Well, I like guitars

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Cat said:
Yes, from what I’ve seen in my city, when polyphonic chant is the music used at Mass, the congregation definitely decreases.
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LOL! I couldn’t find the laughing on the floor icon, but you made me laugh.
 
Cat said:
The fact is, the Catholic Church has not forbidden guitars, piano, and other instruments in the celebration of the Mass. That’s it–end of argument. … These instruments are not strictly secular, and can be played in a reverent and appropriate way for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Those who condemn them are condemning their Church’s rubrics, and that’s rebellion, which was the sin that felled Lucifer.
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The fact is, the Catholic Church has not forbidden Led Zeppelin’s “Stairway to Heaven” from being played during Holy Communion. That’s it–end of argument. This song is not strictly secular (after all, it’s about getting to Heaven, right?) and can played in a reverent and appropriate way for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Those who condemn Led Zeppelin’s “Stairway to Heaven” during Holy Communion are condemning their Church’s rubrics, and that’s rebellion (:eek:), which was the sin that felled Lucifer. (:bigyikes:)
 
Will_S said:
The fact is, the Catholic Church has not forbidden Led Zeppelin’s “Stairway to Heaven” from being played during Holy Communion. That’s it–end of argument. This song is not strictly secular (after all, it’s about getting to Heaven, right?) and can played in a reverent and appropriate way for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Those who condemn Led Zeppelin’s “Stairway to Heaven” during Holy Communion are condemning their Church’s rubrics, and that’s rebellion (:eek:), which was the sin that felled Lucifer. (:bigyikes:)
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Thank you for putting it so clearly (at least to me) as this is something I’ve been trying to get across. Naturally, with my lack of knowledge of Led Zeppelin, I couldn’t come up with that. But yes, we cannot have the mindset that something is allowed because the Church doesn’t SAY we can’t do it. If that were the case, the directives of the Church would be so immense, not even the U.S. government red tape could compare to it and nobody would have a clue what they are. In situations like these, we need guidelines from the Church, tradition and, of course, common sense.

Might I suggest “Pennies from Heaven” for a slightly more mellow touch? 🙂
 
Will_S said:
I like guitars too.

But since Mass is the sacrifice of Christ on Calvary, and at Mass we, in a way, transcend time and are placed at the foot of His cross, I have to ask myself: if I am standing under the cross of Christ and He is there, nailed to the cross, dying. His blood being spilled upon the ground beneath my feet as He offers Himself up for the sins of the world, is this the right time to get out the guitars and drum kit?
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That is exactly the way we should think of Mass and I have told people this on numerous occasions. When friends say to me: " I don’t go to mass anymore - if it was like Sister Act (the movie) I would go" that is: with people all up on the altar (stage?) singing, clapping, tamberines etc. - I say to them: what is Mass? They usually do not respond with anything recgonisable as Catholic theology unfortunately. They say to me: “I do not want to go to mass to feel depressed - I want it to be a “celebration” ( which seems to be the key word nowadays)”. I then tell them essentially what you have said here: “Imagine how you would act at the foot of Calvary’s Cross. Mass is the unbloody sacrafice of Calvary - the very same one. I wouldn’t think tamberines and clapping appropriate.”

If you are unsure of how you must act and in what manner, just think of the Blessed virgin at the foot of the Cross. She is always our best example of how we are to do the will of Christ. I cannot see her being happy with many of the events now being called celebrations in honor of her Son. I can see her however at many of the Masses I attend. The true celebration is being able to be present in a dignified manner at Mass and kneeling in the presence of Christ as our Blessed Mother has done before us.
 
Same old nonsensical arguments. If we strongly oppose tampering with our traditions, we’re really rebels and Protestants. The Protestant accusation always cracks me up because I’ve never known of Protestants who want the Latin Mass, Fatima devotions, Eucharistic Adoration, Rosary, Sacred Heart & Immaculate Heart of Mary devotions, stations of the cross, etc, etc.
 
If you oppose Led Zeppelin you are a traditional extremist. It is not forbidden.
 
The_Curt_Jester said:
Actually…

You’re taking on the common opinion: If it’s not explicitly forbidden then it’s okay to use. I would suggest following our current Holy Father’s example in regard to Church music. He has published a recent document on it.

