) for birth control, abortion, gay rights but FEEL a kinship with Catholic morals and want that, too, to enter my cognitive beliefs since I understand the connection that the Catholic Catechism has so clearly described) but can not, now, connect the two parts of myself: the emotional and the cognitive.

When I am outside the Church, in my everyday life, I can’t find myself to believe that God exists. I hold very “progressive” political viewpoints that violate Catholic doctrine. The exception comes only when I’m with my fiancee and feeling great love for her. At those times I feel God is working His hand in my relationship and guiding me to a holy life. That is the only exception. And, another strange observation: when I’m in Church I feel this same feeling. I’m actually turned on, sexually, about all things Catholic.

I’m very, very confused about it all and don’t know what to do with this.

I was thinking there must be a good priest or Catholic counselor with whom you can talk, express your concerns and conflicts, and sort things out. Best wishes on your spiritual journey.

 

[Catholic1954]

I’ve been an atheist most of my life (I’m 65 and an atheist since the age of 7). I’ve fallen in love with a practicing Catholic woman who, upon her invitation, I accompany to Mass every week and have been doing so for many months now. Note, too, that in this post when I use the term “cognitive” I mean when I’m thinking without emotion, sort of like Mr. Spock, devoid of as much emotional connection as my mind can sum up.

I have always had a deep level of curiosity about many things and, since going to Mass, I’ve asked many questions and read many things about the meaning of the Mass and what it means to be Catholic. My learning has drawn me closer both to my, now, fiancee and to Catholicism. I’m very impressed with the incredible amount of thought behind the Catechism, the beauty of the Church, and the rituals, not to mention the morality and goodness of Catholic thinking and practice, as I’ve seen it so far. I even decided to, what I thought to be temporary, give up atheistic viewpoints for Lent (and discussed this in a separate thread).

My history is Jewish but I don’t practice and haven’t done so since I was 13 when I was forced/strongly-encouraged to have a Bar Mitzvah. My fiancee would be overjoyed if I converted to Catholic, but she wants it to be my decision. I even hired a certified hypnotist to believe in God though she said that can’t be done in any long term manner, she instead opened me up to “spirituality”. This had two affects: I find myself annoyed when I read or hear atheists espousing their beliefs (even though I agree with them!) and my fiancee giggles when this happens as she feels similarly, and I am filled with a feeling of love and community when we go to Mass together, far more than previously.

Here’s the issue, and it’s a strange one. When I go to Church it’s as though I believe in God completely. Note that I and my fiancee have both been praying for my belief. But, when I’m in my ordinary world, outside the Church, I revert to my atheistic beliefs which are now 100% in my cognitive mind and 50% in my emotional self (it used to be 100% at all times, on both levels) though for Lent I didn’t reveal this and, instead, decided to only have positive thoughts and actions regarding belief and Catholicism.

I’ve read many of the apologetics and my cognitive mind easily finds answers that undermine the logic of all of the apologetics, including the first cause explanation, which I think is among the best of the arguments. Yet, emotionally, now, I feel a MAJOR draw to Catholicism. So, I both (and I use this term on purpose) love Catholicism at the same time that I don’t believe (cognitively) its major foundational beliefs: the Resurrection, the existence of God and transubstantiation. Note, though, that emotionally I do believe all of this. (?!)

This is a very strange place to be, trust me. It’s almost as if I’m two people, but I’m not crazy, I am one person.

Let me just free associate and say what I want and let you out there help sort this quandry for me.

Now, I want to become Catholic (I’m registering for the RCIA and am being guided until then by our Catholic priest who is giving me tasks to do in preparation). I want to have our marriage as a sacrament as this would both satisfy my fiancee (and myself) and place our marriage in the highest order. I want to go to Mass at least once a week, and on all high holy days, for the rest of my life. I want to go to Confession and be absolved of my sins and seek Penance. I want to convert and live a life of deeper conversion every day. I want my marriage to be inspired by Jesus and God. I want to use the list of sins and the 10 Commandments as the moral code to live by. I want to be able to think and feel Catholic, to vote with Catholic conscience (note, I am (cognitively) for birth control, abortion, gay rights but FEEL a kinship with Catholic morals and want that, too, to enter my cognitive beliefs since I understand the connection that the Catholic Catechism has so clearly described) but can not, now, connect the two parts of myself: the emotional and the cognitive.

