Well, I heard it at Mass today

[cmforte]

I wonder why some in this thread had to pull out the anti-Semite card? If Jesus was Roman among a crowd of other Romans, would the ones who interpret this verse as being about “sharing” (which isn’t me, btw) be anti-Roman? Racist against them? Be saying that all Romans are greedy? Or could it be that they were just talking about *one particular group *of Romans (or Jews),. like this crowd? I think sometimes we pull out the race card, the Nazi card, and the anti-Semite card a little too quickly.

-Chris

 

[cmforte]

And please remember to go easy on your preists and deacons. They are ordinary men with lives like you, and they sometimes make mistakes.

Especially go easy on your deacons, because they are your servants. They have families and jobs which come before their role as a deacon. They are human, so have some mercy.

-Tim-

I do.

 

[clem456]

Jesus performs the miraculous, with the sharing help of his fellow human beings. That’s the point…if the boy does not share all that he has, Jesus miracle is what? A merely spiritual wonderment? If all that we require is a sign from God, without sharing all that we have, then Jesus has no need of the Catholic Church. With a snap of his fingers he would have accomplished it all. He wants us to -share- in His mission. So, if the deacon truly did deny that Jesus performed a miracle, he would be wrong. If he is emphasizing **your own role **in giving of yourself, then maybe some more contemplation is in order before dismissing the homily.

 

[clem456]

I agree it is a dumb theory! (and a very wrong theory). Please be aware that this is not what the Church is teaching officially…it is nothing more than the wrong opinions of others.

I am so glad to hear those who can refute them and stand up for the truth! In these times we Catholics need to inform ourselves and prayerfully stand up to the errors all around us! May the Lord help us.

If you will notice in this passage, Jesus asks of those around him to share in his ministry, it cannot be avoided. As much as we would like Jesus to just get the miracle done, he asks for cooperation:

““Matthew 14:13 When Jesus heard of it, he withdrew in a boat to a deserted place by himself. The crowds heard of this and followed him on foot from their towns. 14 When he disembarked and saw the vast crowd, his heart was moved with pity for them, and he cured their sick. 15When it was evening, the disciples approached him and said, “This is a deserted place and it is already late; dismiss the crowds so that they can go to the villages and buy food for themselves.” 16 [Jesus] said to them, “There is no need for them to go away; give them some food yourselves.” 17 But they said to him, “Five loaves and two fish are all we have here.” 18Then he said, “Bring them here to me,” 19 and he ordered the crowds to sit down on the grass. Taking the five loaves and the two fish, and looking up to heaven, he said the blessing, broke the loaves, and **gave them to the disciples, who in turn *gave them to the crowds. 20They all ate and were satisfied, and they picked up the fragments left over—twelve wicker baskets full. 21 Those who ate were about five thousand men, not counting women and children.””

The Gospel is demanding. It is not merely supernatural signs and wonders, although it certainly is that! It requires we share in the mission, get our hands dirty, feed the people as Jesus commanded above^^, gather what we have and share it^^, share the miracles God works for us with others^^.

 

[clem456]

Referring to the sentence in blue in post 31:

It would make zero theological or literary sense, to the writers and the readers, to believe that the same Jesus who knew and disclosed the secrets of various people in the gospels, would somehow not know about all this hidden food.

It really slays me how so many otherwise educated and self-proclaimed “educated” people are unable to use common sense, not to mention unable to appreciate any textual consistency whatsoever when approaching scripture, even if they might be horrified at the notion of interpreting secular ancient texts with a 21st century lens. Somehow, it’s acceptable to “interpret” (with no training or with bad training) scripture as if

~the evangelists were idiots
~Our Lord was deficient in IQ
~We moderns are way smarter than those dumb ancients

This is a huge theological issue that we do not have time or expertise to debate here. I do not pretend to know the answer to the “Jesus’ knowing” issue. But in light of what you have written, keep this passage in mind also:

Mark 5
""And he went with him, and a great multitude followed him, and they thronged him. 25 And a woman who was under an issue of blood twelve years, 26 And had suffered many things from many physicians; and had spent all that she had, and was nothing the better, but rather worse, 27 When she had heard of Jesus, came in the crowd behind him, and touched his garment. 28 For she said: If I shall touch but his garment, I shall be whole. 29 And forthwith the fountain of her blood was dried up, and she felt in her body that she was healed of the evil. 30 And immediately Jesus knowing in himself the virtue that had proceeded from him, turning to the multitude, said: Who hath touched my garments? 31 And his disciples said to him: Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou who hath touched me? 32 And he looked about to see her who had done this. 33 But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth. 34 And he said to her: Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole: go in peace, and be thou whole of thy disease.