My personal feelings actually have nothing to do with this. I don’t really understand how anyone can read the Church documents, both past and present, and come up with the conclusions you have.
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Ask my bishop this same question. And many other bishops as well.
 
Still, since modern music has risen mainly to serve profane uses, greater care must be taken with regard to it, in order that the musical compositions of modern style which are admitted in the Church may contain nothing profane, be free from reminiscences of motifs adopted in the theaters, and be not fashioned even in their external forms after the manner of profane pieces.
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Pope Saint Pius X
 
Will_S said:
The fact is, the Catholic Church has not forbidden Led Zeppelin’s “Stairway to Heaven” from being played during Holy Communion. That’s it–end of argument. This song is not strictly secular (after all, it’s about getting to Heaven, right?) and can played in a reverent and appropriate way for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Those who condemn Led Zeppelin’s “Stairway to Heaven” during Holy Communion are condemning their Church’s rubrics, and that’s rebellion (:eek:), which was the sin that felled Lucifer. (:bigyikes:)
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No one said anyone about “Stairway to Heaven.” That is hyperbole.

This is what the Documents of Vatican II say: "The pipe organ is to be held in high esteem in the Latin church, for it is the traditional musical instrument, the sound of which can add a wonderful splendor to the church’s ceremonies and can most effectively elevate people’s spirits to God and things above. Other instruments may also be used in divine worship, at the discretion and with the consent of the competent territorial authority…provided that they are suitable or can be made suitable, for sacred use, that they accord with the dignity of the sacred building, and that they truly contribute to the edification of the faithful.

The Church specifically says, “Other instruments may be used…” I am NOT assuming that the instruments may be used because the Church has not forbidden them! This document specifically states, “OTHER INSTRUMENTS MAY BE USED…”

That seems pretty clear to me.

These same documents are the same documents that say “The Church recognizes Gregorian chant as especially native to the Roman liturgy. Therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.”

So if anyone wants to say that the Documents of Vat. II are not binding, then we not only have to throw out the admonition to allow use of other instruments in the Mass (with permission of the territorial authority), but we also have to throw out the admonition that Gregorian chant be given pride of place and that the pipe organ is to be held in high esteeem.

We cannot pick and choose what we please out of the Church documents. So if you accept Gregorian chant and pipe organ in the liturgy, then you must also accept that other instruments are allowed in the liturgy (with permission of the bishop).

Again, it’s not me saying this, and it’s not my personal opinion, and it’s not me drawing questionable conclusions and it’s not me being “Protestant.”

It’s what our Church says.

As for Stairway to Heaven, the same document says, "Other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations so as they accord with the spirit of the liturgical action as laid down in Article 30. (I won’t quote Article 30, since it’s kind of long.) I personally don’t think “Stairway to Heaven” would be in accord with the spirit of Article 30, but that’s for the territorial authorit to decide, not me. I can’t help but feel that, with so many other beautiful pieces of music that were specifically written as sacred music, why would a music director choose Stairway to Heaven for a Mass? But like I said, not up to me.
 
Cat said:
So if anyone wants to say that the Documents of Vat. II are not binding, then we not only have to throw out the admonition to allow use of other instruments in the Mass (with permission of the territorial authority), but we also have to throw out the admonition that Gregorian chant be given pride of place and that the pipe organ is to be held in high esteeem.
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We cannot pick and choose what we please out of the Church documents. So if you accept Gregorian chant and pipe organ in the liturgy, then you must also accept that other instruments are allowed in the liturgy (with permission of the bishop).

That conclusion does not follow. Chant is acceptable because it was invented for the liturgy and has always (since it’s invention) been used in the Mass. It is not possible to make it ‘unsuitable’ for Mass.

The organ, on the other hand could be suppressed and, while I like organ music, I’d rather have the organ suppressed than the drum kit permitted.
 
Cat said:
Ask my bishop this same question. And many other bishops as well.
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I believe someone already mentioned a bishop who said guitars should not be used at Mass. He’s the Bishop of Rome. Try taking a look.
 
Stylites said:
Remember that Melchizedek didn’t need a liturgical committee or historical chants or have to follow his gut-feelings in order to offer proper worship to God. For everyone else, we have the Church, which allows or disallows, permits or proscribes certain liturgical actions.