When I am outside the Church, in my everyday life, I can’t find myself to believe that God exists. I hold very “progressive” political viewpoints that violate Catholic doctrine. The exception comes only when I’m with my fiancee and feeling great love for her. At those times I feel God is working His hand in my relationship and guiding me to a holy life. That is the only exception. And, another strange observation: when I’m in Church I feel this same feeling. I’m actually turned on, sexually, about all things Catholic.

I’m very, very confused about it all and don’t know what to do with this.

I think you need to give yourself more time to absorb and deal with these unfamiliar emotions. Only the most favored saints feel God’s love working in them at every moment they are awake and aware of it; the rest of us make due with the faith we have; we know and believe God is there is at all times, but do not get to experience it. That is what faith is and it’s ok. I see you have been reading all about the Catholic Church, now maybe it is time to read about the people of the Catholic Church. You might find some insight in books about Mother Theresa, St. John of the Cross and St. Augustine. Hang in there, you are on the right path!

 

[Della]

Hello HarveyL. Welcome to CAF and to the process of discerning your faith.

I came from a very different background from yours in my journey into the Church, but I think we have some things in common, just the same.

I too spent a long time in “limbo.” I too believed in the basic teachings of the Church (there were no major social issues in my day–common sense prevented much of the “virtue-shaming” that is so endemic now). Rather, I grappled with the main issues, such as Mary, the Eucharist (although having been brought up Episcopalian and then devolved into a Pentecostalist it wasn’t a huge leap of faith for me to accept the Real Presence due to my early teaching in the ECUSA).

For a long time I was in a similar place you are now–one person by day and another by night, so to speak. Don’t be afraid/don’t worry–it’s part of the process. You can’t (unless you have a sudden "Road to Damascus experience) expect your mind to suddenly accept what you rejected since childhood. Give it time. Follow your priest’s instructions, go through RCIA, even if you don’t enter the Church at the end of the sessions (there’s always another time for that, if you decide Catholicism is for you). And while you really don’t have several decades to decide so many important things–becoming Catholic and getting married–still, you are in God’s hands. As long as you wish to be there, that’s where you’ll be.

Let the Holy Spirit guide your heart. When you come to understand that you love God, even if you think you don’t believe in him, everything will fall into place. For, as Christians, we live, not for ourselves, but for God and for others, striving to become holy as he is holy and doing good in charity as he did for us. You have my prayers.

 

[Mintaka]

A lot of people have different sides of their thoughts and personalities, and they tend to come out around compatible people. (Which is one of the reasons why people are traditionally discouraged from hanging out with minor criminals or other “bad company,” unless they have a strong will and a good reason to do it.)

So basically you’re experiencing a lot of cognitive dissonance, because your secular associates and the side of your personality that they bring out is different from the side of you that you show to your fiancee. You also have established certain habits of thinking and feeling, and habits are always hard to break.

I give you kudos for not letting this uncomfortable situation keep you from pursuing love and truth!

 

[franklinstower]

Hello HarveyL. Welcome to CAF and to the process of discerning your faith.

I came from a very different background from yours in my journey into the Church, but I think we have some things in common, just the same.

I too spent a long time in “limbo.” I too believed in the basic teachings of the Church (there were no major social issues in my day–common sense prevented much of the “virtue-shaming” that is so endemic now). Rather, I grappled with the main issues, such as Mary, the Eucharist (although having been brought up Episcopalian and then devolved into a Pentecostalist it wasn’t a huge leap of faith for me to accept the Real Presence due to my early teaching in the ECUSA).

