Welcoming sinners without compromising morals

[vluvski]

TarAshly,
Please read the rest of my posts on this thread. The first post came out harsher than I intended.

 

[Ana]

If a couple wants thier marriage blessed by God … THIS IS A GOOD THING. The Church should honor this GRACE insofar as she is able to without compromising the Truth.

Although I cannot give you EVERYTHING (Eucharist) I can give you this … God’s blessing on your marriage. The Sacrament of marriage provides grace, perhaps with this grace you can come to a deeper spiritual life. Where is the compromise?

 

[buffalo]

Karin:

This does not say you can not live together before marriage as brother and sister.

ANd neither does this.

Aahhh, but then we have to consider scandal:

2326 Scandal is a grave offense when by deed or omission it deliberately leads others to sin gravely.

Respect for the souls of others: scandal

[2284](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2284.htm’) Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.

[2285](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2285.htm’) Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized. It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."86 Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others. Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep’s clothing.87

[2286](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2286.htm’) Scandal can be provoked by laws or institutions, by fashion or opinion.

Therefore, they are guilty of scandal who establish laws or social structures leading to the decline of morals and the corruption of religious practice, or to "social conditions that, intentionally or not, make Christian conduct and obedience to the Commandments difficult and practically impossible."88 This is also true of business leaders who make rules encouraging fraud, teachers who provoke their children to anger,89 or manipulators of public opinion who turn it away from moral values.

2287 Anyone who uses the power at his disposal in such a way that it leads others to do wrong becomes guilty of scandal and responsible for the evil that he has directly or indirectly encouraged. "Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom they come!"90

 

[TarAshly]

vluvski:

I was particularly upset to learn that the only older couple was also living together, the woman having already been married once (I assume she, in RCIA, has a valid decree of nullity.), and the man a former Jesuit! :tsktsk:

Shouldn’t we expect more of someone who ought to know better, especially when there are children involved and an example is being set?

This sounds to be extremely judgmental and superior. Please re-examine your heart. surely you would not wish only those who do things the way you are fortunate enough to be able to do, to be married in the Church? what about the rest of us? I am sorry V, but i have to tell you that you are sounding a little holier than thou in this thread. I have read other posts by you and you always seem to be a kind and charitable person. but this thread seems out of character for you. I will take it just as that. I wish you all the best in your marriage but please do not assume that the rest of us are doomed because we made a mistake in the past.

TarAshly

 

[Ana]

fix:

How is one in a state of grace when one is fornicating?

One is not in a state of grace while in mortal sin. Grace is needed to be in a state of grace.

 

[TarAshly]

:clapping: Well Put Ana!

Ana:

I agree that priest’s should not MISREPRESENT the teaching of the Church. But the Church should reach out to these couples wherever they can without compromising the Truth.

Obviously a couple living in sin should not receive the Eucharist, and it should not be part of the wedding ceremony.

But the concept of of telling someone to “stop sinning” than come back to Church, is equivalent to telling someone to heal themselves before they go to the doctor.

I don’t know, maybe it’s just me, but I need the graces and Sacraments of the Church to overcome sin.

 

[Karin]

buffalo:

Aahhh, but then we have to consider scandal:

2326 Scandal is a grave offense when by deed or omission it deliberately leads others to sin gravely.

Respect for the souls of others: scandal

2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.

2285 Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized. It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."86 Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others. Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep’s clothing.87

2286 Scandal can be provoked by laws or institutions, by fashion or opinion.

Therefore, they are guilty of scandal who establish laws or social structures leading to the decline of morals and the corruption of religious practice, or to "social conditions that, intentionally or not, make Christian conduct and obedience to the Commandments difficult and practically impossible."88 This is also true of business leaders who make rules encouraging fraud, teachers who provoke their children to anger,89 or manipulators of public opinion who turn it away from moral values.

2287 Anyone who uses the power at his disposal in such a way that it leads others to do wrong becomes guilty of scandal and responsible for the evil that he has directly or indirectly encouraged. "Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom they come!"90

So what this means is that if you see a couple living together (without sex) before marriage this is going to cause a scandal…why would this cause a scandal they are NOT having sex…is it a scandal becuase you ASSUME they are having sex…then perhaps you should not ASSUME.
Also I think I might be missing even more here…how is the fact that two people live together (NO SEX) before marriage going to cause you to sin???

 

[dulcissima]

vluvski:

Paul was not talking about a pair of fornicators. Paul was talking about the discernment of celibate single life versus married life. Paul thought the world was coming to an end in his lifetime, making moot the bond between husband and wife (which only anticipates the bond we will share with God and everyone in heaven). In other words, why waste your time with a fatty scrap of cow when you’re being served filet mignon in five minutes? Please do not take scripture out of context.

I don’t think it is taken totally out of context. We are still supposed to live as if the world is coming to an end any day. People who are cohabiting are doing so because they are having a hard time controlling their passions. I think it still applies. I don’t think marriage, or any of the sacraments, are reserved only for living saints. We all need to try harder, but God is very merciful.

 

[Karin]

dulcissima:

People who are cohabiting are doing so because they are having a hard time controlling their passions.