Neither chants nor guitars are prohibited, and both are allowed by the Church, so we ought not try to otherwise speak for the Church by claiming that one or the other are required or that one or the other ought to be banned. No one really knows what kind of music Jesus enjoys hearing, but I can assume that He well-enjoys the humble and contrite heart which offers up the joyful noise, whatever it is.
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But, there is no liturgical tradition of guitars and other modern instruments in the divine liturgy This all came about in the last sixty years. Look at its fruits. Mass attendance in America has gone way down sense all these novelties were allowed.
 
  • Hallelujah! 2 Praise God in his holy sanctuary; give praise in the mighty dome of heaven.
    Give praise for his mighty deeds, praise him for his great majesty.
    Give praise with blasts upon the horn, praise him with harp and lyre.
    Give praise with tambourines and dance, praise him with flutes and strings.
    Give praise with crashing cymbals, praise him with sounding cymbals.
    Let everything that has breath give praise to the LORD! Hallelujah!*
From Psalm 150. I think this pretty much covers it. Any instrument described here, or any derivative thereof is biblically and historically reverent. Is a crashing cymbal irreverent? How about dance? You can answer both yes and no, depending on the context. And context is the key.
If you pick up a guitar(or someone else does) fully anticipating the worship and praise of the God of all creation, it is an act of reverence. There are some who say it doesn’t belong in the mass, but I would wait until the Holy Father officially says it doesn’t belong in the Mass before I would pass judgement on the lowly guitar.

The whole debate about music in the Mass has a historical and cultural context. Different cultures don’t even use our western 12 tone scale, so to mandate Bach fugues as a model for liturgical music would require a cultural upheaval in order to implement the mandate on a worldwide basis. I think alot of well-meaning and very charitable people are forgetting that western musical preferences are uniquely specific to our culture and for the most part didn’t even exist during the time of Christ, let alone the first centuries of the Church.

There is much wisdom, however, in placing chant as pride of place because it is entirely vocal and requires no expensive organs or other equally expensive instruments. We are born with the ability to sing, and it is freely given to us by God and I’m sure He enjoys listening to us sing very much. And that’s the central point. It’s all for God, it’s all for His pleasure, and ultimately when I pick up any instrument whatsoever and use my vocal chords, I am expressing my love for God, and I think that’s as close to the mark as I’ll get with the whole thing. However, I disagree with the notion that chant is the only legitimate means of worship, and I think Psalm 150 more than validates that.
I like guitars too. I don’t think they’re going away.
 
Will_S said:
That conclusion does not follow. Chant is acceptable because it was invented for the liturgy and has always (since it’s invention) been used in the Mass. It is not possible to make it ‘unsuitable’ for Mass.

The organ, on the other hand could be suppressed and, while I like organ music, I’d rather have the organ suppressed than the drum kit permitted.
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Personal preference seems to be the crux of the debate, and everyone can find something to validate it. Do you think that Pope Benedict(or any other Pope, for that matter) is unaware that guitars and drumkits or any other type of instrument is being used at Mass? Certainly the Pope and the Bishops will shepherd us in this matter, but until they do, it would be wise for the rest of us to wait before passing judgement, one way or the other. Until the Church speaks, it’s merely a matter of one person’s opinion over another. And since when has the Church ever been governed according to personal opinion? Let’s learn to love and respect one another.
 
Theophilus777 said:
  • Hallelujah! 2 Praise God in his holy sanctuary; give praise in the mighty dome of heaven.
    Give praise for his mighty deeds, praise him for his great majesty.
    Give praise with blasts upon the horn, praise him with harp and lyre.
    Give praise with tambourines and dance, praise him with flutes and strings.
    Give praise with crashing cymbals, praise him with sounding cymbals.
    Let everything that has breath give praise to the LORD! Hallelujah!*
From Psalm 150. I think this pretty much covers it. Any instrument described here, or any derivative thereof is biblically and historically reverent. Is a crashing cymbal irreverent? How about dance? You can answer both yes and no, depending on the context. And context is the key.
If you pick up a guitar(or someone else does) fully anticipating the worship and praise of the God of all creation, it is an act of reverence. There are some who say it doesn’t belong in the mass, but I would wait until the Holy Father officially says it doesn’t belong in the Mass before I would pass judgement on the lowly guitar.