For a long time I was in a similar place you are now–one person by day and another by night, so to speak. Don’t be afraid/don’t worry–it’s part of the process. You can’t (unless you have a sudden "Road to Damascus experience) expect your mind to suddenly accept what you rejected since childhood. Give it time. Follow your priest’s instructions, go through RCIA, even if you don’t enter the Church at the end of the sessions (there’s always another time for that, if you decide Catholicism is for you). And while you really don’t have several decades to decide so many important things–becoming Catholic and getting married–still, you are in God’s hands. As long as you wish to be there, that’s where you’ll be.

Let the Holy Spirit guide your heart. When you come to understand that you love God, even if you think you don’t believe in him, everything will fall into place. For, as Christians, we live, not for ourselves, but for God and for others, striving to become holy as he is holy and doing good in charity as he did for us. You have my prayers.

Basically this. I think you believe when you are in church and with your wife because of the presence of Christ dwelling within you at those times. You are riding piggy back on the consciousness there and the energy of God that is there. It is basically Christ getting a foothold in you and in your mind. If you have been an atheist and thought like an atheist for as long as you have I would guess it could take a long time to not revert back to that old way of thinking sometimes even if it is just solely out of habit.

Thought patterns and beliefs and emotional states can all get stored together so that it seems quite normal to me that you could revert to the old way of thinking and feeling. I would suggest three things

1- While you are believing in God either in Church or with your wife sincerely give God permission to heal your mind and change your way of thinking over time. Just say to God I give my permission to you to change my thinking even when I am not believing in you. Doing this it will come over time.

2- When you are in the atheist mindset be observant of the state of your will. Just be able to say honestly that I don’t choose to believe this in my will and I am still open to God to change this way of thinking. God needs only a receptive will even while you are in a position of non belief. The question is not do you believe all the time. The question is am I willing to believe all the time?

3- become a person who spends time in prayer regularly. Do not always be asking for specific things. God is way bigger and has way more to offer than our wish list no matter how valid that wishlist might be. The main purpose of prayer is to draw closer to God and come to know God. Make time for that daily. You might read a couple of bools that can put the prayer life into a certain perspective. The Cloud of Unknowing is a good book and so is "The Interior Castle’. by Teresa of Avila.

 

[eddie_too]

harveyl,

i am a life long and practicing roman catholic. i believe in side of church and outside of church. still, every day in my prayers i pray the prayer of the synagogue official who asked Jesus to cure his daughter (if i remember correctly). his prayer was Lord i believe, help my unbelief.

there are no guarantees because praying is not magic. God’s answers to our prayers involve His divine will that all His creatures freely choose to join with Him for eternity. i pray the above prayer, because my prayers and thoughts are not always free of doubt. although the doubt might be very small and very fleeting, i cannot ignore it and thus i pray the above prayer. i never want the doubt to grow. i always want it to diminish and by the grace of God disappear never to return.

so, i urge you to pray, pray, pray, every day as often as possible. combine that with charitable giving, with sacrificial self-denial and practicing the spiritual and corporal works of mercy, and God will take care of the rest.

my best friend ever was a jewish woman who passed away two years ago. we never married because she was divorced and never became willing to work with the RCC to make marriage possible. at the same time, she was growing in grace and understanding right up to the moment of her death. i know what it was that most attracted me to her. she had a loving heart and constantly put the needs of others, especially the most needy, utmost in her life.

finally, i will keep you in my prayers that your faith continues to grow.

by the way, my age is 64, so our lives in america have encompassed many of the same historical moments and trends. in my opinion, that alone makes surrendering totally to our Lord a challenge unique to this era in history.

 

[Horton]

You have been given some good advice here. I am also a convert but was a Christian prior to my conversion. And while I never held the view that God didn’t exist or that Christianity was a sham, I certainly lived my life as though that were true. I had to learn how to be a Catholic Christian.

