Weird Neocatecumenal way liturgy

[oat_soda]

I would like to know what people think of how the liturgy is celebrated according to the neocatecumenal way.

Here are some observations:

1. The mass is celebrated in a room (not a church) around a table is set up in the middle to serve as a altar. This table is ornamented with flowers and white table cloth to resemble a “banquet table”.
2. The music is played on a guitar and is like Spanish folk music.
3. There is time after the gospel reading when everyone “echoes” or reflects what the gospel means to them.
4. Kneeling is not allowed at any time.
5. Communion is only given in the hand while sitting on a chair and is consumed once everyone has received from the priest. The size of bread is rather large and it doesn’t all fit into your mouth.
6. Everyone receives the precious blood.
7. After mass is ended, everyone joins hands and does a simple dance around the “banquet table” while singing some Jewish song.

Seems 1960’s but it is approved by Rome.

 

[Church_Militant]

No thanks…I won’t go. I’m pretty open-minded, but this would be too weird. Besides …I will always kneel before my Lord.

 

[katherine2]

This is intended for small, particular groups, not a parish Sunday Mass.

The mass is celebrated in a room (not a church) around a table is set up in the middle to serve as a altar. This table is ornamented with flowers and white table cloth to resemble a “banquet table”.

A white linen cloth is required by the rubrics. if you don’t have this in you rparish, you are not following rules. The rest seem permissable allowances for a smalll group Mass.

The music is played on a guitar and is like Spanish folk music.

The Spaniards are nice folk.

1. There is time after the gospel reading when everyone “echoes” or reflects what the gospel means to them.

In small groups, yes. Neo-catecumenal. Even an long term Catholic like me on occassion wants to raise my hand during the sermon and ask some questions (I resist the temptation).

Kneeling is not allowed at any time.

In a samll room, that seems sane.

Everyone receives the precious blood.

good.

1. After mass is ended, everyone joins hands and does a simple dance around the “banquet table” while singing some Jewish song.

Seems 1960’s but it is approved by Rome.

 

[Detroit_Sue]

That sounds like something I saw on EWTN from a “Call to Action” conference. No thank you.

 

[shannon_e]

oat soda:

I would like to know what people think of how the liturgy is celebrated according to the neocatecumenal way.

Here are some observations:

1. The mass is celebrated in a room (not a church) around a table is set up in the middle to serve as a altar. This table is ornamented with flowers and white table cloth to resemble a “banquet table”.
2. The music is played on a guitar and is like Spanish folk music.
3. There is time after the gospel reading when everyone “echoes” or reflects what the gospel means to them.
4. Kneeling is not allowed at any time.
5. Communion is only given in the hand while sitting on a chair and is consumed once everyone has received from the priest. The size of bread is rather large and it doesn’t all fit into your mouth.
6. Everyone receives the precious blood.
7. After mass is ended, everyone joins hands and does a simple dance around the “banquet table” while singing some Jewish song.

Seems 1960’s but it is approved by Rome.

The Neo-Catechumenal Way:
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/laity/documents/rc_pc_laity_doc_20020701_cammino-neocatecumenale_en.html

camminoneocatecumenale.it/en/index.asp

My only regret is I will prolly run out of time before I can finish this post… Bear with me, I’m gonna have to keep it minimal…

The “mission” of the Way is to spark a renewal of faith in the laity. To spark a renewal of our Baptismal vows.
I wish I could attend the Mass every week , but I always make it to the weekly Liturgy of the Word.

Everything is taken from Scripture.

1. Similar to the Passover Meal. And it’s lovely, and reverent.
2. the music is played by whoever in the group can. The music is learned by listening and repetition. It could be that a particular group learned a version that was learned from a Spanish singer… The Way is international, after all.
3. It’s wonderful. We know that the Spirit can talk to others thru us and viseversa. Then the Priest or in my case (we’re so blessed) the Bishop gives the Homily.
4. It would be very difficult for the elderly members to kneel in the room. Note: All the members kneel when they attend Mass in the Church. Saying that kneeling isn’t allowed is not correct.
5. Yes. It’s very nice to wait until all have been fed, and then all eat together. It’s very moving. Hahaha. If the bread maker (made strictly validly) doesn’t “perforate” the bread well, then it’s hard for the Bishop to split up… I see people carefully breaking theirs in half, and always being careful to not lose a crumb.
6. Unless you cross your arms across your chest.
7. My group tried dancing once, and it wasn’t pretty. hahaha
   hahahaha. The songs are all from Scripture, but again, they are passed thru listening and repeating-- although I think the chords are written down for the guitars. The music ministry of each group can write down the words for themselves, but we are encouraged to trust in the Holy Spirit and to learn from each other. It really is amazing how quickly we catch on and remember the songs when you aren’t relying on having the words in front of you…
8. As a convert, it has really been a gracious and irreplaceable part of learning how to live my faith daily. The local group here (and there’s a sister group starting up near-by :clapping: )
   is a wonderful mix of Religious, Consecrated singles, Married folk, singles, widowed, and of course the Priests and/or Bishops who of course must attend the Mass, and who attend the Liturgy of the Word as often as they can…
9. give it another try :yup:

Peace, Prayers, and Blessings.

 

[Timidity]

If the intent of the question was “Do you think it would be good for you” then I say that I’d have to experience it myself to know for sure whether it would be a good fit for me or not. It certainly seems a whole lote more “last supper-esque”, and from that standpoint it has a certain appeal, but I’d have to see if I would be able to maintain a personal sense of reverence and awe.

If, on the other hand, the intent of the question was “Is this type of service objectively good or bad” then I would have to say that if it is indeed approved by the Magisterium, than it must be good.

 

[oat_soda]

If, on the other hand, the intent of the question was “Is this type of service objectively good or bad” then I would have to say that if it is indeed approved by the Magisterium, than it must be good.

from what i read, the liturgy was fabricated by Monsignor Farnés Scherer camminoneocatecumenale.it/en/notastorica.htm . i question his motives as reflecting more of the “spirit” of vatican II and not the documents or the liturgical movement of Pius X and XII.

During one of the catechesis sessions the priest said that the sacrifice of the mass was over emphasized and the resurrection/celebration banquet aspect was demised when Constantine legalized christianity. He said that the solemn and sacrificial aspect a result pagan influence rather then the liturgy practiced by the apostles. Obviously, the Passover meal was sacrificial in nature so I didn’t understand where he was coming from.

Unfortunately, alongside these lights,* there are also shadows*

. In some places the practice of Eucharistic adoration has been almost completely abandoned…Stripped of its sacrificial meaning, it is celebrated as if it were simply a fraternal banquet. adoremus.org/EcclesiaDeEucharistia.html#anchor555186 I think the mass was based on a false assumption of how the mass was celebrated during the early stages of Christianity. It also rejects any organic growth of doctrine or liturgy. The liturgy is stripped down so it is entirely didactic and the “signs” of the bread and wine become more important then the mystery and sacrifice. it is a liturgy primarily for the community and not for worshiping God. Cardinal Ratzinger also rejects the this idea, especially the pratice of the priest facing the people as an reenactment of the last supper.

 

[shannon_e]

oat soda:

from what i read, the liturgy was fabricated by Monsignor Farnés Scherer camminoneocatecumenale.it/en/notastorica.htm . i question his motives as reflecting more of the “spirit” of vatican II and not the documents or the liturgical movement of Pius X and XII.

“At the beginning of the Sixties, Kiko Argüello, a Spanish painter, after experiencing an existential crisis, discovered in the suffering of the innocent people the awesome mystery of the crucified Christ which is present in the ‘least’ of the earth. Such a discovery made him abandon all things and following the footsteps of Charles de Foucauld, he went to live among the poor people of the slums of ‘ Palomeras Altas’ in the outskirts of Madrid. It was there that another Spanish woman, Carmen Hernàndez, a graduate in Chemistry, came to know Kiko Argüello. She had come in touch with the renewal of the Second Vatican Council thanks to Monsignor Farnés Scherer ( a liturgist) and had been called by her bishop while trying to gather together a group of people with a view to evangelise the miners of Oruro ( Bolivia).”

So from this opening paragraph-- you jumped to the conclusion that Arguello and Hernandez’s next 3-4 decades were spent furthering some weird agenda??? That’s seems to be a really far stretch.

Obviously, the Passover meal was sacrificial in nature so I didn’t understand where he was coming from.

I’m not sure I understand; who said this and in what context?
Did you talk to the Catechesis team? Did you ask for clarification of any questions you had? Are you saying that you saw abuses at the Mass?

It also rejects any organic growth of doctrine or liturgy. The liturgy is stripped down so it is entirely didactic and the “signs” of the bread and wine become more important then the mystery and sacrifice. it is a liturgy primarily for the community and not for worshiping God.

