Well, I like guitars

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QUOTE=Cat;7979304
If indeed Latin and chant were strictly sacred, with no secular uses at all, I might go along with what you are saying. But there are plenty of 'secular" Latin pieces. Latin is not, as some insist, “the language of God.”

I mentioned in another post that there are plenty of secular “chants” being written today–see Harry Potter. Many people do not see chant as “sacred” music. Who knows what non-European, non-white people would think of it? Perhaps it would be “devil music” to them, and they would not be able to change their mindset and accept it as “sacred.” I know I have a hard time thinking of Gregorian chant as “church music.”

Just because these things are used outside of the Liturgy doesn’t make them non-sacred. No one has control over what other people with free will do. If it is actual liturgical Chant music that is being used in a profane/secular manner, that does constitute sacrilege.

To follow your line of thought, someone could say that, since sacred vessels are used in some forms of devil worship (or even the Eucharist in certain desecrations/ black masses), it is understandable that we shouldn’t use them ourselves or that the priest should not confect the Eucharist.

Anyway, why should the rest of the Church have to suffer and lack certain parts of our musical patrimony because someone has “issues”? The issues will have to be dealt with compassionately , but let’s not make our Masses into a therapy session for this or that individual.
 
I think it seems rather elitist and small-minded, not to mention racist and imperialistic, to dump regional cultures and replace their rich, lush music with the staid, meandering Gregorian chant and the windy sounds of a pipe organ. Of course, perhaps those who are not white and European (or Euro-American) would disagree with me–I think it would good to hear what they have to say about this.

I certainly wouldn’t expect them to use organ. I don’t even expect Western Masses to use organ - I advocate it as a preferrable instrument (if instruments have to be used at all).

As far as getting the opinion of those who are “not white and European”, you have your guy in Cardinal Arinze. But he’s only an Apostle, and head of the Congregation for Divine Worship, so he might not count.
 
I think it seems rather elitist and small-minded, not to mention racist and imperialistic, to dump regional cultures and replace their rich, lush music …

Westerners also have a “rich, lush” musical heritage (including Jazz), and yet we (should) set aside secular styles when engaging in Sacred actions.
 
So for us, Haugen and Haas, et. al, brought us to tears of joy, as we felt that we had “come home” to a true Christian church.

I had no idea that there was any dislike of this music among Catholics. I remember when I first discovered on CAF that there is conflict between lovers of “traditional” music and fo “Post Vat II” music, I was very upset and discouraged. I still am. I find it disheartening to read some of the vitriolic comments that some Catholics make about these very beautiful, gentle, peaceable, thoughtful, joyful, lovely songs.

I know that some of you hate the poetry and the metaphors in the Haugen et. al songs, but to me, the lyrics are rich and lush, full of beautiful imagery about Jesus and the Church. Often the text of the Haugen et. al songs is straight from the Bible.

The compositional design of the music you speak of itself has a psychological effect that
can make one feel like having “tears of joy” etc. These “very beautiful, gentle, peaceable, thoughtful, joyful lovely songs” are not criticized for being such, but for being inappropriate to the Mass. I agree with you about some of these characteristics, but the
songs are more suitable for a different venue.
 
(continued from last post)

Many converts will give testimony that they started out in a Life Teen or some other “modern” Mass, and then gradually became more comfortable with the traditional music and eventually some converts move into the full-blown TLM.

Same for Protestants coming into the Catholic Church. The “bridge songs” are their “small talk,” something that makes them feel that this is, indeed, a Christian place. As they become more comfortable in the Catholic Church, they will eventually move on to deeper music that is dearer to the heart of the traditional Catholic Church. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IMO, these accomodations should not be done in most parishes. Where would these things take place, if not at the local parish? It is unfair to those who are already Catholic to have their Mass music continually tinkered with for evangelical purposes. Education in the doctrines of the Faith is more important for seekers than what you propose.
 
(continued from last post)

Many Protestants are taught that the Catholic Church is anti-Christ, a pagan cult, a Babylonian mystery cult in which a goddess (Mary) is worshipped, and Christ is re-sacrificed over and over again.

At the very least, the Mass is utterly foreign and unfamiliar to evangelical Protestants, who have worship services with no regular liturgy. Indeed, to evangelicals, liturgy is something man-made and therefore contrary to Christian faith.