So what does Jesus know and when did he know it? Do we really know the answer to that question? The only thing we do know…? He can work the mircaculous with the cooperation of faith and sharing of our lives. In fact we see in the Gospels that in his own hometown he could work very little, because of their lack of cooperation in faith. Interesting…

 

[TimothyH]

Jesus performs the miraculous, with the sharing help of his fellow human beings. That’s the point…if the boy does not share all that he has, Jesus miracle is what? A merely spiritual wonderment? If all that we require is a sign from God, without sharing all that we have, then Jesus has no need of the Catholic Church. With a snap of his fingers he would have accomplished it all. He wants us to -share- in His mission. So, if the deacon truly did deny that Jesus performed a miracle, he would be wrong. If he is emphasizing **your own role **in giving of yourself, then maybe some more contemplation is in order before dismissing the homily.

We see your point clearly in the story of Israel crossing the Jordan and entering the promised land.

**When those bearing the ark came to the Jordan and the feet of the priests bearing the ark were immersed in the waters of the Jordan—which overflows all its banks during the entire season of the harvest— the waters flowing from upstream halted, standing up in a single heapg for a very great distance indeed, from Adam, a city in the direction of Zarethan; those flowing downstream toward the Salt Sea of the Arabah disappeared entirely. Thus the people crossed over opposite Jericho. ** (Joshua 3:15-16)

This was when all of Israel was to finally cross the Jordan river, to enter the promised land. But the Jordan River was flooded, and they did not know how they were to cross. God told them to enter the river and don’t worry about it, but God did not stop the river from flowing until their feet touched the water.

They had to step out first, in faith, believing that God would do it. Only then did God perform a miracle. Only after they actually stepped into the flooded river did God stop the flow of water.

Over and over in the Old Testament, God says, “I am the Lord, and I will do it.” We have to believe that, and act, then God will do it. Mother Theresa used to get off an airplane, walk to the nearest rectory, knock on the door and say, “Jesus wants me to sleep here tonight.” Mother angelica started EWTN with $250 and a tape recorder. They acted in faith, and look what God has done.

This is something I am struggling with right now. I’m standing on the edge of my own Jordan River and God has said “I will do it.” But I am hesitating, afraid. I wish I could trust more.

-Tim-

 

[clem456]

We see your point clearly in the story of Israel crossing the Jordan and entering the promised land.

***When those bearing the ark came to the Jordan and the feet of the priests bearing the ark were immersed in the waters of the Jordan—which overflows all its banks during the entire season of the harvest— the waters flowing from upstream halted, standing up in a single heapg for a very great distance indeed, from Adam, a city in the direction of Zarethan; those flowing downstream toward the Salt Sea of the Arabah disappeared entirely. Thus the people crossed over opposite Jericho. *** (Joshua 3:15-16)

This was when all of Israel was to finally cross the Jordan river, to enter the promised land. But the Jordan River was flooded, and they did not know how they were to cross. God told them to enter the river and don’t worry about it, but God did not stop the river from flowing until their feet touched the water.

They had to step out first, in faith, believing that God would do it. Only then did God perform a miracle. Only after they actually stepped into the flooded river did God stop the flow of water.

Over and over in the Old Testament, God says, “I am the Lord, and I will do it.” We have to believe that, and act, then God will do it. Mother Theresa used to get off an airplane, walk to the nearest rectory, knock on the door and say, “Jesus wants me to sleep here tonight.” Mother angelica started EWTN with $250 and a tape recorder. They acted in faith, and look what God has done.