That last part especially is blasphemous!!!
Are you saying that this is what you saw or what you deduce?
I hope I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying.

I have certainly not seen that, although I guess it would be naive of me to think that out of 16,000+ communities world-wide that no community would ever experience abuses. How sad, though.

This is a COMMUNIQUÉ FROM THE PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR THE LAITY (dated 6/28/02)

camminoneocatecumenale.it/en/statuti3.htm

The Neo-Catechumenal Way does not support or endorse any liturgical abuses, nor does it support or endorse blasphemy.

Peace.

 

[oat_soda]

So from this opening paragraph-- you jumped to the conclusion that Arguello and Hernandez’s next 3-4 decades were spent furthering some weird agenda??? That’s seems to be a really far stretch.

the liturgy reflects the misconceptions of radical antiquarian liturgist of the 60’s.

…But it is neither wise nor laudable to reduce everything to antiquity by every possible device. Thus, to cite some instances, one would be straying from the straight path were he to wish the altar restored to its primitive tableform; were he to want black excluded as a color for the liturgical vestments; were he to forbid the use of sacred images and statues in Churches; were he to order the crucifix so designed that the divine Redeemer’s body shows no trace of His cruel sufferings; and lastly were he to disdain and reject polyphonic music or singing in parts, even where it conforms to regulations issued by the Holy See vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_20111947_mediator-dei_en.html

Pius XII rejects the idea of table masses. further, why is the music exclusively vernacular folk music when even VII called for gregorian chant to have pride of place.

The Neo-Catechumenal Way does not support or endorse any liturgical abuses,

i’m not calling it an abuse because the church has permitted it. what i question is the pastoral prudence of the way the liturgy is celebrated. look at what Cardinal Ratzinger has to say about mass facing the people

The turning of the priest toward the people has turned the community into a self-enclosed circle. In its outward form, it no longer opens out on what lies ahead and above, but is locked into itself. The common turning toward the East was not a “celebration toward the wall”; it did not mean that the priest “had his back to the people”: the priest himself was not regarded as so important. adoremus.org/0500-Ratzinger.html

 

[shannon_e]

What Mass do you usually attend?

Peace.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Agreed, the Magisterium cannot approve anything that is going to be bad, but that does not mean that everything Holy Mother Church approves is ideal. The liturgy used by the Neo-Catechumenal way seems to be following the same misguided zeal for all things ancient that is responsible for some of the less than desirable elements of the Pauline Missal as well. Why misguided? Because the liturgy is meant to grow organically along with the community as that community’s needs change. Cultural forces develop, placing new pressures on the Church and creating new sensibilities. The Church’s understanding of revelation deepens with time, resulting in “new” aspects being more strongly emphasized as they enter more strongly into our understanding. So I think it makes little sense to try to meet the needs of the 21st century Church with the liturgy of the 2nd century Church. Organic growth also means that change, when it comes, comes slowly, in order to avoid great ruptures and growing pains. 400 years elapsed between the promulgation of Pius’ missal in 1570 and Paul’s in 1970. Before Pius it had also been quite a while since the last major renovation. The Church has traditionally been careful not to throw out the baby with the bathwater, yet its deliberate change has allowed “ancient” or “traditional” elements to fall by the wayside for various reasons. It’s innovations are also normally after long consideration in order to respond to the growing Church.

For instance, kneeling during the consecration was instituted long ago as the doctrine of the Real Presence began to come under fire. It was meant to counteract any doubt as to the Faith of the Church regarding the Eucharist. Yet now, at a time when the Real Presence is believed by a purported minority of Catholics, bishops give permission to build entire churches without kneelers and everyone is trying to get back to the “old ways” before we showed that sort of reverence, a reverence meant to shore up failing belief. Kneeling was instituted for a reason, yet the liturgists take their time warp past the reason and just plop down the pre-change liturgy in a mess of problems it was altered to avoid. I’m sure the ancient liturgy was rich and beautiful, and probably still would be (I doubt the Neo-Catechumenal way is close enough to be equated with the real thing), but I doubt it is the most “pastoral” liturgy available to the Church.

 

[shannon_e]

Andreas Hofer:

The liturgy used by the Neo-Catechumenal way seems to be following the same misguided zeal for all things ancient that is responsible for some of the less than desirable elements of the Pauline Missal as well.