My point is it takes some time and practice to live as a Catholic. Take your spirituality with you throughout the day. Put a rosary in your pocket, every time you reach in there you’ll feel it and be reminded. Listen to Christian music in your car. If able place a small sacramental of some sort near your work space.

Develop a daily prayer life. The possibilities for this are endless. I use the Christian Prayer book to pray some of the hours daily. But I didn’t start that until I after I had been Catholic for bit. You can pray anything, just talk to God.

It took effort to develop the habits many Catholics have. In coming to terms with Church teachings I had to spend some time with scripture,in prayer, and speaking to others who were knowledgeable in the areas I struggled with.

 

[Louman127]

Ahhh Harvey you are very wisdom filled. This is how my mind works. I am however 28. What is happening is yes you do feel like you are two people. What is happening is you are submitting to the graces being given by God. How? Because you are living the Catholic life as best you can and submitting to the Divine will and are constantly searching for God. Seek and you will find, ask and you will receive as Scripture says.

This area of your mind where you feel you are two people. What you are subconsciously doing is believing in what God has naturally wired within you (belief in God Himself and the law He has woven in your heart) but also you have questions and cannot fully understand. At this point what you are doing is your mind is creating an objective “work area”. This allows you to still embrace the faith but also still addresses the cognitive (shallow, face value, human only logic lacking Divine knowledge) issues that conflict with the faith. But the graces you are getting from prayer and submission will always attack any doubt from a higher intellectual level. That is how you said you are able to figure out the propper answer to things based on the faith even though they conflict with your worldly indoctrination.

You are doing what is required for conversion with a very sound and objective mind. Keep in mind though you are also probably being given many many graces and many “happy feeling” graces in order for you to come to the faith fully. The devil is being restrained from attacking you full force but keep in mind this will not always be the case when your “training wheels” come off so to speak.

I can certainly help. Private message me any time my friend.

 

[HarveyL]

Some of the answers here have been very illuminating and helpful. Thank you all for responding.

I’ve been very busy today making my home fit for a woman’s consumption, so to speak, as my fiancee is selling her house and, unless we both decide to move into a new one (“to start fresh”, as she says), I have to make my home less caveman and more civilized, not to mention getting rid of a truck that’s been in my driveway for years (and filled with inventory that I have to process). Either way, even if I have to sell, the house has to look salable, so I’m busy however it comes. So, now I can answer.

Some of the sentences that I want to remember are:​

While you are believing in God either in Church or with your wife*sincerely give God permission to heal your mind and change your way of thinking over time. Just say to God I give my permission to you to change my thinking even when I am not believing in you. Doing this it will come over time.

Just be able to say honestly that I don’t choose to believe this in my will and I am still open to God to change this way of thinking. God needs only a receptive will even while you are in a position of non belief. The question is not do you believe all the time. The question is am I willing to believe all the time?

…you’re experiencing a lot of cognitive dissonance, because your secular associates and the side of your personality that they bring out is different from the side of you that you show to your fiancee. You also have established certain habits of thinking and feeling, and habits are always hard to break.

…you are now–one person by day and another by night, so to speak. Don’t be afraid/don’t worry–it’s part of the process. You can’t (unless you have a sudden "Road to Damascus experience) expect your mind to suddenly accept what you rejected since childhood. Give it time. Follow your priest’s instructions, go through RCIA, even if you don’t enter the Church at the end of the sessions (there’s always another time for that, if you decide Catholicism is for you). And while you really don’t have several decades to decide so many important things–becoming Catholic and getting married–still, you are in God’s hands. As long as you wish to be there, that’s where you’ll be.

I think you need to give yourself more time to absorb and deal with these unfamiliar emotions.

Then you say that the sympathy is emotional when you are in the vicinity of the church and nil when you are away from it. Well, it’s natural that it’s less when you’re not there.​

I realize that everyone here has tried to shed light on this subject and I’ve gotten a little bit from all but the above thoughts I identified most with. A couple of thoughts that were expressed I have trouble with but it doesn’t matter since I prefer to take as much positive as I can from all of the responses. Funny though how I forgot what should have been obvious: that these kinds of transitions usually take their time to develop.