What you as a traditional Catholic consider “modern” and “secular,” the evangelical Protestant would consider “ritualistic” and “theatrical.” The glorious vesments, the processional, the gestures, the responses–all of this is completely, utterly, foreign, strange, weird, and in some cases, offensive, to the evangelical Protestant, who has been taught that all of this is man-made!

A Catholic Mass is not exactly where I would expect to find someone who holds the above beliefs, and even if someone of this ilk were ripe for evangelization, it would be better done outside of the Mass. We can’t change the Mass to accomodate every mistaken non-Catholic notion of the Faith. Anyway, you would need ESP to know which type of “seeker” would be coming in that day, so you could plan your music accordingly.
 
(continued from last post)

This is, BTW, what the Protestant megachurches do–they hold “seeker services” for new people, and “study services” for Christians who need a deeper worship and teaching experience. The megachurches attract tens of thousands of people with this approach. I think it would be good for the Catholic Church in the U.S. to consider this approach. Again, I’m not advocating an abuse-filled Mass. Just a little “CCM” in the Mass, and some friendly greeters before and after Mass. Both CCM and greeters are allowed by the GIRM.

Why would these Catholicized “seeker services” that you propose have to be the MASS?
Also, I don’t know what “CCM” means.
 
Cat;7978958:
So for us, Haugen and Haas, et. al, brought us to tears of joy, as we felt that we had “come home” to a true Christian church.

I had no idea that there was any dislike of this music among Catholics. I remember when I first discovered on CAF that there is conflict between lovers of “traditional” music and fo “Post Vat II” music, I was very upset and discouraged. I still am. I find it disheartening to read some of the vitriolic comments that some Catholics make about these very beautiful, gentle, peaceable, thoughtful, joyful, lovely songs.

I know that some of you hate the poetry and the metaphors in the Haugen et. al songs, but to me, the lyrics are rich and lush, full of beautiful imagery about Jesus and the Church. Often the text of the Haugen et. al songs is straight from the Bible.

The compositional design of the music you speak of itself has a psychological effect that
can make one feel like having “tears of joy” etc. These “very beautiful, gentle, peaceable, thoughtful, joyful lovely songs” are not criticized for being such, but for being inappropriate to the Mass. I agree with you about some of these characteristics, but the
songs are more suitable for a different venue.
Now I have seen everything - someone who doesn’t even know a person telling them that their experience of the e.g. Haugen song was because the compositional style induces pychological emotions - this is truly beyond the pale and really infers a sort of brainwashing on the matter. We could say the same about chant, that the monastic style really only induces you to think you are monastic and prayerful - come on, you are beyond out on a limb on this one.
 

Why would these Catholicized “seeker services” that you propose have to be the MASS?
Also, I don’t know what “CCM” means.
Because it is in the Mass that Jesus is Truly Present.

That is ultimately what convinced me, while I was Protestant, that the Catholic Church is the True Church of Jesus Christ. I recognized Jesus when I saw Him elevated at the consecration.

If you want non-Catholics to experience Catholicism, they must be in attendance at a Mass, since the Eucharist is the Summit of our lives on this earth.

I attended several months of Catholic apologetics class, which was certainly informative and helpful. But it wasn’t where Jesus was. It was in the Mass that I saw Jesus, Truly Present.

I am convinced that the best way to evangelize Protestants is to get them to Mass. Yes, we need to live holy lives that are a daily, living testimony of the sanctifying work of Jesus Christ. We need to demonstrate the love of Christ to all we meet.

But ultimately, a person will meet Jesus in Mass, not in me, and not in a class or a concert.
 
The Church has a body of music created especially for Mass. It’s stupid to replace it entirely with slushy, simple-minded modern alternatives, which may not be particularly Catholic.

Here’s a template for a modern hymn:

[sings]

Repeat the same phrase,
Repeat the same phrase,
Repeat the same phrase, again and again,
Repeat the same phrase,
Repeat the same phrase,
Repeat the same phrase,
Again, again.

ZZzzzzzz.
 
yep.
The Church has a body of music created especially for Mass. It’s stupid to replace it entirely with slushy, simple-minded modern alternatives, which may not be particularly Catholic.

Here’s a template for a modern hymn:

[sings]

Repeat the same phrase,
Repeat the same phrase,
Repeat the same phrase, again and again,
Repeat the same phrase,
Repeat the same phrase,
Repeat the same phrase,
Again, again.