The whole debate about music in the Mass has a historical and cultural context. Different cultures don’t even use our western 12 tone scale, so to mandate Bach fugues as a model for liturgical music would require a cultural upheaval in order to implement the mandate on a worldwide basis. I think alot of well-meaning and very charitable people are forgetting that western musical preferences are uniquely specific to our culture and for the most part didn’t even exist during the time of Christ, let alone the first centuries of the Church.

There is much wisdom, however, in placing chant as pride of place because it is entirely vocal and requires no expensive organs or other equally expensive instruments. We are born with the ability to sing, and it is freely given to us by God and I’m sure He enjoys listening to us sing very much. And that’s the central point. It’s all for God, it’s all for His pleasure, and ultimately when I pick up any instrument whatsoever and use my vocal chords, I am expressing my love for God, and I think that’s as close to the mark as I’ll get with the whole thing. However, I disagree with the notion that chant is the only legitimate means of worship, and I think Psalm 150 more than validates that.
I like guitars too. I don’t think they’re going away.
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I’ve seen this attempt to justify drums and tambourines at Mass elsewhere.

It fails.

We are to praise God and rejoice always, not just in Mass. You often see the Pope in other circumstances, outside of Holy Mass, enjoying music of other forms; these are forms of praise outside of Mass.
 
Edward_H said:
I’ve seen this attempt to justify drums and tambourines at Mass elsewhere.

It fails.

We are to praise God and rejoice always, not just in Mass. You often see the Pope in other circumstances, outside of Holy Mass, enjoying music of other forms; these are forms of praise outside of Mass.
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The Mass is NOT about our (subjective) idea of beauty!

When will we all wrap our heads around the fact that the Mass is not about us, and assent to what the Vatican says is ok?

All the energy we use to judge things that are not ours to judge, could be used working off our Purgatory!

ICXC NIKA.
 
Edward_H said:
I’ve seen this attempt to justify drums and tambourines at Mass elsewhere.

It fails.

We are to praise God and rejoice always, not just in Mass. You often see the Pope in other circumstances, outside of Holy Mass, enjoying music of other forms; these are forms of praise outside of Mass.
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I think you raise an excellent point, namely, that there should be other opportunities for Catholics to praise God and make music outside of Mass.

The problem is, what form do these opportunities take? Could you please describe how your parish does this? Do you offer concerts or a concert series? Or is there a Praise and Worship “service” done perhaps on Sunday afternoon, or during the week? Or perhaps during the summer, do you do outdoor concerts featuring local Catholic rock bands or other Catholic soloists/groups?

I would be very interested in how other parishes offer their members contemporary music, including not only rock, but also praise music (e.g., Sandy Patti, Steve Green, etc.–these are examples of singers who do the styles of music that I cam calling “praise”), and other styles of Christian music deemed “not appropriate for Mass.”

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut and ideas!

I visited a Catholic Church once that did something I really liked. After the Mass (OF, very reverent), while most of the people were leaving, a few dozen people in the congregation gathered around the piano, and the pianist, who was very good, played a number of contemporary Christian songs, and those gathered around sang with all their hearts. Of course, I asked, “What’s going on? Is this the choir practice?” And they told me that this was their “praise time.”

I really, really liked this! I enjoy playing contemporary piano pieces, and I am an excellent accompanist, so I have thought about asking Father if I can start something like this up in our parish. I’m sure it would be small at first, but I think that as word got around, it would grow. I think it would also meet a need for “fellowship and friends.” I’m guessing that the group might eventually start going out after the Praise Time.

The problem is, that there is a small group of people who insist that the time after Mass should be silent so that they can pray. Our church has a 24/7 Adoration Chapel where those people could go to pray after Mass, but it is a short walk away from the main building, and it would be a hardship for some of the older folks to take that walk, not to mention that it would be unpleasant to walk over to the Chapel in inclement weather. One possibility would be to delay the “Praise Time” until fifteen minutes after the Mass, which, from what I understand, is the time suggested for prayer after Mass by those who follow this practice. I think that would be reasonable and practical.

What does everyone think of this idea?

