Well I guess the Rumors are True(Traditional Mass Back)

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Thanks everyone – Uxor in particular (a great point!) – for your wonderful responses. You’ve been very helpful.

Can someone point me in the direction of some reading on pro multis? Based on what little Latin/Italian/Spanish I do know, I gather it’s a debate over the use of the phrase “for all” instead of “for many” during the Consecration?

Peace,
Dante
You can read any number of articles on it via the web. If you want the most autoritative remarks regarding it, you can’t do better than the Holy See. I provided a link earlier, I’ll provide it again. It isn’t the Holy See’s site, but it’s a letter written in full from the Congregation of Divine Worship:

adoremus.org/Arinze_ProMultis.html
 
Pope Benedict XVI is explaining the good faith of these Jews based on their interpretation of the Old Testament, which is based on human reason alone. Remember that St. Paul said, “And no one can say ‘Jesus is Lord,’ except in the Holy Spirit.” (1 Cor. 12:3) Without this gift of the Holy Spirit, the unaided human reason can and in many cases will come to the conclusion that the Old Testament does not point to Christ.

Maria
I am not sure I understand since your meaning since:
St. Jn 7: 41-42 Others said: This is the Christ. But some said: Doth the Christ come out of Galilee? Doth not the scripture say: That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and from Bethlehem the town where David was?
St Jn 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen. But that the scripture may be fulfilled: He that eateth bread with me, shall lift up his heel against me.
St. Jn 17:12While I was with them, I kept them in thy name. Those whom thou gavest me have I kept; and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the scripture may be fulfilled.
St Jn 19:24 They said then one to another: Let us not cut it, but let us cast lots for it, whose it shall be; that the scripture might be fulfilled, saying: They have parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture they have cast lot. And the soldiers indeed did these things
St Jn 19:28 Afterwards, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, said: I thirst.
St Lk. 4:21 And he began to say to them: This day is fulfilled this scripture in your ears.

…there are many more passages which clearly point indicate that the Old Testament points to Christ. As a Catholic, Priest, Pontiff, etc, should explain it a such.
There are two valid theological opinions on what is essential for transubstantiation: 1) Only “This is My Body/This is My Blood” are essential; this was the opinion held by St. Pius X. 2) The whole formula is essential for transubstantiation; this opinion was held by St. Thomas Aquinas.

I agree that the second opinion is more likely the correct opinion. However, I do not understand it the way you are understanding it. In other words, I understand it to mean that the long form is whatever formula has been approved by the Church for use in a rite.

So for example, in the Tridentine Rite, the long form would be:

In the Byzantine Rite, the long form would be:

In the Armenian Rite, the long form would be:

In the Ethiopian (Ge’ez) Rite, Anaphora of the Apostles, the long form would be:

In the vernacular Pauline Rite, the long form would be:

You see, the long form opinion can’t mean that only the Tridentine formula is the valid one because that would mean that the Eastern rites are invalid. It can only mean that the long form required for transubstantiation is whatever form has been duly approved for use in a particular rite.

I’m not sure I’m explaining this very well.

Maria
No I think I follow you quite well. I agree with you and that St. Thomas that the whole formula is correct and also I would take from what Christ himself said in St Mt 26: 26-28, St Mk 14:22-24, St Lk :22:19-20, etc. This is sufficient to conclude that the whole formula is required and not a partial one.
Thank you for your kind response.
 
No I think I follow you quite well. I agree with you and that St. Thomas that the whole formula is correct and also I would take from what Christ himself said in St Mt 26: 26-28, St Mk 14:22-24, St Lk :22:19-20, etc. This is sufficient to conclude that the whole formula is required and not a partial one.
Thank you for your kind response.
But Maria has not (now or ever) argued that the formula used in the English translation of the Pauline Rite rendered the confection of the Holy Sacrifice invalid (she’s cited disciplinary infallibility repeatedly). Do you agree with her (and the Holy See) on that count?
 
And just before the part you quoted:Should not Christians henceforth read the Bible as Jews do, in order to show proper respect for its Jewish origins?
Christians should read the Bible as Christ would have wanted us to, as that he fulfilled scripture (see post #121). In addition, I think it suffices to acknowledge Judaism instead of respect it. I understand their exists Judaism and rightly so, but I find it extremely difficult as a Catholic to use the word respect for any religion, sect, etc., that denies Jesus Christ as Messiah and the Holy Trinity.
In answer to the last question, a negative response must be given for hermeneutical reasons. For to read the Bible as Judaism does necessarily involves an implicit acceptance of all its presuppositions, that is, the full acceptance of what Judaism is, in particular, the authority of its writings and rabbinic traditions, which exclude faith in Jesus as Messiah and Son of God.
I disagree, as a Christian I have to read it from a Christian Perspective and strive to elucidate it this way to others. I think this says it well :
St Lk 1:16 And he shall convert many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God.
 
This thread is now closed. If anyone wants to continue to discuss any side issues, you may do so by starting a new thread. Thank you to all who participated.
 
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