Hi Andreas,

How many times have you attended a Mass of the Neo-Catechumenal Way?

Are the Masses you’ve attended celebrated by one of your parish Priests, or by (one of) your Bishop(s)?

Peace.

 

[oat_soda]

I’m sure the ancient liturgy was rich and beautiful, and probably still would be (I doubt the Neo-Catechumenal way is close enough to be equated with the real thing), but I doubt it is the most “pastoral” liturgy available to the Church. i agree with everything you said. i find it hard to believe that this liturgy is close to the ancient one because we have very little evidence on how it was practiced. the earliest nearly complete documents date from 6th or 7th century in the west.

klaus gamber and ratzinger also document how the most ancient orientation of the priest was always towards the east with the congregation. even at the last supper they didn’t face each other as they all faced the same way. this is why all the eastern churches face the altar. i think it may be detrimental because the focus is on the community and not on God and the sacrifice at the altar. the priest who gave us our catechesis told us that the mass is not primarily a sacrifice, which is not what the pope said.

What Mass do you usually attend?

the regular Pauline mass (novus ordo) but i prefer the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

shannon e:

Hi Andreas,

How many times have you attended a Mass of the Neo-Catechumenal Way?

Are the Masses you’ve attended celebrated by one of your parish Priests, or by (one of) your Bishop(s)?

Peace.

I’ve never attended a Mass that was intended to follow the rubrics of the movement, but I have attended plenty of daily Masses celebrated by student chaplains that incorporated most if not all of the elements described above. So the commentary was only on the practices as I have seen them used; I don’t have experience with them all lawfully combined, just unlawfully instituted five or six at a time.

Since I’m a student at Notre Dame I normally attend Masses said by priests of the Congregation of Holy Cross, most often in our basilica. But if there were a licit Tridentine Mass within an hour or so from school I’d be there in a heartbeat.

 

[langiemabel]

THINGS THAT SHOULD BE EDITED!!!

1. Mass is celebrated in a room or in church. The room is usually part of the church for ex. the chapel or the basement of the church.
2. Music is played on a guitar and accompanied by many other guitar
3. Kneeling is allowed if you want to do it. They say you shouldn’t because the Eucharist is a grace and one shouldn’t kneel. But you can if you want to.
4. The bread does fit in. The bread resembles the one from the one used in the last supper and its big and depends how the priest splits.
5. Not everyone receives the blood.
6. Its not just “some Jewish song” its songs from stories from the bible all the songs that are sung are adapted from the bible.

 

[benedictgal]

This is an old thread, but, there is a lot of misinformation that needs to be cleared up.

First of all, in 2005, the Holy Father issued a directive to the Neocatechumenal Way that gave them a two-year deadline to clean up the manner in which they celebrated the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. What they were doing was against Redemptionis Sacramentum, let alone the GIRM. Their manner of distributing Holy Communion was ilicit, as was the “commentary” form of homily, which also goes against the norms and the liturgical documents of the Holy See.

The [edited] didn’t take the directive too well and considered them suggestions, rather than orders. This excerpt from the online magazine Chiesa gives the story in a nutshell:

On December 1, 2005, Cardinal Francis Arinze, prefect of the congregation for divine worship, sent them a letter, in the name of the pope, to call them back to faithful observance of the liturgical regulations. And the following January 12, Benedict XVI in person urged them to obey. But in practice, this twofold reminder fell on deaf ears almost everywhere.

On February 22, 2007, in an audience with the clergy of Rome, Benedict XVI made it clear that the new statutes would not be approved if they did not follow these instructions.

And in the end, the pressure worked. The new statutes approved last May 11 require the Neocatechumenals to celebrate the Mass following the general liturgical regulations of the Roman rite. They must receive communion standing. The homily can no longer be replaced with a variety of comments. Their Masses on Saturday evening will be “part of the Sunday liturgical service of the parish,” and will be “open to other members of the faithful as well.”

Now, they probably could receive Holy Communion kneeling, if they so choose, but, they could not receive Holy Communion in the manner to which they are accustomed.

Having walked into one such service by accident, I was repulsed by what I saw. The music was more wailing than actually singing and the priest looked exhausted. Even the priest whom I brought with me to see the celebrant asked me if this was a Catholic service. Mind you, my companion was in the beginning stages of Alzheimers, but, his circuits were still acutely aware of something bizarre going on that evening.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

This thread is closed.