I hope that this thread hasn’t run its way out as I look forward to anything that may help me on this subject. As for me being “turned on” by being Catholic, I think maybe that’s just a manifestation of my emotions in some way.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Hi Harvey,

I don’t think that what you’re experience is that uncommon. There are Catholics who doubt that God exists during the Mass, so it’s not surprising that an atheist inquiring into the faith would have his own doubts.

I think, from my perspective as another non-Catholic, what you’re experiencing in the Mass is the coming together of heaven and earth, and you can really feel God’s presence. But once you step into the world, you’re surrounded by the world, so it’s normal that you would revert back to your “worldly” state. I think that happens to everyone.

I think you’re going through an evolution of belief. Of course I’d venture to say, as a Christian, that you’re being gently drawn by the Holy Spirit, which conflicts with what you believe. You should just take every day individually as it comes. Prepare for your wedding, study the scriptures, pray directly to God. God listens even to the skeptics (don’t forget, “Israel” means “struggling with God”). Don’t assume you have to make an immediate jump. You’ll have a lot explained to you in RCIA, and you can discuss deeper philosophical issues with a priest or with your fiancée. I bet she’s just thrilled that you’re seriously inquiring.

May the Lord guide you on your journey.

 

[Entwhistler]

As for arguments for God, you might want to look into Saint Thomas Aquinas’ arguments especially his argument from motion. However, be warned, it is not for the faint of heart. It is quite an involved argument which is why many people who have only glanced at it or only know the bare bones misunderstand it. Of course, there are a few Thomists in the philosophy section of the forum who can clarify things if you have questions.

Best of luck!

 

[lax16]

I’ve been an atheist most of my life (I’m 65 and an atheist since the age of 7). I’ve fallen in love with a practicing Catholic woman who, upon her invitation, I accompany to Mass every week and have been doing so for many months now. Note, too, that in this post when I use the term “cognitive” I mean when I’m thinking without emotion, sort of like Mr. Spock, devoid of as much emotional connection as my mind can sum up.

Hi HarveyL! You seem like a very interesting guy and remind me a lot of my own husband. He is Jewish, however identifies as agnostic, and we have been together for 26 years.

I have always had a deep level of curiosity about many things and, since going to Mass, I’ve asked many questions and read many things about the meaning of the Mass and what it means to be Catholic. My learning has drawn me closer both to my, now, fiancee and to Catholicism.** I’m very impressed with the incredible amount of thought behind the Catechism, the beauty of the Church, and the rituals, not to mention the morality and goodness of Catholic thinking and practice, as I’ve seen it so far. **I even decided to, what I thought to be temporary, give up atheistic viewpoints for Lent (and discussed this in a separate thread).

I’m really impressed that you decided to give up atheistic viewpoints for Lent. That requires a lot of thought, patience and dedication.

I would like to comment on your points in bold. Please know that I am talking to you like I would talk to my Jewish friends and in-laws so I am going to be straightforward.

I have found that every Jewish person I have been close to, since I was in the fifth grade, was drawn to the very things you described here. They love the order, “clean living” (my husbands words), optimism, and love being the recipients of Christian charity.

However, they do not want to change. They (remember I am referring to my friends and family, not trying to generalize here) enjoy gossiping, criticizing, indulging etc and only claim to be Jewish when it comes to claiming discrimination. I know this sounds mean, but I am trying to say something so bear with me. 1) If they are drawn to the beauty of it all, what does that tell us? 2) If they don’t want to change, what does that tell us?