Something else that our parish used to do was partner with the local music club to offer what was called “Cathedral Series,” a concert series featuring sacred classical music, mainly pipe organ, instrumental ensembles, and vocal soloists and ensembles. It was a beautiful series.

But then our parish was thrust into the situation with the openly gay pipe organist, which I believe was engineered by either that person, or by a gay activist organization. The result was that our parish is now blacklisted by the musicians and the music organizations in our city because we fired the openly-gay musician (when he was hired, he led the diocese to believe that he was celibate). So I doubt that the Catholic churches in our city would be able to host such a concert series because the musicians are tight and they don’t want to be scabs. Sigh. I’m not even sure that the musicians in this area would be willing to play/sing at any Catholic Church in this area. Sigh again.

In fact, the “gay scandal” might be the reason why we have no luck finding classical musicians who play pipe organ and know anything about chant and polyphony. Here’s my advice to those of you who do have this kind of music in your parishes: don’t tick off the gay community in your city, or you will have nothing but old lady pianists.
 
Cat said:
I think you raise an excellent point, namely, that there should be other opportunities for Catholics to praise God and make music outside of Mass.

The problem is, what form do these opportunities take? Could you please describe how your parish does this? Do you offer concerts or a concert series? Or is there a Praise and Worship “service” done perhaps on Sunday afternoon, or during the week? Or perhaps during the summer, do you do outdoor concerts featuring local Catholic rock bands or other Catholic soloists/groups?

I would be very interested in how other parishes offer their members contemporary music, including not only rock, but also praise music (e.g., Sandy Patti, Steve Green, etc.–these are examples of singers who do the styles of music that I cam calling “praise”), and other styles of Christian music deemed “not appropriate for Mass.”

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut and ideas!

I visited a Catholic Church once that did something I really liked. After the Mass (OF, very reverent), while most of the people were leaving, a few dozen people in the congregation gathered around the piano, and the pianist, who was very good, played a number of contemporary Christian songs, and those gathered around sang with all their hearts. Of course, I asked, “What’s going on? Is this the choir practice?” And they told me that this was their “praise time.”

I really, really liked this! I enjoy playing contemporary piano pieces, and I am an excellent accompanist, so I have thought about asking Father if I can start something like this up in our parish. I’m sure it would be small at first, but I think that as word got around, it would grow. I think it would also meet a need for “fellowship and friends.” I’m guessing that the group might eventually start going out after the Praise Time.

The problem is, that there is a small group of people who insist that the time after Mass should be silent so that they can pray. Our church has a 24/7 Adoration Chapel where those people could go to pray after Mass, but it is a short walk away from the main building, and it would be a hardship for some of the older folks to take that walk, not to mention that it would be unpleasant to walk over to the Chapel in inclement weather. One possibility would be to delay the “Praise Time” until fifteen minutes after the Mass, which, from what I understand, is the time suggested for prayer after Mass by those who follow this practice. I think that would be reasonable and practical.

What does everyone think of this idea?

Something else that our parish used to do was partner with the local music club to offer what was called “Cathedral Series,” a concert series featuring sacred classical music, mainly pipe organ, instrumental ensembles, and vocal soloists and ensembles. It was a beautiful series.

But then our parish was thrust into the situation with the openly gay pipe organist, which I believe was engineered by either that person, or by a gay activist organization. The result was that our parish is now blacklisted by the musicians and the music organizations in our city because we fired the openly-gay musician (when he was hired, he led the diocese to believe that he was celibate). So I doubt that the Catholic churches in our city would be able to host such a concert series because the musicians are tight and they don’t want to be scabs. Sigh. I’m not even sure that the musicians in this area would be willing to play/sing at any Catholic Church in this area. Sigh again.

In fact, the “gay scandal” might be the reason why we have no luck finding classical musicians who play pipe organ and know anything about chant and polyphony. Here’s my advice to those of you who do have this kind of music in your parishes: don’t tick off the gay community in your city, or you will have nothing but old lady pianists.
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Yes we have musicals and plays several times a year.

I am not tracking though the gay references above. I don’t think our music in liturgy issues have anything to do with the “gay scandal.”

If we had an openly-corrupt recalcitrant accountant in our Church’s finance committee, would we be wrong to fire him/her?

Let’s not drag “gay” into this thread. There are only like 15 other ones this week.
 
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