This is something I am struggling with right now. I’m standing on the edge of my own Jordan River and God has said “I will do it.” But I am hesitating, afraid. I wish I could trust more.

-Tim-

Amen Tim, the Christian life demands everything, not merely the recognition of miracles. Even the demons know that Jesus performs the miraculous. How are we to share in the mission…? that is the question He asks of us. It is our call to step out in trust.

 

[Dorothy]

If you will notice in this passage, Jesus asks of those around him to share in his ministry, it cannot be avoided. As much as we would like Jesus to just get the miracle done, he asks for cooperation:

““Matthew 14:13 When Jesus heard of it, he withdrew in a boat to a deserted place by himself. The crowds heard of this and followed him on foot from their towns. 14 When he disembarked and saw the vast crowd, his heart was moved with pity for them, and he cured their sick. 15When it was evening, the disciples approached him and said, “This is a deserted place and it is already late; dismiss the crowds so that they can go to the villages and buy food for themselves.” 16 [Jesus] said to them, “There is no need for them to go away; give them some food yourselves.” 17 But they said to him, “Five loaves and two fish are all we have here.” 18Then he said, “Bring them here to me,” 19 and he ordered the crowds to sit down on the grass. Taking the five loaves and the two fish, and looking up to heaven, he said the blessing, broke the loaves, and **gave them to the disciples, who in turn *gave them to the crowds. 20They all ate and were satisfied, and they picked up the fragments left over—twelve wicker baskets full. 21 Those who ate were about five thousand men, not counting women and children.””

The Gospel is demanding. It is not merely supernatural signs and wonders, although it certainly is that! It requires we share in the mission, get our hands dirty, feed the people as Jesus commanded above^^, gather what we have and share it^^, share the miracles God works for us with others^^.

Yes…the Lord needs our faith and cooperation!

 

[clem456]

Yes…the Lord needs our faith and cooperation!

I catch your drift, although God is in need of nothing. We are needed to cooperate in the mission that Jesus started in us. Faith is truly a relationship.

 

[Elizabeth502]

This is a huge theological issue that we do not have time or expertise to debate here. I do not pretend to know the answer to the “Jesus’ knowing” issue. But in light of what you have written, keep this passage in mind also:

So what does Jesus know and when did he know it? Do we really know the answer to that question? .

Well, we “know” it, clem, based on the logic of these miracle passages and from the character of Jesus as consistently presented. As Steve Ray points out, and as I have studied elsewhere, it defies the integrity of each of the gospels (which have a shape, each of them, to their own) to present a Jesus in this particular case (with the loaves & fishes event) as being clueless with regard to custom, with regard to the physical facts, with regard to truth.

Yes, I understand what you’re saying as to his personal knowledge (especially on a human level, given his dual nature) of the dynamics and origin of his “power,” but that is not the same thing as the suggestion Ray refutes, that Jesus was engaging in deception on the one hand, or stupidity on the other. And if the former, it would portray Jesus uncharacteristically as being on an ego-trip for the empty purpose of “showing power.” Nothing would be less in keeping with Him than that: it opposes the portrayal of Him by all of the evangelists – as someone who did not flaunt His power, and as someone whose “signs and wonders” were in the divine realm, not the human.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

it defies the integrity of each of the gospels (which have a shape, each of them, to their own) to present a Jesus in this particular case (with the loaves & fishes event) as being clueless with regard to custom

The Gospels are actually quite clear in general that Jesus was most familiar with custom of the times and of His people. It strikes me as not at all coincidental that he lived 33 years or so, and 30 of them were not devoted to His ministry. Many of his lessons and engagement with others shows very clear understanding of the customs and the peoples of the time. The story of the Samaritan woman rings an immediate bell for me, as he was keenly aware of the relationships between the Jews and Samaritans of His day.

 

[Richard320]

We have an absolutely wonderful deacon in my parish that gave the homily this Sunday. He interpreted it as (and I felt the same) that it was about bringing your gifts to God, now matter how small you think they may be, and he will mutliply them and give you more than enough for His mission.

Same here!

Even if you think you don’t have enough, if you’re doing it for God, He’ll make it stretch!

That new-age **** about everyone sharing is what Fr Groeschel refers to as the soggy tuna sandwich theory.