ZZzzzzzz.
 
The Church has a body of music created especially for Mass. It’s stupid to replace it entirely with slushy, simple-minded modern alternatives, which may not be particularly Catholic.

Here’s a template for a modern hymn:

[sings]

Repeat the same phrase,
Repeat the same phrase,
Repeat the same phrase, again and again,
Repeat the same phrase,
Repeat the same phrase,
Repeat the same phrase,
Again, again.

ZZzzzzzz.
Can you please cite an example of a modern hymn with this template that is currently sung in Catholic Masses?

Thank you.
 
Can you please cite an example of a modern hymn with this template that is currently sung in Catholic Masses?

Thank you.
Agreed. I have yet to encounter a piece by Haugen, Haas, or Tate that holds this form.
 
I went a-lookin’ on the net and found a certain commonality of opinion as to the what is the worst Catholic hymn music.

I was at a Novus Ordo Mass at the weekend and I heard a familiar tune and yes, it was ‘On Eagle’s Wings’. So now I can put a tune to the title. Are these authors getting royalties for these hymns and if so, why pay them good money when there are surely a lot of hymns out of copyright?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=197443
crazyquiltscatholicsandcookies.blogspot.com/2011/04/ten-worst-catholic-hymns.html
firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/07/06/are-these-the-ten-worst-hymns-of-all-time/

My template was inspired by a vague memory of a certain hymn. Or a mash-up of all the tiring ones I sat through. Now that I’ve made up my own catchy ones (see above) I can’t remember the original lyrics!

“Repeat the same phrase,
Repeat the same phrase,
Repeat the same phrase … dang it!”
 
I went a-lookin’ on the net and found a certain commonality of opinion as to the what is the worst Catholic hymn music.

I was at a Novus Ordo Mass at the weekend and I heard a familiar tune and yes, it was ‘On Eagle’s Wings’. So now I can put a tune to the title. Are these authors getting royalties for these hymns and if so, why pay them good money when there are surely a lot of hymns out of copyright?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=197443
crazyquiltscatholicsandcookies.blogspot.com/2011/04/ten-worst-catholic-hymns.html
firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/07/06/are-these-the-ten-worst-hymns-of-all-time/

My template was inspired by a vague memory of a certain hymn. Or a mash-up of all the tiring ones I sat through. Now that I’ve made up my own catchy ones (see above) I can’t remember the original lyrics!

“Repeat the same phrase,
Repeat the same phrase,
Repeat the same phrase … dang it!”
Eagle’s Wings came in on number 5 best liked on this survey.

americancatholic.org/messenger/may1996/feature2.asp#F8
 
I like guitars too.

But since Mass is the sacrifice of Christ on Calvary, and at Mass we, in a way, transcend time and are placed at the foot of His cross, I have to ask myself: if I am standing under the cross of Christ and He is there, nailed to the cross, dying. His blood being spilled upon the ground beneath my feet as He offers Himself up for the sins of the world, is this the right time to get out the guitars and drum kit?
Well, yes actually. The mass isn’t called a celebration for nothing. The mass is not merely a matter of remembering the death of Jesus on the cross, but also one of recalling and reliving his resurrection from the dead, his redemption of God’s fallen people, his victory over death, which includes our victory over death, God’s love for his people and his desire to unite himself with us, God’s self-gift to us in the incarnation, the promise of God’s kingdom, the new life we share as believers! Heck, yeh, bring out the guitars . . . and the cowbells! The very rocks themselves cry out for joy in the sacrifice of the mass! Why shouldn’t we?
 
Well, yes actually. The mass isn’t called a celebration for nothing. The mass is not merely a matter of remembering the death of Jesus on the cross, but also one of recalling and reliving his resurrection from the dead, his redemption of God’s fallen people, his victory over death, which includes our victory over death, God’s love for his people and his desire to unite himself with us, God’s self-gift to us in the incarnation, the promise of God’s kingdom, the new life we share as believers! Heck, yeh, bring out the guitars . . . and the cowbells! The very rocks themselves cry out for joy in the sacrifice of the mass! Why shouldn’t we?
Bravo!

After all, even though HE died, HE did come out of it; so how mournful are we expected to be???🙂

ICXC NIKA!
 
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