Once again not all cohabiting people are having sex…some of us can control our “passions”

 

[buffalo]

Karin:

So what this means is that if you see a couple living together (without sex) before marriage this is going to cause a scandal…why would this cause a scandal they are NOT having sex…is it a scandal becuase you ASSUME they are having sex…then perhaps you should not ASSUME

You are right I should not assume they are not, either. The point is that the couple living together is a public statement. This attacks the virtue of chastity and don’t forget little children are watching.

 

[Karin]

buffalo:

You are right I should not assume they are not, either. The point is that the couple living together is a public statement. This attacks the virtue of chastity and don’t forget little children are watching.

How does living together (without sexual relations) attack the virtues of Chastity(abstaining from sexual relations or virtue: morality with respect to sexual relations )?
I think people need to stop worrying about their neighbors bedrooms.

 

[buffalo]

Karin:

How does living together (without sexual relations) attack the virtues of Chastity(abstaining from sexual relations or virtue: morality with respect to sexual relations )?
I

Oh come now!

 

[fix]

Ana:

One is not in a state of grace while in mortal sin. Grace is needed to be in a state of grace.

I cannot follow you.

Here is what I responded to originally:

Ana:

It was through the Sacrament of Marriage, and an ever deepening relationship with God that we received those graces. Why would you want to deny the couple the very things needed to overcome sin in their life?

I can’t speak to your personal situation, but if one gets married when when is in devoid of sanctifying grace, as those who are fornicating, one will get no grace from the sacrament of marriage until one is absolved in confession.

My point in all this is it is no service to couples to claim they should get married while living together. For one reason such arrangments are filled more with physical passions that cloud the intellect then with authentic love. That is one reason for all the decrees of nullity and why the Church forbids trial marriages.

 

[Karin]

buffalo:

Oh come now!

Where are we off too???

 

[antonius]

dulcissima:

I don’t think marriage, or any of the sacraments, are reserved only for living saints. We all need to try harder, but God is very merciful.

I certainly agree. After Jesus had called Matthew/Levi to be an apostle, Jesus came to a dinner in his home. The place was loaded with “tax collectors and sinners.” I don’t recall Jesus refusing to enter the house because of this.

When He worked the miracle at Cana, He didn’t just create pure wine out of nothingness. He began with common water, something profane, and made it sacred.

We should not tie God’s hands. We should follow His example.

 

[BillP]

vluvski:

So if a priest has reason to believe the couple is not entering the marriage freely (perhaps because they are inappropriately emotionally connected because of physical intimacy), he is still required to marry them?

Eventually, yes. As the Canon Law says he can postpone it for a time, but can’t deny it.

vluvski:

Doesn’t the couple confer the sacrament on one another anyway? .

You are absolutely right the couple does confer. Any more hairs you want to split?

The bottom line is:

Can. 843 §1. Sacred ministers cannot deny the sacraments to those who seek them at appropriate times, are properly disposed, and are not prohibited by law from receiving them.

And “properly disposed” doesn’t mean free of sin. It means they understand what it is that they are asking for.

 

[vluvski]

BillP:

And “properly disposed” doesn’t mean free of sin. It means they understand what it is that they are asking for.

I think properly disposed should require that the couple at least make an effort to be free of a particular sin or set of sins that are a total abomination of the sacrament they approach.
As an extraordinary minister of Holy Eucharist, I would have no problem passing over a person who approached me while gnawing on beef jerky. How irreverent!
It is similarly irreverent to go through the motions of a Catholic marriage while willfully engaging in fornication.

 

[Orionthehunter]

vluvski:

I think properly disposed should require that the couple at least make an effort to be free of a particular sin or set of sins that are a total abomination of the sacrament they approach.
As an extraordinary minister of Holy Eucharist, I would have no problem passing over a person who approached me while gnawing on beef jerky. How irreverent!
It is similarly irreverent to go through the motions of a Catholic marriage while willfully engaging in fornication.

Please talk to your Priest about denying Communion. I think this an exclusive perogative of a Priest and is to be accompanied by pastoral direction/correction by a Priest.

 

[vluvski]

Orionthehunter:

Please talk to your Priest about denying Communion. I think this an exclusive perogative of a Priest and is to be accompanied by pastoral direction/correction by a Priest.

Thanks for the guidance. In that case, I would ask the person to go to the priest’s line because I am not comfortable administering Communion to them.
Thankfully, I’ll probably never see this since I rarely distribute communion anyway. I’d rather leave it to priests and men, and focus on using my more obvious gifts at Mass.

 

[Orionthehunter]

vluvski:

Thanks for the guidance. In that case, I would ask the person to go to the priest’s line because I am not comfortable administering Communion to them.
Thankfully, I’ll probably never see this since I rarely distribute communion anyway. I’d rather leave it to priests and men, and focus on using my more obvious gifts at Mass.

I think you are to give it to them and alert the Priest as you are not supposed to create a commotion and sending them to the other line might do so. So as always, the best advice on just about everything is to talk to your Pastor. God Bless you as you concentrate on your more obvious gifts whatever they are!