 

[clem456]

Our homily also focused on the participation of the 3 people in the gospel, and how Jesus takes what we have and works miracles. Our homilist is a Monsignor who is a scripture scholar.

We must be careful to distinguish between a homily that denies the miraculous and the divinity of Christ, and a homily that is focused on the call to action clearly presented in this Gospel.

 

[Elizabeth502]

We must be careful to distinguish between a homily that denies the miraculous and the divinity of Christ, and a homily that is focused on the call to action clearly presented in this Gospel.

Absolutely. And there needn’t be a conflict. There are many messages and meanings to take from this passage without doing violence to the physical miracle:

~the compassion of God
~the infinite abundance of God
~trust in God to provide (for us, as individuals) when it appears that we have “nothing”
~modeling ourselves after the One who took initiiatve to see who did in fact need compassion, and who answered that call Himself.
~trust in the true miracle of grace to carry us through when we cannot of our own accord or power

 

[TimothyH]

It is our call to step out in trust.

So difficult to do…

-Tim-

 

[clem456]

So difficult to do…

-Tim-

Yes. Difficult to overcome fear and self-reliance. It helps me to remember that trust in Him always brings fullfillment. It may require a lot of struggle, but hey, we have a good role model in that regard.

 

[applesofgold]

I missed most of the homily. My mind was full of conspiracy theories as to how the feminist taliban got to our pastor because the Gospel we heard said Jesus fed 5000 PEOPLE.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

I missed most of the homily. My mind was full of conspiracy theories as to how the feminist taliban got to our pastor because the Gospel we heard said Jesus fed 5000 PEOPLE.

Well, the [bleep] Myrrh-Bearers and the Paralytic [bleep] weren’t able to make it to the Sermon on the Mount …

 

[Exorcist]

I have no doubt that some of you have heard it today as well. The infamous, “the real miracle was sharing” from today’s Gosple from John 6:1-15…the multiplication of the loaves and fishes. A deacon from a different parish, who was recently ordained in June gave the homliy. At first he was telling how people use to travel in those days, then he said that the real miracle was that the young man giving up his food giving it to Jesus, mean while I was saying on the inside; please don’t say it, please don’t say it… Then, that inspired others who had food with them to share with those who didn’t…facepalm. What a great diservice that homilies or explinations like these do to the Evangelists, the witnesses of the miracle, and to Christ Himself. Christ raises a girl from the dead, changes water to wine, raises Lazarus from the dead after 4 days, etc, etc, etc, and He can’t multiple a few loaves and fishes? Come on, give me a break.

The sharing explination to this reading doesnt account for the 12 baskets left over.

We COMPLETELY ran out of consecrated hosts (including those in repose in the tabernacle) and precious blood at this Mass. That NEVER happens in my parish.

Our wonderful parochial vicar said “I’m not sure what we are to take from this experience” just before he gave the final blessing…

 

[jmcrae]

I have no doubt that some of you have heard it today as well. The infamous, “the real miracle was sharing” from today’s Gosple from John 6:1-15…the multiplication of the loaves and fishes. A deacon from a different parish, who was recently ordained in June gave the homliy. At first he was telling how people use to travel in those days, then he said that the real miracle was that the young man giving up his food giving it to Jesus, mean while I was saying on the inside; please don’t say it, please don’t say it… Then, that inspired others who had food with them to share with those who didn’t…facepalm. What a great diservice that homilies or explinations like these do to the Evangelists, the witnesses of the miracle, and to Christ Himself. Christ raises a girl from the dead, changes water to wine, raises Lazarus from the dead after 4 days, etc, etc, etc, and He can’t multiple a few loaves and fishes? Come on, give me a break.

The sharing explination to this reading doesnt account for the 12 baskets left over.

I was so proud of our priest- he showed five proofs from the Gospel account itself that it was an actual miracle, and not a “miracle of sharing.”

The twelve baskets left over is one of them - unfortunately my memory is short and I don’t recall the rest of them. But the point of the miracle is that we don’t need to be rich to be followers of Jesus - He will take good care of us in our material needs, alongside our spiritual needs.