1. God is all good. Most Jewish people seek out the light and goodness they see in others and are quick to recognize it and give it praise. One of my childhood friends, who is Jewish, has always lived a very worldly lifestyle. About a year and a half ago she said to me that she just loves Pope Francis and for the first time ever would consider becoming a Catholic. She then continued on with her normal conversation which included discussing living with her boyfriend who was still married to his first wife.
2. I believe that many Jewish people feel obligated to carry on with this worldly existence because to them, that is what being Jewish means. They have to be pro-choice (even if they recoil at the thought of abortion), pro-gay marriage (even if they think it is illogical)…it is a badge of honor to uphold these liberal ideas. There is tremendous pressure to be considered modern and not “old world”. Many feel this type of thinking makes them more intelligent than conservatives.

My question is why? You may think your ideas are agnostic. I think they are typical of many non-Orthodox Jews. I think you need to separate the two and recognize how closely you are connected to the thinking of many modern Jews and see if this is part of your hesitation, maybe even a strong distaste for things that might be considered conservative.

 

[StGerardMajella]

But, when I’m in my ordinary world, outside the Church, I revert to my atheistic beliefs which are now 100% in my cognitive mind and 50% in my emotional self (it used to be 100% at all times, on both levels) though for Lent I didn’t reveal this and, instead, decided to only have positive thoughts and actions regarding belief and Catholicism.

Harvey - I think this is completely normal. In fact, I think it is pretty normal fare for most Catholics when we step out into the world away from the quiet peace and charity of being in a holy place. The world, by comparison, can seem like a delusional, crazy, even out of control environment.

My history is Jewish but I don’t practice and haven’t done so since I was 13 when I was forced/strongly-encouraged to have a Bar Mitzvah. My fiancee would be overjoyed if I converted to Catholic, but she wants it to be my decision.

Inter-faith marriages are tough. I would really recommend that you do some pre-marriage counseling with a traditional priest and/or a traditional rabbi. There can be a lot of challenges with inter-faith marriages that should be addressed before walking down the aisle.

By entering the Church, you are also turning your back on your Jewish roots, which can have potentially negative consequences in the future. All of this needs to be carefully weighed. Your Jewish friends and family may have a different perspective on this conversion to the Church.

Yet, emotionally, now, I feel a MAJOR draw to Catholicism.

Perfectly normal. Yes, logically, many Catholics can struggle to make rational sense about quite a few theological matters, and still feel emotionally attached to the Church.

 

[HarveyL]

Hi lax16:

You wrote:
I have found that every Jewish person I have been close to, since I was in the fifth grade, was drawn to the very things you described here. They love the order, “clean living” (my husbands words), optimism, and love being the recipients of Christian charity.​

I’m not sure that the characteristics you depict are shared by all Jewish people but, rather, they are shared by everyone, sometimes with each person more or less, and this is true even with one person who may change their preferences in time and space.​

You wrote:
However, they do not want to change. They (remember I am referring to my friends and family, not trying to generalize here) enjoy gossiping, criticizing, indulging etc and only claim to be Jewish when it comes to claiming discrimination. I know this sounds mean, but I am trying to say something so bear with me. 1) If they are drawn to the beauty of it all, what does that tell us? 2) If they don’t want to change, what does that tell us?​

Again, all the characteristics you depict are very human and are not solely owned by any one group, however one may define the group. This applies to numbers 1) and 2) below also.​

1. God is all good. Most Jewish people seek out the light and goodness they see in others and are quick to recognize it and give it praise. One of my childhood friends, who is Jewish, has always lived a very worldly lifestyle. About a year and a half ago she said to me that she just loves Pope Francis and for the first time ever would consider becoming a Catholic. She then continued on with her normal conversation which included discussing living with her boyfriend who was still married to his first wife.
2. I believe that many Jewish people feel obligated to carry on with this worldly existence because to them, that is what being Jewish means. They have to be pro-choice (even if they recoil at the thought of abortion), pro-gay marriage (even if they think it is illogical)…it is a badge of honor to uphold these liberal ideas. There is tremendous pressure to be considered modern and not “old world”. Many feel this type of thinking makes them more intelligent than conservatives.

My question is why? You may think your ideas are agnostic. I think they are typical of many non-Orthodox Jews. I think you need to separate the two and recognize how closely you are connected to the thinking of many modern Jews and see if this is part of your hesitation, maybe even a strong distaste for things that might be considered conservative.​

I find it difficult to comprehend that, if you’ve live long enough as an adult, that you have only found that Jewish people are predominantly any thing, whatever the “thing” is. The aspect of stereotypes that is attractive is that there’s some truth to them. But, like all stereotypes, they are often based on over generalization, to the point where their foundation is more based on one’s proclivity to believe them than on statistical fact.

I’m quite sure that you’ll find gossipers,progressives, liberals, people that think they’re more intelligent than another group, etc. among all ethnicities, cultures, countries and religious persuasions, or virtually however you deliniate a particular group. As such, the question you ask: Why are Jews a certain way, is not legitimate.

Now, if you ask why someone may gossip, or be politically progressive, well, there are copious answers to that question. But, in general, people are the way they are because their life has taught them that that way of looking at things works the best.

Note, too, that I clearly indicated that I was never a practicing Jew and, for that matter, I really don’t identify as such. My friends (including my fiancee) have always spanned a wide gamut of religions, races, geographical origins, opinions, cultural anchor points, and more. Maybe that’s why I haven’t been very adept at stereotyping. My fault I suppose.

 

[HarveyL]

Well, I’m not so sure that this will be an inter-faith marriage as I want to convert to Catholicism, for many reasons among which addresses your concern. And though I’m somewhat comforted by the idea that what I’m going through is “completely normal”, I wonder if it has to be that way always. I’ve read many examples of people who “keep the holy spirit” in them through thick and thin, stronger at times, less strong at other times, but there nonetheless. In fact, some may consider that religions of all stripes are there precisely to address the “out of control environment” that we may experience.
As far as Pre-Cana, this is not only something I look forward to but something that is required if we are to marry in the Catholic Church, which is our intention.

The friends I have tend to be VERY open minded and find this a bit amusing (recall, I’ve been a somewhat outspoken atheist for nearly 60 years, so the joke’s on me!). As for my family, only my sister would be outraged, but (basically) she’s a bit of a nut-job (sad to say) and will probably never know since I try to avoid her as best as I can (as do her own adult children) and I’m quite immune to her prognostications. My 86 year old mother (my father died last year) knows and is OK with it, being an atheist herself, as she loves her children and couldn’t care less about religious affiliations but, rather, cares more about anyone attempting to infringe her legal rights. My other family members are scattered wide and I hardly ever get to see them. My fiancee’s family are very tight and, for those who know, are all overjoyed at the prospect.

However, since Judaism is considered the elder brother to Catholicism I really wouldn’t be “turning my back on [my] Jewish roots”. But, even if (somehow) I was, it wouldn’t ever be the way I see things (in general) as I feel that we are all connected in many, many ways and our roots are that of the Earth and our universe (and, what I hope to fully comprehend, God for that matter). As such, I feel there’s a real continuum connecting all life and that our real roots exist in that connection.

Harvey - I think this is completely normal. In fact, I think it is pretty normal fare for most Catholics when we step out into the world away from the quiet peace and charity of being in a holy place. The world, by comparison, can seem like a delusional, crazy, even out of control environment.

Inter-faith marriages are tough. I would really recommend that you do some pre-marriage counseling with a traditional priest and/or a traditional rabbi. There can be a lot of challenges with inter-faith marriages that should be addressed before walking down the aisle.

By entering the Church, you are also turning your back on your Jewish roots, which can have potentially negative consequences in the future. All of this needs to be carefully weighed. Your Jewish friends and family may have a different perspective on this conversion to the Church.

Perfectly normal. Yes, logically, many Catholics can struggle to make rational sense about quite a few theological matters, and still feel emotionally attached to the Church.